Tier List Speculation

[GP&B]

Wait, you mean characters with Z-tethers might have to actually consider other options besides Z-tethers to recover

This game's getting too hard

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Wait, you mean characters with Z-tethers might have to actually consider other options besides Z-tethers to recover

This game's getting too hard

For real, let's all go back to Brawl until Smash4. I mean the only reason we were playing this is because it was new and shiny and my favorite brawl characters were finally broken OP gdlk anyways, right?

(That's seriously the vibe I get from way too many people)

 

[trash?]

Welp, way to ruin something amazing. I hope all the 3.5 downloads come with tissue boxes for all the crybabies you just catered to.

I would like any preceding and proceeding salt-producer to thank this user for making them sound reasonable by comparison

 

[Phan7om]

My only hope is that the PMDT doesnt go back on their word and change it back to 3, stay strong guys you're doing the right thing.

 

[BleachigoZX]

You guys need to learn how to edgeguard tethers, it isn't too hard.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I'e heard that dumb **** repeated so often that I feel you must be a troll. Show me videos of someone who consistently smacks down tethers and I will post a video of myself eating a whole Wii.

Only clause is that it can't be vs. somedumbnoob420.

 

[mimgrim]

The salt is real. On both sides.

 

[Strong Badam]

You guys need to learn how to edgeguard tethers, it isn't too hard.

Most people I hear this from use Tether characters. XD

 

[Hylian]

Lucas' shield pressure is worse than Fox's, FYI. I think Lucario is legitimately the only character who is better against shields than Fox, mostly because he can cancel his stuff into a command grab.

Lucario actually isn't very good at shield pressuring lol. Most of his stuff is minus on shield except like tippered fsmash afaik and probably upsmash, and nothing he has combos into his command grab on shield, it can always be rolled or spotdodged out of. Lucario uses mix-ups for shield pressure, they are definitely not frame safe, especially not as frame safe as fox's.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I'm just glad my character can get wrecked by Fox even more when I'm coming back to the stage by Shine like most everyone else.

Yeah, ledge regrabs with tethers were pretty dumb...

Sure am glad...

 

[Scuba Steve]

Gee, I hope my main doesn't get nerfed.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

we're back to "nerf? but, fox exists!!!"

 

[kaizo13]

not "nerf"...."redesign"
different concept/goal

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

we're back to "nerf? but, fox exists!!!"

I can make a post about being sad about being ShinedBlind. It's not like I'm saying DON'T NERF 'CAUSE FOX

 

[shairn]

Shinespike really is the worst feeling ever.
PMDT can you please edit the shine sound to Fox apologizing for being a jerk

 

[Ace55]

Man, looking forward to 3.5 now. Although I suspect it means Charizard's recovery is also taking a hit.

Now Wario, the only reason his recovery works is because of his aerial manouverability (and waft for emergencies).

This will be interesing.

 

[Rᴏb]

not "nerf"...."redesign"
different concept/goal

Totally not a cop out.

 

[Paradoxium]

I hope Pikachu's recovery doesn't get nerfed, he is one of the few characters who deserves a good recovery.

 

[Zx2963]

I hope Pikachu's recovery doesn't get nerfed, he is one of the few characters who deserves a good recovery.

How can you nerf that? It isn't different then Melees

 

[Deleted member]

I thiiiiiiiiink pikachus up b in pm has less landing lag than melee... someone could confirm or deny this.

oh and his side b auto grabs ledges like in brawl, I don't know if it did that in melee either.

 

[Zx2963]

I thiiiiiiiiink pikachus up b in pm has less landing lag than melee... someone could confirm or deny this.

oh and his side b auto grabs ledges like in brawl, I don't know if it did that in melee either.

It always depended on the angle which you landed on, hence why you could have 1 frame of landing lag in Melee if you landed at a perfect angle to the ground

 

[Ace55]

Between side-B and QA cancelling Pikachu's recovery is definitely better than Melee.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Shinespike really is the worst feeling ever.
PMDT can you please edit the shine sound to Fox apologizing for being a jerk

Then when you die <50% Fox can apologize profusely by Multi-shining

 

[steelguttey]

how about whenever someone picks fox the wii explodes

 

[CyberZixx]

Nah, it just sends a shock up the gamecube controller of whomever picked Fox.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Just a hypothetical question; say that shine had about a +20 degree angle on airborne opponents only, allowing some good DI to actually save most characters from a shine spike unless Fox went deep for it. Maybe if that wasn't enough it could have a lower BKB in exchange for some KBG.
Would the combo potential be an even greater boon than the spike? I'd assume it wouldn't juggle or anything, since you could DI back down to about horizontal if you wanted to, but I'm sure Fox could naturally pull more followups into usmash or something.
Would Fox mains whine about it? Would everyone else whine about it? Maybe both?

