Tier List Speculation

[AuraMaudeGone]

"Bait and Punish, the character"

Like the posts above me said, other characters do the same thing, but they arguably reap better rewards out of it than Ness and have an easier time doing it.

Like, you know, Sheik.

 

[jtm94]

which is also olimar, bowser, ganon, zelda, link, toon link, any defensive character, arthur, morrigan, dr doom, gouken, hugo, hakan, squigly, peacock, sagat, zangief, dormammu, i cant name more defensive characters in fighting games im tired but you get the point

Not every character in the game can effectively play bait and punish as their "main" gameplan. It is much more MU-based than that.

Projectile characters can just toss stuff and catch the opponent mid neutral game. If you do it safe enough you will find your opponent hard-pressed to even punish your whiffs and it makes projectiles seem OP. Even beyond that, you can use your whiffed projectiles as controlled space to leverage better stage positioning to allow you to play the game with room to move around while you "cramp" your opponent.

I can't speak specifically on a lot of characters, but Zelda as a bait-and-punish character is incredibly shallow. If a Zelda player is seeing success purely going by bait and punish then they are facing stagnant competition. She needs to force her way in and then make the opponent so uncomfortable that they act and you catch that. This is deeper than "bait-and-punish." This isn't necessarily related, but I am opposed to the opinion that the gameplan of slow characters is easier/less complicated. In my opinion it is forced to be deeper in order to push micro spacing to the limit to deal with the faster cast members.

I think a lot of people could benefit from analyzing the game in a deeper way instead of stating simple "surface" interactions as the defining characteristics of a MU.

 

[Nausicaa]

You mean if they have a sword, it depends how long it is.
And if they're from space, what kind of animal they are.
That kind of depth, right?

 

[eideeiit]

Marth can be described as "Spacing and Pokes, the character".

Go too simple and we'll gain nothing. Marth is more like "safe ground pokes and commital high reward anti airs, the character".

IDK.

Now that I think about it a lot of the cast is "can't catch me, the character".

 

[frankxthexbunny]

The first time I ever played someone in Melee that could beat me, we did Link vs Falco on FD for 10 hours straight.
The main comment of the event, was how it seemed I always "rolled the right way"
That was when I was a newb of the newest order.
To this day, I make Rolling look OP. Rolling is even seen as decent by a lot of people in the last few years too.

You can make Link look/seem OP. If you can work with that, and always make your game lean that way, making things seem OP as much as you can, then keep going. You'll find the limits you're talking about.
Pretend he's OP. When he seems really strong, pay real close attention to what's going on. I'm sure you know what that vague statement means.
You'll find the nooks and crannies about his strengths and weaknesses pretty quickly that way. It has nothing to do with match-ups of characters or player styles, that's the surface of something deeper.
You described it already, this is just another way of saying the same thing.
Is that what you're looking to hear about it, or are you wanting to hear something more specific about something else Link-related?

I mean that's good advice and all, but really general advice that anyone can state for any character. I guess that's probably your point, but if we're going to assume specific character selection matters, which it must whether on the surface level of the things this characters can do or the don't even need floaties (lifesavers not jiggs) level of what the player can do with the character in relation to the player (ad infinitum I guess), then I would feel that your answer didn't actually address what I was looking for assuming I wanted you to say something that can be said about link (call it the platonic form of link since you don't have enough information to address the platonic form of me playing link).
I get that youre trying to help me. You did this. I don't think I want help though, just perspective in all its unhelpfulness the way a drawing of a hammer doesn't really help you build a house. What do you think of link in 3.6? Does he deserve the triforce of courage based upon what he knows how to do and what he seems obviously afraid of doing?

 

[Juushichi]

I was going to post a collection of dialogues from various places, and try to explain a certain thing about why I've seen the meta-game from a very different light. That idea compiled this (for now), so here is it.


Basically this




My reply




I'm just gonna rant in any direction and try highlighting a character so people know when I start talking about them.

I whipped together a quick Tier-List for 3.6b 2 days before 3.6 dropped.
It was rough, but gave me a good idea of what I was looking at differently, so I dissected it.

I'll start from the Melee-core characters since they're kind of a bench-mark to everyone in SOME way and seem to be brought up a lot in discussion when I list things. Whether as a basis for match-up understanding, or gate-keepers to being a good character in PM.

