Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

QD attack nerf in 3.6 was cow excrement.

Just ... no. I'd like my second most crucial launcher back, thanks. A lot of conversions on semi-floaties just turned into throw -> hit -> neutral, or throw -> nothing. Sigh.

 

[Nausicaa]

Umbreon the people's champ?

I think this should be done very carefully though. Although the way the PMDT has been doing changes it looks like that won't be a problem.

Truuuu dat
Basically hitting what Umby said right on the head, nailing it down.
Umby will fit well in the mix. Always cool to see patches going forward.

I still have all the trouble in the world following conversations in here, and never really got an answer to my question, but all is well.



Wall-Clinging seems like a really messy thing to me. Someone grab a broom on that one too and clean it up. Either by explaining its function and mechanics and use to me, or why it feels like it might be messy.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I wish it was harder to wall cling by accident.

Got my unalert ass killed way too often.

 

[JOE!]

 

[tasteless gentleman]

i want to buff the conversions of characters like link and ike in a way that is slight but helps round out their losing MUs a bit. i want to make overly linear characters like ddd dk bowser be more dynamic so they have more than zero counterplay in the face of adversity. i want to do very slight but global buffs to characters like kirby that dont really have any issues and end up underwhelming anyway. i want to tone down characters with exceptional option coverage like fox and mk, although very slightly and much less than other people. i want to take good characters like falco and sheik and maybe clean them up slightly in a way that isnt really a buff or nerf. and then i want to start calling characters done and close them off from further modifying sans unforeseen special circumstances.

I agree with this.

The kirby thing though, from what i understand, isnt kirby suppose to do what the opponent does, but better? Lets impliment that more so inhale suicide isn't such an option after kirby takes the lead. Give him some more air mobility too.

Also, i hate brawl - DrinkingFood but there are some very cool options for heavies and it honestly feels pretty balanced (or maybe undeveloped is correct) like DK's barrels and ganons punch projectile. I just feel like being tame with heavies only leads to them being sub par and they NEED something. What that is...i dont know, but i know it involves neutral game and polarizing match ups.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Heavies having [something] doesn't mean that much when everybody gains crazy **** in B-. "Everybody has something" isn't how tier placing or viability works, it's matchup based. You really do have a kind of tunnel vision for heavies don't you

 

[PlateProp]

Step 1: remove all heavy characters
Step 2: use now open slots to put in not heavy characters that are cooler
Step 3: ????
Step 4: biggest pm tourney turnouts in years

Now we just wait and see if pmdt has balls

 

[Soft Serve]

Lanky for 4.0

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Heavies having [something] doesn't mean that much when everybody gains crazy **** in B-. "Everybody has something" isn't how tier placing or viability works, it's matchup based. You really do have a kind of tunnel vision for heavies don't you

I mean I am really attempting to be less arguementative about things, so i'll simply say thank you and ask what makes the MU spread of heavies so bad?

Step 1: remove all heavy characters
Step 2: use now open slots to put in not heavy characters that are cooler
Step 3: ????
Step 4: biggest pm tourney turnouts in years

Now we just wait and see if pmdt has balls

It would be interesting to say the least.

 

[dirtboy345]

Wall-Clinging seems like a really messy thing to me. Someone grab a broom on that one too and clean it up. Either by explaining its function and mechanics and use to me, or why it feels like it might be messy.

From a Squirtle perspective, wall clinging can be used to stall for a couple seconds, mostly used as a recovery mixup. It can be used when you go deep to kill someone, and stall on the stage real quick so your recovery won't save them. Also wait on the wall and walljump fair. Squirtle can also use it for his invincible ledge stall.

 

[Nausicaa]

From a Squirtle perspective, wall clinging can be used to stall for a couple seconds, mostly used as a recovery mixup. It can be used when you go deep to kill someone, and stall on the stage real quick so your recovery won't save them. Also wait on the wall and walljump fair. Squirtle can also use it for his invincible ledge stall.

Basically what I came up with, and my oh my is that niche and quirky. Seems like something that would be better off attached to his Side-B or something.
You summed up that stuff well. Anything else it works for? For other clingers too it's basically the same deal, but something else for them perhaps?