 

[Frost | Odds]

You guys need to learn how to edgeguard tethers, it isn't too hard.

depends on the tether, and who's doing the edgeguarding.

Edgeguarding Samus as someone who can go low is piss easy

Edgeguarding Ivysaur is next to impossible with most of the cast. You pretty much need a huge disjointed sex kick that semispikes, and also the ability to go really low.

 

[JOE!]

Man, looking forward to 3.5 now. Although I suspect it means Charizard's recovery is also taking a hit.

I dont see why Zard's would get nerfed. Sure he can get a lot of distance, but each of the recovery methods (Jumping, Gliding, Up B, Wavebounce Heatwave) all can be intercepted rather easily if the opponent is reactive. At least his glide is -fair- in that if he is hit from it he loses his jumps (Unlike Pit), and doesnt get to Up B -> Glide, or any other special recovery horizontally again (MK)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You guys need to learn how to edgeguard tethers, it isn't too hard.

make sure you put in your pm main so we can all see which tether character you play!

Spoiler

he plays zss

 

[BleachigoZX]

Ugh, you post documentary melee crybabies. You grab the ledge, let go and throw out an attack. Every tether character except Lucas, Samus and Link (3 characters that deserve slight, slight nerfs waaaaayyyy before someone like ZSS, Olimar and Ivysaur gets nerfed) dies to this and doesn't even get a second or third chance at grabbing the ledge.

It's whatever, I'll just main some other busted character the PMDT is too unorganized and stupid to nerf.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Olimar's recovery, isn't even good enough to group him with zss and ivy.

EDIT: He's like, the only one that doesn't need this nerf.

 

[CORY]

Would Fox mains whine about it?

yes.

Would everyone else whine about it?

maybe.

just in regards to changing the knockback angle. making it have kbg would really alter a lot of what fox is, and that's difficult to say if it would be for the better.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Ugh, you post documentary melee crybabies. You grab the ledge, let go and throw out an attack. Every tether character except Lucas, Samus and Link (3 characters that deserve slight, slight nerfs waaaaayyyy before someone like ZSS, Olimar and Ivysaur gets nerfed) dies to this and doesn't even get a second or third chance at grabbing the ledge.

It's whatever, I'll just main some other busted character the PMDT is too unorganized and stupid to nerf.

It's only z-tethers that are limited to once per airtime, if I'm not mistaken.
So, indulge me and explain; why is the laggier ledge jump a meaningful nerf to characters that apparently just get swatted every single time? Either they get knocked away every time and the ledge jump doesn't matter in the slightest, or they consistently get to the ledge, so it does. You can't claim both.

 

[Mera Mera]

Lucario actually isn't very good at shield pressuring lol. Most of his stuff is minus on shield except like tippered fsmash afaik and probably upsmash, and nothing he has combos into his command grab on shield, it can always be rolled or spotdodged out of. Lucario uses mix-ups for shield pressure, they are definitely not frame safe, especially not as frame safe as fox's.

Fox's shield pressure even when played perfectly can also be escaped with a buffered roll afaik. Shine -> grab is also not a true combo on shield, but still works often because they are afraid to roll and find out Fox only committed to shine or didn't commit at all. The largest gap between last frame of shield stun and soonest frame of next possible hit still matters though because of other out of shield options. I'm not really sure who has tighter gaps, but I'd guess you're right and it's Fox.
Edit: I suppose it's another story if you can literally react to Lucario's command grab, but afaik this isn't likely... it hits frame 11 and I'm not sure what frame you could reasonably identify the command grab. I suppose it might be relevant for those with the best of the best reaction times.

Personally I think the main reason there is any argument for why Lucario might be better against shields is that he can down b either direction mid "combo" on shield if he predicts a roll, and even in the case where Lucario guesses wrong, the person pressured still has to be afraid of down b supered -> reverse f-smash and possibly down b supered -> down smash depending on spacing when they see the down b (assuming he has a charge).

That said, I'm not convinced Lucario's shield pressure is better, since double/triple shine is ridiculous (namely because it's so non committal). I'm not really sure which is better. Either way though, I personally think Lucario's mix ups on shield are more interesting/have more thinking involved (for both players), and thus I also think it's super well designed. I also personally think that Fox is notably better than Lucario overall.