This is what my quickly thrown together 3.6b list looked like with everything removed except Melee-ish characters.









At a glance, someone may notice that I don't think very highly of the Melee-top-tier in PM. I never really have, and that includes the favorite Designated S-Tier Fox.

I've ranted about how each of them is 'good' before, but this can be looked at in multiple ways.
From Melee-to-PM, or PM-exclusively.

Using the batch of characters around Fox in that list (the 'high/mid' Tier of Melee) as an easy example to start...

My best guess is that people think characters like Pikachu, Mario, Samus, Luigi, Toon Link, etc, are a LOT worse in Melee than they really are. All of these characters are clearly 2 things.
BOTH things.

1) Weaker than the top-end Melee characters
-AND-
2) Can keep up with them in a lot of ways.

BOTH of these are very observable and easy to see with just a bit of contemplation/exploration. It seems like the latter was lost, and that they're considered ONLY as weak-melee-characters when they're coming into PM, as if they couldn't do much of anything before.

A simple thing that I'm sure everyone has noticed is how characters like Pikachu are considered basically bottom-tier or lower on tier-lists throughout every PM incarnation. Even today.

-Talking about Melee-to-PM and going into PM-exclusive a bit here...
We've seen Pika have great showings in recent years in Melee, whether it's top-placings at major tournaments, or beating top-players in what are considered nearly not-winnable match-ups.
So, if taking a look at what COULD make Pika a solid contender, what would it be?

He has solid moves that were lacking in his kit (B-Air), more damage across a lot of key moves (Jolt/U-Air), simple things like a Crawl, less lag on recovering along with a new diverse tool (QAC), the ability to RETREAT out of IASA frames (D-Tilt), RAR/wave-bounce/etc stuff that compliments him more than most (U-Air/new B-Air with RAR, Down/Neutral-B wave-bouncing, great ground-air-ground transition game)

What more does this character need to be ON PAR with the Melee top-end?
Let alone BETTER than the Melee top-tier?
Stubby arms?
Improve his key moves there then (Grab, F-Air, D-Air).
Throw him in a game where more universal stock-taking options are beneficial from gimps to vertical kills in a game with diversity?
All of this is done.
What now?
What can this character POSSIBLY need to be an equal with the top-end Melee characters?

I've yet to understand it, and simply don't see it, and I've been curious to know what people think has to be done to Pikachu to MAKE him one of the best characters in the game.
This has never gotten an answer.
Especially when near the end of 3.02, he was one of the few actually considered to likely go even with the Designated S-Tier Fox AND the Beast of 3.02 Mewtwo. Both of them in the same game, and still be bad in that game.

I don't understand how someone can think a character could be on the weak end of a game and STILL think THAT is possible, yet that's what has happened in every PM patch to-date. Ganon can't even do anything against Mewtwo, yet Pika did better than MOST in that match-up, and isn't better than almost anyone?

It's always been directed at me, in the sense I've been told to explain why characters like Pikachu are good, when it really seems like everyone else needs to explain why they're NOT that good. Getting an explanation as to why Pikachu is NOT one of the better characters, as an example of the MANY characters I've been asked to point out strengths in, is something that has never even come close to happening.
"He can be punished hard" I guess is the closest that has ever come next to something like "stubby arms"
As if Fox/Mewtwo/Ganonlol have an easy time catching him in the first place, and as if CF/Lucas/Marth getting punished hard makes them bottom-tier on every list alongside Pikachu too *they-never-are-though.

How about Samus? She's solid, isn't she? What's her problem? Too slow to be good?
Melee-to-PM, how about giving her a Roll, a Crawl, faster and bigger and better hit-boxes on key moves and making more of her moves useful in all areas of her game.
If she was in Melee with these buffs, would she be on-par with Melee-tops at last, or still weak?

Her Z-Air was new, and it was the best move in 3.02 that was never talked about nearly enough. It's still there in a lesser form.
What do these characters need to be contenders for top spots?

Samus got some attention in 3.02 it appears, and that stayed a bit into 3.5/3.6, so that's good.

TL is in the same boat. Got some attention and it stuck. Yet this seemed so obvious from day-1. As mentioned in the quote above-

-he's basically a really solid character that plays like a bag of counter-play options inside a cage of stock-taking conversions, and somehow you need to get whatever is in the bag while it's taped to the back of a wild boar.

