Tier List Speculation

[Ramz289]

Oh ****!! I can actually contribute something to the discussion :O :O :O

Ganon's recovery is not too bad. Float gives him some nice mixup, especially when you add b-reverse, b-turnaround, wavebounce into the mix. Some characters ignore that tho and just kinda go "n**ga F**K YO MIXUPS!! eat dis dair real quick"



Ok I didn't really contribute much but f**k it it's something

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle has no bkb (exaggeration, but you get the point) on like any move except throws. So bubble and throws are all Squritle gets against fastfallers at low percents. No guaranteed combos off throws either. Bubble is the same at all precents and is a auto tech chase starter (thankfully Squirtle is godlike at tech chasing). For throws, from my testing hydro up throw, it seems to start working around 30 percent with reasonable levels of difficulty (no tas). For any body who doesn't know (probably most people...), hydro throws are simply taking advantage of the absurd sliding that Squirtle can undergo while he throws somebody. Primarily talking about hydrograb (jump cancel grab during the late boost of shellshift), but is relevant with a dash grab (and jump cancel grab, but dash grab carries more momentum, comes grabs the same frame with jump squat, and only has 10 more frame of end lag). I haven't tested other DI's and what options Squirtle has against those, but it does work on DI away at 30 ish. So Squirtle being forced to tech chase isn't as bad as I initially thought.

Dtilt starts knocking down at 12 percent of both hits connect (14 if only the second hits). It doesn't really lead into anything but a tech chase though, and it can be asdi'd down and teched till 55 percent or so. Up tilt doesn't knock down till post 50 percent. Same with crawl tilt. Up smash has too much end lag to combo. Down smash knocks down at 0 and sets up a tech chase (and is good for tech chasing). Up air knocks down at 11 percent, but due to its short range I haven't done too much testing in this context. Unless you already got them popped up (which isn't what I'm trying to address here), the only way you are landing up air is a falling up air since you aren't getting followups of a rising up air. For falling up air to work, the fox really had to mess you up... Nair knock down post 50. Fair knocks down early, but it doesn't lead to anything but a tech chase. Dair has some potential, it appears to knock down around 30. Bair doesn't knock down early and isn't a launcher.

You can asdi down the first hit of dtilt and then shield the second no matter the percent because it has fixed kb, no one should ever be trying to tech it

 

[CORY]

Ganon's recovery isn't too bad, it just ends up being fairly linear through large chunks of it. Like, awk goes down at a specific angle a fixed distance and speed, so if you can get there and have a read, you cannot him out of it.

Float is a good stall and helps with mixups, but you're locked into at least 14 frames of commitment.

Both up and side b are pretty good as a recovery (other than up b's ledge grab box feeling a bit too close to his hand as he swipes at the end of the move...), but they both basically auto lose to good nairs and "hang on the ledge, wait for the move to start, bair him and regrab".

Like, individually, the pieces are kinda weak, but together they actually work pretty well and allow for enough options to not just be dead in the water on recovery.

Still annoyed by upb's hand swipe making it a huge pain to sweet spot effectively, though...

 

[FreeGamer]

We're changing characters that are frustrating to play against?

Cool. Change Samus and Yoshi when?

Whenever we remove G&W and Zelda from the game, disable Kirby's crouch, make Fox slower than Dedede, and have Diddy trip every time he pulls a Banana. :^)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

PlateProp

You don't need to tell me about that. 0 degree linking hit when?

 

[Bazkip]

Some screenshots to show what CORY 's talking about in regards to Ganon's ledge grab box

Spoiler

These might be slightly off due to camera angles but regardless it's clear that that's super close. It'd be nice if the box extended somewhat during that part of the animation.

 

[MTL Kyle]

New to this discussion but why is Peach so low in the tier list to everybody?

Because she suckzzzzz.

She got carried in Melee tierlists because of Armada, and now that he kinda dropped her and started picking up Fox, a lot of players are considering her 7th~8th.

