Tier List Speculation

[Rᴏb]

Physics on the ledge are farther than Melee.

What does this even mean?

 

[Phan7om]

If Melee purists are going to be mad, and invulnerability is changing. Either that means everyone can do an invincible ledgedash/its a lot easier to, or no one can. xP

 

[Loli Bacon]

I'm not saying that it's too good - I'm saying that it just shouldn't be a thing at all. I think that we can all agree, more or less, that regardless of the strength of the strategy, it's not something that's fun to watch or to play against.

Since when has the fun factor for the opponent ever meant anything?

- "Combos aren't fun to be in"
Combos are fun to do, however.

- "Kirbyciding isn't fun to play against"
It's fun to do, however. It's not good, so learn how to deal with it or stay bad. Who cares what spectators want to see, they aren't the ones competing.

 

[Mikarugi]

Since when has the fun factor for the opponent ever meant anything?

- "Combos aren't fun to be in"
Combos are fun to do, however.

- "Kirbyciding isn't fun to play against"
It's fun to do, however. It's not good, so learn how to deal with it or stay bad. Who cares what spectators want to see, they aren't the ones competing.

What the spectators want to see is actually very important if you want to competitive side of PM to grow, it's one of the main reasons Brawl's competitive scene isn't as large as Melee, Brawl is very boring to watch.

 

[Phan7om]

But d3/wario/ganon ciding is okay? smh
Edit: this post makes more sense if you read previous pages

 

[mimgrim]

Ganonciding is awesome. Wuchu talking bout.

Kirbyciding is pretty stupid against those who don't know how to counter it. One time for lolz I switched to Kirby against someone I usually lose to, I Kirbycided all 4 of our stocks. xD

 

[Loli Bacon]

What the spectators want to see is actually very important if you want to competitive side of PM to grow, it's one of the main reasons Brawl's competitive scene isn't as large as Melee, Brawl is very boring to watch.

Actually, Brawl's competitive scene wasn't as large as melee because less people played it, and that's not because it's less fun to watch. It was less fun to play. Before people were actively streaming melee, people were still showing up to melee tournaments because they wanted to. People looked up and brought together their own competitive scene because it interested them. Nowadays people primarily get introduced via streams and tournaments but honestly the same premise applies; if a player truly wants to get into the game, they'll do it.

It's like someone saying "I want to learn the piano."; if you really wanted to, you would have started already.

 

[Phan7om]

Ganonciding is awesome. Wuchu talking bout.

Kirbyciding is pretty stupid against those who don't know how to counter it. One time for lolz I switched to Kirby against someone I usually lose to, I Kirbycided all 4 of our stocks. xD

I agree, all of the moves are fine im just surprised everyone only looks at Kirby cuz 1 guy can somehow pull that off consistently in tourmanemt. Thats why earlier i sorta compared it to Falcon Punch, if somehow someone could always pull that off in tourney im sure people would want that move nerfed too not knowing how bad and punishable the move actually is lol. Not saying its as bad as FP its an exaggerated example, but it falls into the same boat.

 

[Deleted member]

Part of the problem with kirby inhale is that he has a large amount of mobility during it, he has some armor frames iirc, and the angle of which he spits people out is REALLY REALLY good. When DDD spits people out offstage for example they go straight out, but kirby throws them down at a really easy angle to nair them or w/e.

Ganon ciding... well ganon is ganon, and I haven't ever seen a wario even attempt to "wario-cide"

 

[Loli Bacon]

Part of the problem with kirby inhale is that he has a large amount of mobility during it, he has some armor frames iirc, and the angle of which he spits people out is REALLY REALLY good. When DDD spits people out offstage for example they go straight out, but kirby throws them down at a really easy angle to nair them or w/e.

Ganon ciding... well ganon is ganon, and I haven't ever seen a wario even attempt to "wario-cide"

It's a shame Kirby can't suicide with fthrow and bthrow anymore. Then we'd have some real complaints, wouldn't we? :v

 

[Phan7om]

Kirby might have the best of the 4 but tbh its not that much better, and its normal grab armor like every other grab in the game not super armor or anything like that, getting rid of that im okay with tho, also having mashing out shoot you upwards from Kirby is also fine. Im just really talking to the people who think Inhale in general should totally be nerfed to ****

 

[mimgrim]

I agree, all of the moves are fine im just surprised everyone only looks at Kirby cuz 1 guy can somehow pull that off consistently in tourmanemt. Thats why earlier i sorta compared it to Falcon Punch, if somehow someone could always pull that off in tourney im sure people would want that move nerfed too not knowing how bad and punishable the move actually is lol. Not saying its as bad as FP its an exaggerated example, but it falls into the same boat.