YL was functioning mildly with NO GRAB, that alone would help him huge. In 2.1 he had a Galaxy-Grab (grabs you from space) and it lead to some of the most busted easy-mode stock-ending strings possible. That behind the 1 game-plan that YL somehow made work, buffed to core-game (Jiggs-B-Air centralized) levels, and he's pretty obviously strong. The discussion I guess leads to "is he better than the Melee-top-tier" and as far as I'm concerned, more characters in the game fear TL than any of THEM.

Some characters can't even get Samus off the ground.
Some characters can't even get to TL passed the mess.
THEY are the gate-keepers if PM ever had any.

Mario is on the TL/Samus end too. Got some attention, that faded a bit, but most of this was seemingly due to an ease-of-play with a certain style that involved almost everything that an end-game Mario wouldn't be doing. In Melee, my Mario/Fox could beat Mango's Mario/Fox, and his Mario/Fox could beat my Mario/Fox. This was in 2010, so a while ago, but In our matches, we both noted very directly at how we barely ever jumped. Ever. Mario simply can't get away with that kind of commitment when it comes to end-game level play.

Yet all I've really see in PM Mario-matches from 2.1 to today is things like full-jump Fireballs and attempts at D-Air, or some aerial into D-Smash or raw approach into clipping someone with something.

He can get away with this in the sense that he has a lot of hard-hitbox coverage, but as soon as Mario is seen as a character that uses that to cover his holes in neutral and choke people out with spacing and short-burst maneuvers, rather than force openings or holes in the opponents game, the sooner his meta-game will be seen like that of a modern-day Falco, rather than a 2007 Melee Falco trying to laser into direct combos because counter-offensive play isn't coming his way yet.

Once the basis of what I mention in the DAT Smash is starting to look like a puzzle coming together in the meta-game among top-players in the public eye, then the general public will start to get an idea of what Mario can ACTUALLY do in PM, and how good he really is.
http://smashboards.com/threads/stubby-arms-and-fireballs-the-comprehensive-mario-guide.346088/
That DAT thing should explain it, but basically Mario is a fortress of defensive-to-offensive transition options and can maneuver through anything. IF he stays grounded and keeps the fortress up.
There is no thing that Mario can't deal with, and it has NOTHING to do with being a diverse and flexible character. Mario can deal with anything simply because he can play a defensive ground game that is essentially impenetrable.
Stop getting hit. It's easy with any of these characters, and Mario does it through a foundation of dashes and shields and pokes that never get him in trouble. The cool stuff happens naturally, everybody knows that, so it has to come eventually where people stop going for it and just let Mario do his cool things when they come.
Falco-style, really. Falco going for D-Air > Jab > D-Smash on shields would be weird, and it's weird to me when Mario does it today. This is old and would have looked really odd if a D-Smash followed even at that point of the meta, it looks weird from PM Mario right now.
http://gfycat.com/VapidRaggedAruanas
Imagine a Mario that simply never gets hit, and is always around the opponent to threaten them. THAT is the Mario that will come, and THAT is the Mario that shuts down the rest of the PM roster.

this is another big story but short-form...
We've seen random players spamming Hail-Mary Up-B's and Down-B-Repeat strings both do very well, and everything between. Similar to Mario, in terms of the way an ACTUAL end-game style and game-plan has yet to surface on any world-class level but is slowly being gravitated TOWARD at every level of play, and is inevitable, the same is the case with Luigi.

Soon we may see the campy spacing Luigi do well, with F-Tilts and aerials and playing very safe, hardly doing any real approaches but being precise and picking moments (think 'Ka' style), or maybe the fly-by Luigi will surface, similar to the Up-B straight-approach but with U-Tilts and Smashes and Grabs all raw out of simple and direct play. Maybe the complexity will show up in some ball by someone. Either way, nobody seems to have any idea how good this character is at all.

All I'll bother with this one is, he's gotten some attention recently as a "Maybe he's not so bad" character. What is it that people missed if they think he's low-tier instead of bottom-tier? Why didn't they think he was mid-tier instead of low-tier before? Why do they think he's high-tier now instead of mid-tier?