In PM you have a bunch of impossible matchups for no reason and a lot of characters that, because of specific mechanics or recoveries, make her worse. (eg.: Tink, Snake, ROB, Ike, Zelda and maybe M2+Sonic)
She also gets outclassed by other characters (thanks PMDT!) in many aspects to the point you wonder if you should ever pick her up as a main/counterpick.

Also, if you are a Melee player, you have to adapt to the ****ty C-Stick mapping, which ****s you up in certain pressure strings, which is a giant turnoff.

But, IMO, she should remain untouched and be considered a counterpick character.

 

[MTL Kyle]

Not answering a whole bible of a throwaway account. I can't take seriously the opinion of someone that opts out of being identified, specially in a fighting game community. At this moment, to me, you are one of those that think Ness is the best character in 64 because your cousin learned how to do DJC combos to break your shield or asking why we don't play with items.

The arguments are bad and I don't wanna go into it. All I'm going to say is that you have to play the game more before arguing the way you are.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

T tasteless gentleman About polarizing matchups, I said Tink was a good character viability-wise from the standpoint that he has free matchups, not that it was good from a design perspective. He's incredibly frustrating to play against, but I don't think he's really a priority to change really.

So free match ups are not a problem?

 

[MTL Kyle]

So free match ups are not a problem?

It's all a matter of POV.
All ROB mains think their character is perfectly balanced and need no changes for example :^)

 

[tasteless gentleman]

It's all a matter of POV.
All ROB mains think their character is perfectly balanced and need no changes for example :^)

I was not refering to rob, thats my fault for not clarifying.
Toon link is the cancer that im referring to.

 

[Droß]

What's so horrible about Toon Link again? Should I go watch a few Lunchables VoDs and educate myself?

 

[Life]

What's so horrible about Toon Link again? Should I go watch a few Lunchables VoDs and educate myself?

He happens to hard counter a few characters, such as Bowser. Sort of a tier gatekeeper, if you will.

How to change him? Dunno, I don't understand the character well enough.

 

[_Chrome]

So free match ups are not a problem?

I can tell you without asking him that he means the free MUs aren't a good thing, but probably aren't as much of a problem as a Bowser main would make them out to be. From a Bowser's perspective, Tink would be a dumb character because he wins against fatties for free. I know how it feels. I used to main Charizard and I've had to switch to secondary characters against Avro's Tink. It's really frustrating, but there's not much that can be done. Fatties do need buffs, but it still wouldn't change the fact that fatties are at a significant disadvantage against Tink. Many characters have good and bad MUs, but the PMDT would need to change a lot about characters like Tink, Falcon, Fox, and anyone else with polarizing MUs to the point where they would be vastly different characters. It's a tough situation to have and there isn't much that can be done about it to ameliorate the overall MU spread. Therefore, yes free MUs are a problem, but it's not an end all problem in the game.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

He happens to hard counter a few characters, such as Bowser. Sort of a tier gatekeeper, if you will.

How to change him? Dunno, I don't understand the character well enough.

He has bad MU's but his good MU are like 90-10 and if your character cant approach really fast or is a big target, its just a super lame game of tag that you cant win. I honestly dont know how to change him to fix this, but maybe he honestly is not the problem.

I can tell you without asking him that he means the free MUs aren't a good thing, but probably aren't as much of a problem as a Bowser main would make them out to be. From a Bowser's perspective, Tink would be a dumb character because he wins against fatties for free. I know how it feels. I used to main Charizard and I've had to switch to secondary characters against Avro's Tink. It's really frustrating, but there's not much that can be done. Fatties do need buffs, but it still wouldn't change the fact that fatties are at a significant disadvantage against Tink. Many characters have good and bad MUs, but the PMDT would need to change a lot about characters like Tink, Falcon, Fox, and anyone else with polarizing MUs to the point where they would be vastly different characters. It's a tough situation to have and there isn't much that can be done about it to ameliorate the overall MU spread. Therefore, yes free MUs are a problem, but it's not an end all problem in the game.