 

[Soft Serve]

It's pretty good for diddy because recovering vertically from just below the ledge is diddy's worst situation to recover from. It allows him to stall out drop down aerial approaches, give him some time to wait out ledge invincibility, and if he has double jump and a banana in hand still, gives him so much control over when and where he gains hid height. Being able to wall cling, wait out invincibility, jump agt up to clear ledge then double jump up b (or airdodge, safer if they try to re agt the banana back at you).

 

[dirtboy345]

Basically what I came up with, and my oh my is that niche and quirky. Seems like something that would be better off attached to his Side-B or something.
You summed up that stuff well. Anything else it works for? For other clingers too it's basically the same deal, but something else for them perhaps?

It's niche and quirky, but so is squirtle, it's just stupid how easy it is to do it on accident, my biggest fear would be that PMDT would remove it because "design reasons" or something because it would be a fairly decent nerf

 

[Warzenschwein]

what do you mean you're not looking forward to squirtle's removal in 3.7 because dsmash shouldn't combo

 

[Nausicaa]

It can be used when you go deep to kill someone, and stall on the stage real quick so your recovery won't save them.

It's pretty good for diddy because recovering vertically from just below the ledge is diddy's worst situation to recover from.

I like this stuff.

I wish it was harder to wall cling by accident.
Got my unalert *** killed way too often.

it's just stupid how easy it is to do it on accident

This is why somebody needs to grab a broom.

I would just dust it all over into their Side-Bs (Sheik/Lucario too) like the way Lucario used to have it with Up-B... but less silly because that was silly and it would be really nice if it was Side-B across the board or something.

Wall jumps and wall riding in general is too finicky that this makes a mess.

It's good to have, confirmed.
It's messy confirmed.
Someone grab a broom.

 

[Soft Serve]

I like this stuff.




This is why somebody needs to grab a broom.

I would just dust it all over into their Side-Bs (Sheik/Lucario too) like the way Lucario used to have it with Up-B... but less silly because that was silly and it would be really nice if it was Side-B across the board or something.

Wall jumps and wall riding in general is too finicky that this makes a mess.

It's good to have, confirmed.
It's messy confirmed.
Someone grab a broom.

Ew no

I very very rarely wall cling by accident and doing that would be awful. The only times I happens to me on accident is if I dj too high and hold in too much when rrefreshing ledge invincibility, and then I normally can react and wall jump bair to hit people trying to punish that

 

[Nausicaa]

I died with Squirtle just last week by FFing downward to grab the ledge to get invincibility, and got smacked because I wall-clinged instead.
Ews do indeed have remedies.
Precision required on this one I suppose.

 

[dirtboy345]

I died with Squirtle just last week by FFing downward to grab the ledge to get invincibility, and got smacked because I wall-clinged instead.
Ews do indeed have remedies.
Precision required on this one I suppose.

You work around it to the point where you shouldn't be doing it on accident. But it can still happen during ledgedashes and such, obviously being detrimental

 

[Life]

Accidental wall clings usually happen because you're holding in at a spot where you're too high to grab the ledge, which may be a holdover from Melee where there was no reason to stop holding in when you're in that position right above your ledge grab box.

I don't remember the last time I was seriously injured because of a wall cling and I mained Squirtle from 3.5 until around the time 3.6 full dropped.

 

[Nausicaa]

Accidental wall clings usually happen because you're holding in at a spot where you're too high to grab the ledge.

That's the one.
Where is the wall-cling box anyway? Is it simply connected to a character's hurtbox?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

 

[Soft Serve]

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

put m2 in S/A and I agree almost 100%.

Edit: what in specifics make you feel that the ones in E/F tier are bad enough by enough of a degree to have thier own tiers, instead of just being at the bottom of D (or a larger e)?

 

[Tomaster]

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

I haven't seen a reasonable list on this thread until now.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

"Precision required on this one I suppose"

You can say that again...

 

[Nausicaa]

"Precision required on this one I suppose"

You can say that again...