What is everyone REALLY missing/looking for/seeing? Pay close attention and maybe we'll see.
For now, I don't see what everyone is missing, and I have NO IDEA AT ALL why people think he's better now than they thought he was in 2.1.
Not much has changed with HIM, did the game around him change that much to benefit him?
Or do people still think he's bad? If so, I still don't get it. What makes him bad? What WOULD make him on-par with the Melee-Top-Tier?

Again, it makes no sense, and if someone can explain why Luigi is suddenly a lot better in 3.5/etc, that would be great. Never has someone been able to explain why he's bad, or show why he's bad, and the only explanations that come up support him being quite good, and the only demonstrated stuff about Luigi in any matches or tournaments or anything basically screams that he's VERY strong. This has been the way it is since day-1 of 2.1, just like with the others, and I don't get it.

Is it possible that everyone who thinks he's a "little better" now, missed something else, and will think he's better at a later date? Very likely.
Screw his stock-taking or neutral-breaking and speed and range... The character can be very non-committal while remaining to be a threat. There is plenty of counter-play in the sense of nullifying a lot of Luigi's more 'direct' options, but this is no different than stopping Puff from hitting you with Raw B-Air's. She can still use B-Air as a center-piece, and adjust in a way that it's threatening without getting herself killed. Every counter-play to Luigi to-date has been minimal, and every counter-play TO that counter-play has been minimal on Luigi's end. The meta-game is a baby in this one STILL.







I'm not sure if this is helpful, or worth discussing, but that's something that I see when I look at the game, and always has been.

Everyone around here seems to be approaching the 'goodness-of-characters' topic from the opposite direction. I completely understand why, but I also understand very well that none of the people who are doing so completely understand why they do.

Hence the confusion.

I'll be confused in my little bubble. You'll all be confused with mine.
Smash is good like that.



Edit:
On-topic
The only thing that changed about Ganon from early Project M patches to recent Project M patches, is that he has a better chance of landing the connections he works for WHEN he has worked for them.

He could always corner people, he could always take up space, he could always play a mouse-trap game where he makes things seem safe when they're not, and could get hits that way.

Yet when he put all the work into doing so, he was STILL left with very little change of hitting the opponent without a simple resetting of the situation being at arms-reach for them.

What a momentum-based command grab, hover, and other tools provided him, is some of the essentials necessary to have that final play in the corner-and-connect game FUNCTIONAL.
Functional is something Ganon has never been before, because of THIS specifically.

PM is the first time that he's be functional is Smash.
That's a huge leap forward.

Bowser gained a bit of this from a different angle in 3.6, if this is seen clearly, it'll make a lot more sense for everyone regarding balancing big and slow characters.
There's a reason the extremes from Link to DK work the way they do and somehow STILL work. This is why.

I thought there wouldn't be another post that particularly prompts me to say anything in this thread, but thank you oh my god. I feel very similarly about a fair amount of characers that you've mentioned. Great job.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'll do my best and keep it short. Other more qualified people will probably chime or correct me.

For me as a Ness player, I might describe him as a grab punish-oriented character whose aerials and PK Fire threaten very particular zones in neutral. His primary goal is to maintain his defensive posture and try to utilize the double jump cancel mechanic to close in and punish the opponent for entering those zones. By baiting and punishing, he can capitalize on a PK Fire or DJC Fair and position himself in such a way to get that grab. At that point, his great downthrow grants followups on most of the cast.

He has ways to pressure shields, but nothing airtight like a spacie. The pressure is finite, and very dependent on his positioning on the opponent's shield. All of the pressure he can produce has solutions to circumvent it.

Kill moves include backair, made very fast by DJC, and backthrow. Upair is his best vertical finisher, nair can kill, downair is a meteor. Pretty sure that covers the most threatening finishers.

So the reason everyone is ******** is that, although the aforementioned stuff sounds good, all of it has counterplay that works very consistently, no matter what character you play. His kill moves are super DI 'able, and without a reliable vertical finisher, are dependent on stage positioning. Backair is very SDI susceptible, and the angle on backthrow allows you to live a lot longer than you might suspect. Upair really only kills floaties at reasonable percentages. Downair can be meteor cancelled.