I mean they can still be fat without being absolute combo fodder and sucking. A speed and DD and air buff would probably help alot. a 20 degree DI instead of the regulated 18 degree DI on fatties would be a start also. Or is this too much for the F tier brigade?

 

[mimgrim]

What's so horrible about Toon Link again?

Toon Link is polarizing in terms of his MU spread.

He beats a good majority of the cast, and a good bit of that majority pretty damn solidly, goes even with a few others and then loses horribly against certain character that are also pretty popular.

In his current stat he is pretty much best as a secondary/"dual main" character and best paired with someone how has less horrible MUs against his bad MUs.

 

[Droß]

Sounds like what half the cast will be in 10 years time, to be honest.

 

[Spralwers]

Hi, sorry but I don't remember playing you. What's your tag and main?

My tag is Billz, I invited you and your NC crew to smashfest at our hotel after PMS4. I'm a Marth main and play a good amount of Ganon too.

Also convenient that Toon Link got brought up. As a Marth main, I can frequently run into Marthritis issues vs DDD, Zard, Mewtwo, DK, Puff, Peach, Zelda, and Yoshi (maybe Pika too?). If Marthritis is the only thing holding me back from winning and I don't feel like overcoming that by being a better Marth, I can CP to TL for the free W. Secondary privilege at it's finest.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

So free match ups are not a problem?

Naw, _Chrome already explained this and we've gone into detail about it on this thread before. ****ty matchups happen when characters have strengths and weaknesses. It's inherent. I didn't say ****ty matchups weren't a problem, but it's not something we can really solve; they'll always exist.

Especially not in this case since Tink's not even broken. Would you really solve the problem by changing the entirety of Tink's game plan/play style just because he wins against characters who are slow and/or have no way of getting past rang/bombs? It's not like he's even that commonly played. And he has his fair share of checks and counters too. Personally, I think the problem here is that Bowser is trash and needs to be re-worked or left alone and accepted by the community for how he is. And he doesn't win a bunch of MUs 90-10 lol. A few, yeah, but he doesn't outright invalidate characters because of his play style.

Edit: Spralwers Tink is a really good secondary for Marth for that reason. I'd have to agree with you about most of the matchups you listed too, except I probably wouldn't switch against Pikachu and I'm super comfortable with the Zard matchup (I find it super fun!), so I'm not sure whether or not I'd switch for him, even though Tink does do better than Marth in that matchup. Puff could go either way too but it's a lot less stressful to just choose Tink over Marth on account of not only how the matchup is played, but PM's large array of large stages to counter pick as well.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

double post -_-

 

[JOE!]

It's not like he's even that commonly played.

This shouldn't be a factor though

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Naw, _Chrome already explained this and we've gone into detail about it on this thread before. ****ty matchups happen when characters have strengths and weaknesses. It's inherent. I didn't say ****ty matchups weren't a problem, but it's not something we can really solve; they'll always exist.

Especially not in this case since Tink's not even broken. Would you really solve the problem by changing the entirety of Tink's game plan/play style just because he wins against characters who are slow and/or have no way of getting past rang/bombs? It's not like he's even that commonly played. And he has his fair share of checks and counters too. Personally, I think the problem here is that Bowser is trash and needs to be re-worked or left alone and accepted by the community for how he is. And he doesn't win a bunch of MUs 90-10 lol. A few, yeah, but he doesn't outright invalidate characters because of his play style.

Edit: Spralwers Tink is a really good secondary for Marth for that reason. I'd have to agree with you about most of the matchups you listed too, except I probably wouldn't switch against Pikachu and I'm super comfortable with the Zard matchup (I find it super fun!), so I'm not sure whether or not I'd switch for him, even though Tink does do better than Marth in that matchup. Puff could go either way too but it's a lot less stressful to just choose Tink over Marth on account of not only how the matchup is played, but PM's large array of large stages to counter pick as well.