Is Squirtle about to Wall-Jump, grab the Ledge, fast fall, or be closer to the wall in any way while already being near the wall?
CLING IT
THE FOOT
THE FOOT WAS TOUCHING I SWEAR WE GOTTA STICK TO THE WALL

Imma edit Odds list and do my own out of it

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

This is where I would have split the upper tiers, because TL and Wario are jerks too.

I like the general split-area where Falco/GW are, though there are some from the GW-Peach tier that I'd bumped into their group.

I removed the Ooze from the game because it's Ooze.

Kirby and Ivy swapped because Ivy doesn't do anything but cool combos that he rarely gets a chance to do.

Obviously there's some bumping around stuff, but this is a good base from my perspective too. In terms of where general clumps are and how you split it up.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Edit: what in specifics make you feel that the ones in E/F tier are bad enough by enough of a degree to have thier own tiers, instead of just being at the bottom of D (or a larger e)?

D tier has meaningful approach mixups via DD, crossup aerials, tomahawk grabs and the like. E tier has these significantly less so, and are gross combo food on top of not being able to approach.
F tier can't approach and has a number of other major weaknesses such as weak/DI dependent combo games, extremely fragile recoveries, and lack of checks for DD.

 

[steelguttey]

i think its impossible for kirby to be low tier because he has good matchups with high tiers like sheik and lucario

 

[Doctor Aids]

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

Ordered tiers or nah?

 

[Zefklop]

you guys clearly have never played this game

(unordered tiers)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ordered tiers or nah?

yes.

Zefklop you da real MVP

 

[Saproling]

Ivy doesn't do anything but cool combos that he rarely gets a chance to do.

>HE

 

[nimigoha]

Junebug is a scrub. Mine's better.

Definitely my favourite list so far.

But I don't think Charizard and DK are significantly worse than anyone in D tier enough to be in E.

DK can approach. Not sure why people think he can't. He basically works very similarly to Roy in neutral, their moves are comparable in utility. Except DK's jab is more like Falcon's, especially with regard to Nair>Jab combo.

Or like the classic Fair>Dtilt that is so popular in Melee for Marth, you can Nair>Dtilt with DK.

Just a little thought.

 

[Spralwers]

Too many tiers for me (with enough characters in B tier or below). It makes the game look horribly unbalanced with lots of 70-30 MUs or worse. Pretty much looking like melee all over again. I think the game is well balanced enough to not warrant anything worse than C tier, and no more than a couple characters in S tier, but if people feel otherwise I can't really argue.

 

[FreeGamer]

i think its impossible for kirby to be low tier because he has good matchups with high tiers like sheik and lucario

Not to mention Snake, Ike, and arguably ZSS. He does have somewhat more flaws than strengths, but 2nd worst in the game sounds a little extreme to me. :/

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Not to mention Snake, Ike, and arguably ZSS. He does have somewhat more flaws than strengths, but 2nd worst in the game sounds a little extreme to me. :/

I wouldn't exactly call Snake a high tier at all, in fact I think he's one of the weaker characters in the game (bottom half). He just loses too hardly to characters like Fox and Sheik and doesn't really destroy anyone hard enough to make up for it. I could be mistaken, but I don't think his absurd (and hype) punish game is enough to compensate for his poor neutral. I think MU experience is a large part of fighting him.

But you're definitely right, Kirby beats him and it's hilarious. Second worst in the game seems very strange to me too. How does Kirby do against Rob and Diddy? I've never played against them with Kirby.

 

[DMG]

Snake neutral is uh weird. It's hard to qualify it as good or bad because his general setup is kind of unique.

He has enough jank to like **** out a win from outta nowhere. That makes you at least a decent character imo

 

[FreeGamer]

I wouldn't exactly call Snake a high tier at all, in fact I think he's one of the weaker characters in the game (bottom half). He just loses too hardly to characters like Fox and Sheik and doesn't really destroy anyone hard enough to make up for it. I could be mistaken, but I don't think his absurd (and hype) punish game is enough to compensate for his poor neutral. I think MU experience is a large part of fighting him.

But you're definitely right, Kirby beats him and it's hilarious. Second worst in the game seems very strange to me too. How does Kirby do against Rob and Diddy? I've never played against them with Kirby.