 

[BleachigoZX]

It's only z-tethers that are limited to once per airtime, if I'm not mistaken.
So, indulge me and explain; why is the laggier ledge jump a meaningful nerf to characters that apparently just get swatted every single time? Either they get knocked away every time and the ledge jump doesn't matter in the slightest, or they consistently get to the ledge, so it does. You can't claim both.

Before you had to jump out and fight the tethers offstage, now the entire dynamic is gone in exchange for a relatively guaranteed ledge punish. There used to be risk, now everyone can edgeguard them without risking anything. I can't wait to eat waveland down smashes every time I recover low. I could understand why you would want to limit Samus, Lucas and Link (because they have exceptionally powerful recoveries) but this nerf is dragging down characters that don't have as many options as those 3.

If this is about ZSS, just take away the refreshing down B, even the ZSS mains thinks it's a little too much for her to have a 3rd jump you can just win back for being hit. On top of her laser nerf, she's gonna be a lot worse off than she already is.

 

[Axrz]

If this is about ZSS, just take away the refreshing down B, even the ZSS mains thinks it's a little too much for her to have a 3rd jump you can just win back for being hit. On top of her laser nerf, she's gonna be a lot worse off than she already is.

Who said anything about a laser nerf?

And please don't speak for all of us, thanks.

 

[shairn]

Before you had to jump out and fight the tethers offstage, now the entire dynamic is gone in exchange for a relatively guaranteed ledge punish. There used to be risk, now everyone can edgeguard them without risking anything. I can't wait to eat waveland down smashes every time I recover low. I could understand why you would want to limit Samus, Lucas and Link (because they have exceptionally powerful recoveries) but this nerf is dragging down characters that don't have as many options as those 3.

If this is about ZSS, just take away the refreshing down B, even the ZSS mains thinks it's a little too much for her to have a 3rd jump you can just win back for being hit. On top of her laser nerf, she's gonna be a lot worse off than she already is.

So they have to be edge guarded like regular recoveries. Fantastic!

 

[BleachigoZX]

Who said anything about a laser nerf?

And please don't speak for all of us, thanks.

In the current test build her laser is a fireball, not a transcendent laser. It clashes and dissipates with other projectiles now.

So they have to be edge guarded like regular recoveries. Fantastic!

They aren't regular recoveries tho, that's probably why you're having such a hard time punishing them. Tether characters only have a limited number of tether regrabs and most of them don't have another way of grabbing to the edge besides the tether. There are specific angles and distances tied to these special tethers too (Z-tethers are silly and should be nerfed to a 1 times use imo, it only hits the characters with exceptional recoveries) and the new nerf is also limiting and already limited ledge stalling option unique to the special tether characters.

 

[GP&B]

They aren't regular recoveries tho, that's probably why you're having such a hard time punishing them. Tether characters only have a limited number of tether regrabs and most of them don't have another way of grabbing to the edge besides the tether. There are specific angles and distances tied to these special tethers too (Z-tethers are silly and should be nerfed to a 1 times use imo, it only hits the characters with exceptional recoveries) and the new nerf is also limiting and already limited ledge stalling option unique to the special tether characters.

So we do at least agree that Z-tethers, being auxilliary as they are to those characters, definitely needed the limitation (it worked for Melee after all). To me, Z-tethers needed this more than anything. We can talk about up special tethers separately since I feel they're a much different case.

 

[trash?]

this needs to be repeated a million times over: recovery nerfs isn't just a balance decision, it's also a design decision. currently, tethers are boring; you airdodge a direction, and you automatically attach to the ledge upon hitting attack. even when punished, you mostly end up getting a bit of damage at worst, and you're often pushed towards the center of the stage from getup attacks. considering your other option in this scenario is "be dead", this is always better than not tethering in at all, because every other option leaves room for more edgeguarding.

with a limit and a more varied punish upon being ledgehogged, recovery mixups get to be more interesting. obviously, because the reach is so good, you're still going to use it, but now that you're so easy to break into if the opponent ledgehogs, committing to the whole thing isn't free. from what the PMDT has mentioned, you're still getting your jumps back, and your other recovery options, like ivysaur's dair. do you hop off your tether as lucas, and use your rather mobile double-jump to get back on, possibly using your downb to stall for time along the way? do you try to punish their immediate tendency to react with a getup ledge attack, and put yourself in edgeguarding position? or, do you scare the opponent into assuming the former two things, and get the ledge to do whatever you want?

that's exactly the kind of scenario they want. by virtue of having something as good as a tether, you still have quite the advantage compared to other recoveries, but now, you have to apply it. that's exactly what these recovery changes are supposed to do.