Regarding neutral, his DJC mixups from the air can all be beat by crouch canceling, SDI, or simply patient shielding. PK Fire is a laggy projectile that can be snuffed out and neutralized by running shield, or SDI, or buffered roll away, so it's very hard to get a true conversion off of it a lot of the time, or even to throw it out safely. He has little range on most of his normals, average ground speed, average dash dance and wavedash, and short grab range.

Defensively, he has one of the most combo-susceptible weight/fall speed combinations in the game. His slow doublejump makes it difficult to jump out of juggles. He has slow tech rolls, horrible options out of shield, and one of the most exploitable recoveries in the game.

His combos on fastfallers are very potent, but progressively deteriorate as you move up the fall speed spectrum. Floaty characters can get out of most of his kill setups. Heavy floaties like ROB and Samus who have vertical combo resistance and horizontal kill resistance are an absolute nightmare for him.

He struggles with camping in all its iterations. Projectile, dash dance, zoning with disjoint, air.

Hope this gives you some idea. I've been listening to the Ness mains on this thread for a while too.

this may end up being a ****post but

ness has like three reasonable vertical kill moves, only two of which people consistently use, and one gimmicky edgeguard tool

my question is, is it possible to semi-reliably hit neutral b after a dair groundbounce on stage?
if it works, it seems like that would give ness a little more reliable way to kill vertically on stage

but idk if it work

 

[Akhenderson]

this may end up being a ****post but

ness has like three reasonable vertical kill moves, only two of which people consistently use, and one gimmicky edgeguard tool

my question is, is it possible to semi-reliably hit neutral b after a dair groundbounce on stage?
if it works, it seems like that would give ness a little more reliable way to kill vertically on stage

but idk if it work

neutral B is too slow and will not hit players that are too high. The uncharged one will not hit, and even if it did, it wouldn't kill. After a dair ground bounce, it's always a uair or bair depending on stage position.

 

[Player -0]

3 reasonable vertical kill moves? Up Air, maybe Up Smash, and then what?

Uncharged PK Flash doesn't kill for a while and it's superrr slow. Pretty dumb vs. some bad recoveries though ("charged" version).

Confused on how the 3.6b Fair change was/is a nerf though. Typically you'll be hitting the first couple hits of Fair and not the end few. More damage means more hitstun and well, damage. Hitlag (which dictates SDI) isn't affected afaik. @ The_NZA @ Boiko

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

yeah I was forgetting when the charged version of pk flash actually comes out my b

 

[Boiko]

this may end up being a ****post but

ness has like three reasonable vertical kill moves, only two of which people consistently use, and one gimmicky edgeguard tool

my question is, is it possible to semi-reliably hit neutral b after a dair groundbounce on stage?
if it works, it seems like that would give ness a little more reliable way to kill vertically on stage

but idk if it work

It wouldn't work very well, unfortunately. Typically due to how high dair launches you in conjunction with the long start up of neutral b and it's low vertical reach.

Ness has some of the worst center stage kill options in the game, actually. His uair and bair are both incredibly strong at very late percent due to the way their knockback scaling works. However, at the percentages that they can be more easily set up into, they often won't kill. You'll find things like bair killing very early when he catches you running away with a DJC bair and you didn't adjust for DI. All of a sudden you're dead at 80%.

Ness has a big blind spot in his kill percentages, depending on the character, let's take Peach for example.

0%-90%: Too early for Ness to kill, aside from on very small stages.

91%-115%: Basically the sweet spot. Ness will be able to kill with dair>uair/bair on most stages. He will often be able to follow up after the dair before the opponent escapes hit stun. However, there are certain situations where they can still escape, especially if they DI the dair.

116%-140%: Ness is really just focusing on getting damage here. He wants to get you to the next realm. Back throw will kill when he has his back to the ledge, or on small stages. He can try to connect with a DJC bair, but that can be tricky, although, it would more than likely kill depending on positioning, especially on the latter end of this tier. His other set up is out of dtilt, which can also be tricky. Also, he can ftilt by the ledge as a mix up, and that's really good.

141%+: This is still pretty tricky for Ness, but it opens up a new kill option in his up smash. What he's going to try to hit here is fair>up smash, anti-air up smash, or tech chase up smash. Depending on the ceiling of the stage, up smash will kill right around this percent with no DI. With good DI and an average ceiling, it's a little closer to 150%, but that's what the fair is for. Also, back throw will almost always kill as well unless you're on DL. Alternatively, he can tech chase with a DJC nair to try and scoop a kill. As always, fishing with DJC bairs is another option.