I am pretty sure i just said toon link was not the problem already, I agree that fatties need to be reworked to make them not so... combo fodder, i mean come on even DK gets punished harder than he can punish and hes like known for his punish game.

He has bad MU's but his good MU are like 90-10 and if your character cant approach really fast or is a big target, its just a super lame game of tag that you cant win. I honestly dont know how to change him to fix this, but maybe he honestly is not the problem.




I mean they can still be fat without being absolute combo fodder and sucking. A speed and DD and air buff would probably help alot. a 20 degree DI instead of the regulated 18 degree DI on fatties would be a start also. Or is this too much for the F tier brigade?

Oh look I did

 

[Avro-Arrow]

This shouldn't be a factor though

I think it makes a difference. The problem would be a lot more prevalent and relevant if it were a commonly seen matchup.

Edit: T tasteless gentleman 'Kay. I know you said he's not the problem, but you also called him "cancer" and asked me if I don't think near unwinnable matchups are a problem. I don't see why you're being so aggressive about this.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

He has bad MU's but his good MU are like 90-10 and if your character cant approach really fast or is a big target, its just a super lame game of tag that you cant win. I honestly dont know how to change him to fix this, but maybe he honestly is not the problem.




I mean they can still be fat without being absolute combo fodder and sucking. A speed and DD and air buff would probably help alot. a 20 degree DI instead of the regulated 18 degree DI on fatties would be a start also. Or is this too much for the F tier brigade?

I think it makes a difference. The problem would be a lot more prevalent and relevant if it were a commonly seen matchup.

That is a cop out answer and i dont like it. Have you seen diddy and Tink played? they are off the wall with their AGT approaches and projectile use and just because they are not "common" you think that this is okay for them to have crazy hard counters that invalidate particular characters? And im not saying that as a lash against Toon link or Diddy, I am saying that certain characters just cant deal with it. I watch bowser videos and where i dont see alot of diddy and toon links involved, whenever i see them they are usually bodying bowser no matter how good the bowser player is.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

That is a cop out answer and i dont like it. Have you seen diddy and Tink played? they are off the wall with their AGT approaches and projectile use and just because they are not "common" you think that this is okay for them to have crazy hard counters

Edited my last post if you want to take a peek. I didn't necessarily say it was okay for there to be crazy hard matchups, but you've got to accept that some problems are extremely difficult to solve and probably better to leave alone. I don't think it's a good idea to clog this thread arguing about something nobody wants to read so if you want to talk about it further I'd prefer direct messaging. Perhaps we just have a difference of perspective. No biggie. Theoretically it'd be great to have relatively balanced matchup spreads across the board with engaging and challenging interactions but in practice it's a million times easier said than done.

Also in that matchup I wouldn't even try approaching AGT or not because 1) You can get huge punishes for any read/whiffed attack and 2) I have no need to approach since I'm faster and can get percent by running away. It's not a fair matchup, and I'm not saying it's "cool man, just chill," but like I said it's not an easy problem to fix without messing something else up or destroying the character entirely.

Plus, you say Tink's not the problem, then go and complain about his "off the wall AGT approaches." So I think it's totally reasonable to discuss why I think changing Tink isn't an absolute, certain fix.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Edited my last post if you want to take a peek. I didn't necessarily say it was okay for there to be crazy hard matchups, but you've got to accept that some problems are extremely difficult to solve and probably better to leave alone. I don't think it's a good idea to clog this thread arguing about something nobody wants to read so if you want to talk about it further I'd prefer direct messaging. Perhaps we just have a difference of perspective. No biggie. Theoretically it'd be great to have relatively balanced matchup spreads across the board with engaging and challenging interactions but in practice it's a million times easier said than done.

Also in that matchup I wouldn't even try approaching AGT or not because 1) You can get huge punishes for any read/whiffed attack and 2) I have no need to approach since I'm faster and can get percent by running away. It's not a fair matchup, and I'm not saying it's "cool man, just chill," but like I said it's not an easy problem to fix without messing something else up or destroying the character entirely.