Falcon needs more combos that finish into Falcon Punch. Best finisher ever lol.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a LOT better than the rest of them. Kirbys inhale is so insane that it IS kirbys entire game. The only good kirby is chudat because he abuses it so well.

It reminds me of ness. Suuuuuuuuure ness has all of these fancy DJC things and tons of useful aggression options... but do you know why Awestin is good? PK fire over centralizes the character, it is so much better than all of his other things. Same thing with kirbys ledge inhale camping.

 

[| Kailex |]

Its clear that kirby's inhale is better than all the suicide moves, it has very little endlag and kirby's recovery is good enough that he can come back from far away

 

[Phan7om]

They can get rid of Kirbyciding idc, people just need to know that not the only use for inhale, so nerfing that move completely would make it terribad. It only looks that much better because you've seen it more than the others. People just need to mash out when they're on stage, you come out of it pretty damn quickly and when offstage dont mash you trade stocks if your recovery doesnt suck. D3 and Ganon would force a stock trade, and possibly Wario if its not a character with good recovery in this game of Project Recovery. On top of that, being punishable as hell.

Its like, if people complained a lot about shine-spiking and said that the move should send them upwards like Falco or came out slower or something... im sure a lot of people would flip out knowing shine-spiking isnt the only use for his shine.

 

[mimgrim]

What if Kirby just insta transformed when he sucks up an opponent?

Is that even possible?

 

[Phan7om]

What if Kirby just insta transformed when he sucks up an opponent?

Is that even possible?

Im sure it is but that would make inhale completely useless onstage... like without kirbyciding that everyone thinks is the only use for inhale. Im sure everyones mind is blown trying to comprehend that lmao.

 

[Gust14]

Imo infinity combos (chain grabs, locks, grab releases etc...) as well as spammable moves are NOT fun to watch, or to receive and when you do them you feel as cheap as roxxanne putting on the red light...

 

[Ripple]

its a good thing we do have locks and chain grabs though, otherwise we would just have brawl type throws.

 

[Gust14]

its a good thing we do have locks and chain grabs though, otherwise we would just have brawl type throws.

Yeah I dont mind those (in fact, i like them). Just the infinite ones i dont like, thats why i said inifinty combos

 

[Mikarugi]

Actually, Brawl's competitive scene wasn't as large as melee because less people played it, and that's not because it's less fun to watch. It was less fun to play. Before people were actively streaming melee, people were still showing up to melee tournaments because they wanted to. People looked up and brought together their own competitive scene because it interested them. Nowadays people primarily get introduced via streams and tournaments but honestly the same premise applies; if a player truly wants to get into the game, they'll do it.

It's like someone saying "I want to learn the piano."; if you really wanted to, you would have started already.

that's why I said ONE of the main reasons, not THE main reason. Trust me when I say that if brawl was more enjoyable to watch you'd see a lot more people playing it. This is because "fun to play" is subjective, not a fact. Many people prefer brawl and some may not even know they do because it's so BORING to watch. Even before streams, people most likely showed up to those tournaments not only to play the game they love but to watch the high level play from the others. A game being viewer friendly is pretty important to it's competitive scene. I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, you are very much correct, but viewers are just more important than you may think.

 

[didds]

Squirtle imo is nothing more then a gimmicky character.

Couple of gimmicks sure, but he can be played extremely solidly without them and do well. If he was only gimmicks then he would always get destroyed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, don't underestimate the neutral game, which is something that Squirtle has arguably the best of.

 

[didds]

If they really were that strong, they'd be getting at least a few placings. Chances are they're all mid at best.

If cigarettes were really that bad, they'd be illegal. Chances are they're slightly harmful at best.

sorry dub post

 

[victinivcreate1]

Snake isn't top tier. Having a losing MU spread of like 40% of the cast aren't the traits of a top tier character.

Many characters would be higher on a tier list then Snake despite them not having the tourney results to back it up. Which is mostly due to the players themselves who play them not being good enough imo

Yes sir Mr. Pro. But if Snake is bad, how are you beating Armada, reverse 3-0ing M2K, etc?