ROB is pretty horrible, somewhere in the ballpark of 35-65. Diddy is kinda hard but not unbearable, I would say 40-60.

 

[CORY]

no more than a couple characters in S tier, but if people feel otherwise I can't really argue.

I still feel like people misuse s tier. I think people try to play it as a top tier, when it should really be "brawl mk aka no losing matchups and possibly counter several relevant characters."

 

[nimigoha]

Tier list using base opinions and zero matchup data!

Not a PMDT member, not a known player, fewer than 1000 SB posts so you probably won't take me seriously, just a guy with some opinions.

1. To put the letters in context, I'd call Fox an 8.5/10 character and Yoshi a 6. Arbitrary scale but hopefully adds a little bit of meaning and scope to the difference between top and bottom tier.

2. Some order in tiers, but I don't have comprehensive knowledge so arguing positions like +/- 4 placements is useless, although I want to hear opinions about things you think I'm completely off the mark with.

3. A+ tier I think could use a bit of toning down. These characters really have it all, even though they definitely have exploitable flaws.

4. A tier, maybe just a hint of tweaking. Some things I feel are a little too good right now, some things I could see being very good once optimized (Mewtwo's HC, his teleport cancel, Lucas's punish game, Lucario of course) but on the whole I don't see any "problems".

5. A- tier is just really solid. Maybe GW's Up B could use a bit of design change but that's a whole discussion on its own. Pikachu could definitely climb the ranks if his QAC is fully utilized but it's a very difficult thing to pull off consistently to the point where it's oppressive, and messing up can lead to death half the time...

6. B tier: This group is just missing something. Each character is generally fine but lacks a tool to really break through, like Ivy vs CC for example, or maybe Ness's recovery.

7. B- tier, this is where things start to fall off.

---Pit still feels incomplete to me, I firmly believe that he was overnerfed after 3.02 because of two of the world's best players representing him when he was a good character. Still working his way back up but has things that are still off. His Upsmash, his arrows, his Dtilt and Utilt... fix a few things and he's a solid character.

---Jigglypuff is still trying to figure out what to do. Her transition to PM is very very tough. On one hand, it's sensible to keep her playing like Melee Puff, but on the other her design is very very strange, and her playstyle struggles a bit more against some of the new characters. For the Melee top 8, when they "ported" over Fox and Falco and Sheik they were working with characters that were relatively complete, moveset-wise, outside of Chain. Falcon got buffs, Peach got buffs, Marth got a little bit of buffs, ICs got... that remains to be seen. But Jigglypuff has near-useless Specials outside of Rest. In a port where Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost and Peach Bomber all became actually good, we're left with Sing and Rollout.

---Charizard I'm iffy with his placement. I find his neutral to be strange because he has a great run speed but poor fall speed. He has far recoveries but they have little wiggle room and are commitments. He has strong kill options and good combo moves. I just feel like he's missing something. I don't know. Maybe he doesn't belong here but I certainly wouldn't put him higher than B tier.

---Yoshi... For no discernible reason he was gutted in 3.6. I found him a completely fine character and his recovery was smacked, his grabs were smacked, his weight was changed from PAL Melee to NTSC Melee. My favourite line in his 3.6 changelog is "Horizontal momentum: 0.125 -> 0.04" with regards to his aerial Egg Roll. It's terrible and it eats your jump, it's just not worth using and you're left with either use jump hight and end up way above stage, or drift more and then jump and you're recovering from below. Having an option like Squirtle's where you can Side B and then Up B (or for Yoshi's poor soul, double jump and maybe get an airdodge) but probably with more endlag after Side B. I'm not here to propose Yoshi changes, just saying I think he really needs some.

8. F(ix) Tier

--- Bowser's neutral is what holds him back, we all know this. He punishes hard, can kill here and there, but him getting in is tricky, and once he fails to do that he's just combo food. As easy as it would be to give him back his old crazy Dash Attack to let him crunch right through moves, it was pretty brain dead and I know that PMDT (now fortified by Odds) can and will do much better.

Well feel free to pick me apart, I'ill explain placings.

 

[InfinityCollision]

edit: nevermind, I misread