Now, this doesn't include things like edge guarding, or situational kill set ups like fair/dtilt>fsmash, PK Flash, or PKT2. This is Ness' on stage bread and butter. And the percentages are really just guesswork. I'd have to rewatch a couple of my sets with Malachi to get actual numbers.

What makes Ness super interesting, and in my opinion, one of the most fun characters to play, is that his kit is actually very versatile. He can be aggressive, he can be a bit more campy, he can try to poke, he can bait and punish, etc. The problem is that he doesn't particularly excel in any one area. He can do a little bit of everything but he doesn't do anything particularly well. All of his options lose to the same counter options. Whether he's being aggressive, campy, or trying to bait you, he'll still have no answer for run up shield or crouch cancel. Plus, his incredibly strong punish game is mitigated by good SDI and tech mix ups. Following that, his punishes often have weak kill conversions unless you're able to set up the dair>uair/bair. And even then, you need to be very wary of your opponents percent and anticipate their DI for two reasons:

1.) Are they going to die? If not, it may be worth it to smack them down with another dair and attempt to continue your combo with another pillar. Instead you may bair/uair them and put them in that "dead zone" where now you can't convert to a kill anymore. It's very dependent on stage, stage positioning, and character (as are most things).

2.) Are they going to DI for uair or bair? Sometimes both are DI'd the same way, sometimes they're not. In my set against Esam, it came down to a guess for both of us and I went with the more unexpected option of bair (had to hit all the way across the stage) and ended up guessing correctly. It's a guessing game for both people, but if Ness' makes the wrong choice, he needs to work for another kill set up.

When getting hit with PK Fire you have a few options, and it's important to understand the habits of the person that you're playing against. Nine times out of ten, a Ness player will attempt to grab out of PK Fire. It's a pretty good choice. They will also read your roll away (because who is going to roll toward Ness) with another PK Fire or a dash grab. Better Ness players will opt for different options, like DJC dair, fair, some type of combo starter, or you can be like me and dash dance or crouch around the pillar, waiting to see how they respond.

I'll break down a few scenarios and how you can respond:

The first rule about PK Fire is don't get hit by PK Fire. Obviously, easier said than done. I can't speak for other Ness players besides Stereo, who is amazing at landing it, but I'll typically wait for you to commit to something like an aerial and punish your landing. Alternatively, I'll try to use the aerial mobility provided by DJC to hit an exposed part of your body when shielding (this is very easy on Marth, for example, as his foot sticks out of his shield). If Ness is in the air 45 degrees above you either get under him, or shield.

So let's say you do get hit, this opens a new tree of decision making:

No mater what, the most favorable action is to get out of PK Fire with as little commitment as possible. SDIing out and putting out something like a jab, tilt, or fast projectile to keep Ness away is best, but probably the most tricky. Here are a few other options:

Buffer a roll away. This works best if Ness is far away, as rolling will make him have to run farther to get a follow up. You may sacrifice a bit of positioning here, but it's better than him getting a follow up.

Buffer a roll toward Ness. This is the mix up that not a lot of players expect. Obviously, it can be bad if he reads or reacts to it. I've gotten away with it a lot in the ditto, way more often than I've been punished for it. Ness doesn't have a lot of time to react, so he's often going to commit to a read to try to punish you. Mixing it up is always a good option.

SDI up. This boils down to knowing the habits of the player (and what character you're playing). Let's take Samus for a example, a super floaty. Samus can get hit by the bolt, SDI up, and jump out of the pillar before Ness' IASA even happens. In fact, most regular floaties can as well. Another benefit of this is that Ness is short and has a tiny grab range. If you SDI up, he won't be able to grab you, leaving you to either escape or attempt to punish his whiff. This is why I mentioned using dair earlier. It sends the opponent back down into the pillar in a position for Ness to grab them. Short hop fair>fast fall>regrab also works in this situation. Like I said, if your Ness player is a creature of habit and always fishes for grabs, you won't have a problem.