Not trying to say you're bad (you're a god in my book) but Snake's general character design definitely helped out. You were the first to beat Armada's Pit at that. People consider Pit to be OP. I think Snake is definitely top tier. Lose to low tiers fine. But no one uses low tiers in tourney because they get wrecked by other top and high tiers.

 

[| Kailex |]

Well, marth gives snake a really hard time

 

[Zx2963]

I'd like to see a nerf Mario buff Luigi patch. I don't see how its fair that Fox and Falco being clones top tier, yet Luigi and Mario being clones not in the same or even close tier

Yes sir Mr. Pro. But if Snake is bad, how are you beating Armada, reverse 3-0ing M2K, etc?

Not trying to say you're bad (you're a god in my book) but Snake's general character design definitely helped out. You were the first to beat Armada's Pit at that. People consider Pit to be OP. I think Snake is definitely top tier. Lose to low tiers fine. But no one uses low tiers in tourney because they get wrecked by other top and high tiers.

PM is all about knowing matchups, you can lose to the scrubbiest player because they pick a character you've never played against. I think Armada lost not because Snake is top tier, but because he didn't know all the ins and outs of the matchup (like ChuDat beating Armada).

 

[| Kailex |]

Everyone is underestimating luigi, you dont know how much I suffer.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The only good kirby is chudat because he abuses it so well.

Shoots.
He didn't pull it off against nobody good at CEO, right?

 

[Bleck]

Since when has the fun factor for the opponent ever meant anything?

- "Combos aren't fun to be in"
Combos are fun to do, however.

Smash is also the only fighting game where you have significant ability to disrupt combos. This is why it's better than other fighting games - because it's supposed to function in such a way where your opponent can do skillful things against you, but you're rarely (supposed) to be in a position where you're incapable of responding to anything that they can possibly do.

- "Kirbyciding isn't fun to play against"
It's fun to do, however. It's not good, so learn how to deal with it or stay bad. Who cares what spectators want to see, they aren't the ones competing.

So you admit that it's not fun to play against, and that nobody likes watching it, and that it's not a good strategy anyway (thereby implying that Kirby players won't really miss it). This means that everybody is happy if it gets changed, but you still think it shouldn't be because... 'git gud, hur'?

 

[| Kailex |]

Basically, kirbyciding isnt that op or too good, you just have to learn how to counter it. And why do you think loli bacon is implying that? Didnt he just say that its fun to do? Ofcourse people will miss it.

The whole point of this conversation is that kirby's inhale is not op (even while still being significantly better than all suicide moves)

 

[Vashimus]

Smash isn't even the best fighting game of its era. If you find yourself rarely capable of dealing with the opponent's offensive options, you really should work on learning proper defense.

 

[Bleck]

Basically, kirbyciding isnt that op or too good

It has been noted several times that the complaint being made is that not that it's overpowered. The complaint has nothing to do with whether or not it's overpowered. The complaint has nothing to do with whether or not it's overpowered.

The complaint has nothing to do with whether or not it's overpowered.

 

[didds]

So this argument is old, do people really think squirtle is just a giant gimmick?

 

[Zx2963]

So this argument is old, do people really think squirtle is just a giant gimmick?

Yes

 

[didds]

Yes

And why is that?
cuz ermor and side B'z
can't tech bubble?

 

[Zx2963]

And why is that?
cuz ermor and side B'z
can't tech bubble?

In my opinion he's more annoying them a taunt cancelling Sonic. Pretty much that tiny sound when you get hit by his side-B irritate me

 

[shairn]

I don't think Squirtle is gimmicky, only bad Squirtles are. He has much better options than SideB, which should only really be used for punishing. withdraw in neutral accomplishes nothing and is more likely to put Squirtle in a bad position.

 

[BluntedMask]

Just use squirtle's up smash and don't let them down.

 

[Terotrous]

The problem with Kirbycide lies 100% in the fact that he has so much aerial manueverability after grabbing you. To Ganoncide or Dededecide, you have to go off stage for the scoop (and with Ganon, if you miss, you're dead). Kirby, however, can do it onstage as long as he's remotely near the edge for almost no risk, and if he lands it it's a free kill that he can usually even come back from. With that completely broken risk / reward balance of course Kirbies are going to spam that to no end.

He needs to go back to having virtually no aerial mobility after doing it, so he'd have to go offstage with it to grab you. That would be fine.

 

[thatoneguy1]

i think we are all forgetting donkey kongs grab suicide