Plus, you say Tink's not the problem, then go and complain about his "off the wall AGT approaches." So I think it's totally reasonable to discuss why I think changing Tink isn't an absolute, certain fix.

I actually think a few posts ago, i mentioned a few ways to make bowser more favorable. I keep saying that Toon link is not the issue so i am not saying change/destroy/whatever to toon link.

AGAIN I AM SAYING NOTHING ABOUT CHANGING TOON LINK. But against a fat big character AGT retreat/approach/third hop/boostfall/ whatever AGT tech im forgetting is probably too good against certain characters. Am i saying toon link should be changed? NO HE IS IN A GOOD SPOT as far as actually being balanced BUT In certain match ups it is near unwinnable and that is NOT TOON LINKS fault. Its bowsers,ddd, peach, whatever character im really forgetting.

BUT what i am saying is that the heavies can be buffed in a certain way that would make them more reasonable to use and probably have more approach options/ better neutral game/ not comboed so hard.

I also dont see how these changes would disrupt the players who use these characters as they are nothing but buffs to the neutral game, they can still 100% retain their uniqueness

I'm not saying give bowser some weird float or AGT or a way to regain his second jump BUT some sort of recovery mix up would be reasonable to ask for OR some way to disrupt the opponent from pelting him with projectiles and easy edgeguards/tech reads/combos that end at 100%/chain grabs that end at 40+% and end with a spike or a smash attack.

Get what I am saying? Bowser is just really fat and has no real positives to it.

 

[mimgrim]

First off, way way way too much emphasis is being put on AGT right now. It is an amazing tool that allows for a ton of options and mix-ups but it is far from the primary reason that he beats certain characters by the margin he does. That is more so due to his already great mobility and speed combined with his projectiles, AGT only helps to compliment this but isn't the primary purpose. Getting rid of AGT I doubt would make the MUs he already wins solidly would make him win those MUs any less solidly (or be a very tiny decrease in solidity) while probably helping in making his bad MUs worse. Would also push his recovery from great to mediocre, maybe even to bad but I'm more hesitant to say that still. The loss of AGT would bring more harm then good in the grand scale of things and would probably just serve in making Tink even more polarizing.

That said I would love to see Tink be made less polarizing and more stable but that is something I imagine would be really difficult because of the type of character he is.

Can we start by replacing Fire Arrows with something else pl0x.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I actually think a few posts ago, i mentioned a few ways to make bowser more favorable. I keep saying that Toon link is not the issue so i am not saying change/destroy/whatever to toon link.

AGAIN I AM SAYING NOTHING ABOUT CHANGING TOON LINK. But against a fat big character AGT retreat/approach/third hop/boostfall/ whatever AGT tech im forgetting is probably too good against certain characters. Am i saying toon link should be changed? NO HE IS IN A GOOD SPOT as far as actually being balanced BUT In certain match ups it is near unwinnable and that is NOT TOON LINKS fault. Its bowsers,ddd, peach, whatever character im really forgetting.

BUT what i am saying is that the heavies can be buffed in a certain way that would make them more reasonable to use and probably have more approach options/ better neutral game/ not comboed so hard.

I also dont see how these changes would disrupt the players who use these characters as they are nothing but buffs to the neutral game, they can still 100% retain their uniqueness

I'm not saying give bowser some weird float or AGT or a way to regain his second jump BUT some sort of recovery mix up would be reasonable to ask for OR some way to disrupt the opponent from pelting him with projectiles and easy edgeguards/tech reads/combos that end at 100%/chain grabs that end at 40+% and end with a spike or a smash attack.

Get what I am saying? Bowser is just really fat and has no real positives to it.

Like I said, you can direct message me if you have a problem. Nobody wants to read you popping off on me.

Here's how this all looks from my perspective. I mention Tink has polarizing matchups. You sarcastically ask me whether or not I think polarizing matchups are a problem. I explain myself, again on the topic of Tink since that was what I was originally talking about and you seemed to inquiring about the same topic.