There are a few other options like spot dodging, getting a shield up and waiting to roll, rolling twice, etc. But I think that the three I mentioned are a good starting point.

Drinking Food really hit the nail on the head in regards to the neutral game. Getting under Ness and shielding when he goes into the air is pretty much always a good approach. Just watch out for the tomahawk and auto cancels. I believe that every aerial he has auto cancels out of short hop, so he may short hop>fair>grab. It's essentially the same as an empty landing.

Anyway, hope this helps. I can post videos, gfys, or whatever you want of any of these situations unfolding mid match, or I can record different ways to handle the situation. Just let me know.

@ Player -0 You're correct that hitlag is not affected assuming that PM uses the same formula as melee of (damage/3+3) *1.5 (electric) rounded down. That would mean 6 frames of hitlag with an SDI Modifier of .8x. I think that the fair change was a very small buff, personally. Not sure who would think otherwise. I don't know if there would be any changes to hit stun because the knock back was compensated for the damage change. I would need to check when I get home.

 

[Player -0]

I remember someone (you or NZA) mentioning it. Thought it was NZA but wanted to pop both mention thingy mabobs.

Also forgot about hitstun being related to KB, not specifically damage.

A quick DJC Nair OoS can be used to pop people low because they usually either aren't DI'ing or if they know Ness DI'ing for Dair.

 

[The_NZA]

I remember someone (you or NZA) mentioning it. Thought it was NZA but wanted to pop both mention thingy mabobs.

Also forgot about hitstun being related to KB, not specifically damage.

A quick DJC Nair OoS can be used to pop people low because they usually either aren't DI'ing or if they know Ness DI'ing for Dair.

Hitstun I believe is both affected by damage AND knockback (see how Ness's magnet in 3.6 has significantly more hitstun than his 3.5 magnet). I could be wrong but in my experience, people tend to SDI fair worse in this patch than in 3.5. My explanation for this is simple: Fair went from 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 damage to 4, 4, 3, 2, 2 damage. This means the first two hits of fair are easier to SDI while the last two hits are harder to SDI. My presumption is, most of the time people are SDIing fair, the yare doing it during the 3rd or 4th and 5th hit, rather than the first two, hence why the fair change somewhat nerfed the SDI game. Technically, it would be easier to SDI the first two hits.

But Boiko can correct me if i'm wrong. He' s a way bigger ****ing nerd than me.

 

[Boiko]

Hitstun I believe is both affected by damage AND knockback (see how Ness's magnet in 3.6 has significantly more hitstun than his 3.5 magnet). I could be wrong but in my experience, people tend to SDI fair worse in this patch than in 3.5. My explanation for this is simple: Fair went from 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 damage to 4, 4, 3, 2, 2 damage. This means the first two hits of fair are easier to SDI while the last two hits are harder to SDI. My presumption is, most of the time people are SDIing fair, the yare doing it during the 3rd or 4th and 5th hit, rather than the first two, hence why the fair change somewhat nerfed the SDI game. Technically, it would be easier to SDI the first two hits.

But Boiko can correct me if i'm wrong. He' s a way bigger ****ing nerd than me.

LOL, huge ****ing nerd checking in.

Relative to the last past the first two hits have the same amount of hitlag for SDI, six frames:

Pre-Patch

Spoiler

(3/3 + 3) = 4 * 1.5 = 6.

Post-Patch

Spoiler

(4/3 + 3) = 4.33 (rounded down) 4 * 1.5 = 6

The last hits, doing 2%, would be four frames of hitlag, making them harder to SDI.

Spoiler

(2/3 + 3) = 3.66 (rounded down) 3 * 1.5 = 4.5 (rounded down) 4

I'm almost certain that's how that works.

Edit: The 1.5 multiplier is because it's electric.
Double Edit: I'm pretty sure it's a little bit more complicated than this, and if some even bigger nerd wants to let me know, that would be great.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I was going to post a collection of dialogues from various places, and try to explain a certain thing about why I've seen the meta-game from a very different light. That idea compiled this (for now), so here is it.


Basically this




My reply




I'm just gonna rant in any direction and try highlighting a character so people know when I start talking about them.

I whipped together a quick Tier-List for 3.6b 2 days before 3.6 dropped.
It was rough, but gave me a good idea of what I was looking at differently, so I dissected it.