You then ask me if free matchups are not a problem. This is basically the same question as before. I go into more detail, again, still talking about Tink since that appeared to be the subject of the discussion. You call him cancer, then say he's not the problem, then say his AGT shenanigans are out of control. It's all very confusing. Especially since the post I was replying to wasn't the one where you suggested Bowser/fatty buffs. Whatever.

I'm not going to respond to this anymore. It's ridiculous. You come across as someone who's trying to call me out or something and make your real intentions unclear. Giving Bowser buffs would be great. I'm all for it. Everyone is. Stop bringing it up every single page. Geez. Everyone knows Bowser sucks.

Edit: mimgrim AGT in neutral doesn't really serve that much purpose, you're right. It first requires him having a bomb pulled, which takes set-up. Plus, there are other options he should be using in neutral besides relying on bombs. I think his recovery would be bottom five in the game for sure if it isn't already down there with the loss of AGT; he'd have to do bomb jumps which just seem like taking the auto industry and putting it back to East Germany's. It's really... cringeworthy.

Edit 2: Oh yeah, and fire arrows suck o.O. If Tink ever gets nerfs, he should get that move buffed or changed to better fill in weaknesses he would have.

 

[Tomaster]

I was bored so i made this:

I tried to put as little bias as i could in this, but there's sure to be some. I also tried to name the tiers in a way that shows the difference between them.
It's ordered within tiers.
So discuss, criticize, and whatever else you wanna do.

 

[Zoa]

@InfinityCollision

Thanks for the information. I'll keep that in mind. You mention movement as being one of his issues. I can understand air speed, but does it have anything to with DD or his short wavedash?

 

[_Chrome]

I was bored so i made this:

I tried to put as little bias as i could in this, but there's sure to be some. I also tried to name the tiers in a way that shows the difference between them.
It's ordered within tiers.
So discuss, criticize, and whatever else you wanna do.

Not a bad list overall, and thanks for bringing the conversation back to talking about tier lists. My suggestions (I'll try and not be biased, but let's face it, we all are) and say that these characters could be placed higher:
And that these characters could be placed lower:

Some other characters that could be moved around are , but I'm not all too sure about those ones.

Let's have a discussion about it. Also, are your characters ordered within tiers?

 

[_Chrome]

I also had not too too much to do so I made my tier list. I want to hear any kind of criticism because I don't want my ego to become too inflated. Without further ado, here it is:

http://smashboards.com/attachments/...7/?temp_hash=b7ad9d1fba35a06ff00149582c5ef49d

Characters are generally ordered within tiers, but I'm not an expert, so please help me out.

Sorry for the double post. I'm also sorry for sucking with technology.

 

[Tomaster]

Not a bad list overall, and thanks for bringing the conversation back to talking about tier lists. My suggestions (I'll try and not be biased, but let's face it, we all are) and say that these characters could be placed higher:
And that these characters could be placed lower:

Some other characters that could be moved around are , but I'm not all too sure about those ones.

Let's have a discussion about it. Also, are your characters ordered within tiers?

They're ordered yes, Left is better of course.
Also im not saying you're wrong about those, but I'm going to need reasoning for changing them.. I know DK, Pit, etc. are good. Everyone in the PM cast is good, i just couldn't bring myself to putting them higher than the others.. but I'm totally open to changes.

Snake and Sonic are probably examples of my bias showing haha, I'll have to reconsider those..

 

[PJB]

I'm pretty sure I've heard this idea thrown around for improving Kirby, but I'll bring it up again because I think it sounds really promising. What if Kirby's inhale/copy abilities were massively overhauled to encourage actually copying other characters abilities like in his actual games? The time it takes while the opponent is in kirby's (stomach? Lol) would be decreased significantly to remove kirbycides but allow enough time to essentially only either copy an ability or spit the opponent out. To compensate for this, Kirby would receive the opponents best special move rather than simply their neutral B. For example, swallowing Jigglypuff would give Kirby rest, Ike quick draw, game and watch upB, etc. Is this idea realistic? I know it could be difficult from a coding standpoint, but if it were feasible, would the community be interested in this type of redesign for Kirby?

 

[Twisty Treats]

They're ordered yes, Left is better of course.
Also im not saying you're wrong about those, but I'm going to need reasoning for changing them.. I know DK, Pit, etc. are good. Everyone in the PM cast is good, i just couldn't bring myself to putting them higher than the others.. but I'm totally open to changes.

Snake and Sonic are probably examples of my bias showing haha, I'll have to reconsider those..

Ike should be with captain falcon-He has amazing movement and punish's with side B, good recovery, and has a good matchup spread.
Peach and squirtle need to move up a lot

 

[Doctor Aids]

I'm pretty sure I've heard this idea thrown around for improving Kirby, but I'll bring it up again because I think it sounds really promising. What if Kirby's inhale/copy abilities were massively overhauled to encourage actually copying other characters abilities like in his actual games? The time it takes while the opponent is in kirby's (stomach? Lol) would be decreased significantly to remove kirbycides but allow enough time to essentially only either copy an ability or spit the opponent out. To compensate for this, Kirby would receive the opponents best special move rather than simply their neutral B. For example, swallowing Jigglypuff would give Kirby rest, Ike quick draw, game and watch upB, etc. Is this idea realistic? I know it could be difficult from a coding standpoint, but if it were feasible, would the community be interested in this type of redesign for Kirby?

I think it could be really interesting but I doubt it would happen, just because of how much of a ***** Kirby's inhale powers are to edit. It's why his specials don't get updated every patch if the opponent's neutral special gets a change. The amount of time and work it would take to implement would be ridiculous. If it could happen though it would be pretty cool.

 

[Soft Serve]

I also had not too too much to do so I made my tier list. I want to hear any kind of criticism because I don't want my ego to become too inflated. Without further ado, here it is:

http://smashboards.com/attachments/...7/?temp_hash=b7ad9d1fba35a06ff00149582c5ef49d

Characters are generally ordered within tiers, but I'm not an expert, so please help me out.

Sorry for the double post. I'm also sorry for sucking with technology.

What are your justifications for ike/gnw being in top 5?

 

[Deleted member]

Get what I am saying? Bowser is just really fat and has no real positives to it.

hes really strong tho

 

[_Chrome]

What are your justifications for ike/gnw being in top 5?

Honestly, Ike and G&W could be switched around with the characters in the upper range of the B tier. Ike and G&W both have solid combo and neutral games, with G&W have an incredible recovery as well. Both characters do have counterplay to them, but their offensive options are very dangerous. I believe Umbreon said earlier in the thread that G&W has a very deadly punish game like Falco yet he isn't punished nearly as hard if he makes a mistake.

Therefore G&W, while a glass cannon, is volatile like Falco, but until gameplay is optimized he'll be one of the big threats (or when he gets his upb nerfed and downb stall nerfed).

Ike on the other hand should probably be swapped out for one of the Melee top tiers in my current B Tier or with Mewtwo perhaps. However, I do believe he is in the Top Ten range for his great speed and powerful sword moves which work well in neutral and even better in the punish game.

 

[Life]

I'm only just beginning to understand how good Ike is: as a Pit player who's been messing with Ike in friendlies lately, I feel like I have to work dramatically less hard for almost-as-good results.

That said, in my limited experience, I think his spacie-killing game is somewhat overrated, at least in the "go to FD and chaingrab them to death Marth-style" sense. I suppose I have to figure out his platform coverage game against them before I can truly say that for sure, though.

I don't think he's better than Marth in a highly optimized environment, but as long as Marth mains choose to focus on optimizing him in Melee (which right now is a pretty wise choice) I don't think we'll see that play out in tournament results aside from the likes of Axe or other players who have a ton of Melee experience and already know how Marth works generally.