I'll start from the Melee-core characters since they're kind of a bench-mark to everyone in SOME way and seem to be brought up a lot in discussion when I list things. Whether as a basis for match-up understanding, or gate-keepers to being a good character in PM.

This is what my quickly thrown together 3.6b list looked like with everything removed except Melee-ish characters.









At a glance, someone may notice that I don't think very highly of the Melee-top-tier in PM. I never really have, and that includes the favorite Designated S-Tier Fox.

I've ranted about how each of them is 'good' before, but this can be looked at in multiple ways.
From Melee-to-PM, or PM-exclusively.

Using the batch of characters around Fox in that list (the 'high/mid' Tier of Melee) as an easy example to start...

My best guess is that people think characters like Pikachu, Mario, Samus, Luigi, Toon Link, etc, are a LOT worse in Melee than they really are. All of these characters are clearly 2 things.
BOTH things.

1) Weaker than the top-end Melee characters
-AND-
2) Can keep up with them in a lot of ways.

BOTH of these are very observable and easy to see with just a bit of contemplation/exploration. It seems like the latter was lost, and that they're considered ONLY as weak-melee-characters when they're coming into PM, as if they couldn't do much of anything before.

A simple thing that I'm sure everyone has noticed is how characters like Pikachu are considered basically bottom-tier or lower on tier-lists throughout every PM incarnation. Even today.

-Talking about Melee-to-PM and going into PM-exclusive a bit here...
We've seen Pika have great showings in recent years in Melee, whether it's top-placings at major tournaments, or beating top-players in what are considered nearly not-winnable match-ups.
So, if taking a look at what COULD make Pika a solid contender, what would it be?

He has solid moves that were lacking in his kit (B-Air), more damage across a lot of key moves (Jolt/U-Air), simple things like a Crawl, less lag on recovering along with a new diverse tool (QAC), the ability to RETREAT out of IASA frames (D-Tilt), RAR/wave-bounce/etc stuff that compliments him more than most (U-Air/new B-Air with RAR, Down/Neutral-B wave-bouncing, great ground-air-ground transition game)

What more does this character need to be ON PAR with the Melee top-end?
Let alone BETTER than the Melee top-tier?
Stubby arms?
Improve his key moves there then (Grab, F-Air, D-Air).
Throw him in a game where more universal stock-taking options are beneficial from gimps to vertical kills in a game with diversity?
All of this is done.
What now?
What can this character POSSIBLY need to be an equal with the top-end Melee characters?

I've yet to understand it, and simply don't see it, and I've been curious to know what people think has to be done to Pikachu to MAKE him one of the best characters in the game.
This has never gotten an answer.
Especially when near the end of 3.02, he was one of the few actually considered to likely go even with the Designated S-Tier Fox AND the Beast of 3.02 Mewtwo. Both of them in the same game, and still be bad in that game.

I don't understand how someone can think a character could be on the weak end of a game and STILL think THAT is possible, yet that's what has happened in every PM patch to-date. Ganon can't even do anything against Mewtwo, yet Pika did better than MOST in that match-up, and isn't better than almost anyone?

It's always been directed at me, in the sense I've been told to explain why characters like Pikachu are good, when it really seems like everyone else needs to explain why they're NOT that good. Getting an explanation as to why Pikachu is NOT one of the better characters, as an example of the MANY characters I've been asked to point out strengths in, is something that has never even come close to happening.
"He can be punished hard" I guess is the closest that has ever come next to something like "stubby arms"
As if Fox/Mewtwo/Ganonlol have an easy time catching him in the first place, and as if CF/Lucas/Marth getting punished hard makes them bottom-tier on every list alongside Pikachu too *they-never-are-though.

How about Samus? She's solid, isn't she? What's her problem? Too slow to be good?
Melee-to-PM, how about giving her a Roll, a Crawl, faster and bigger and better hit-boxes on key moves and making more of her moves useful in all areas of her game.
If she was in Melee with these buffs, would she be on-par with Melee-tops at last, or still weak?

Her Z-Air was new, and it was the best move in 3.02 that was never talked about nearly enough. It's still there in a lesser form.
What do these characters need to be contenders for top spots?

Samus got some attention in 3.02 it appears, and that stayed a bit into 3.5/3.6, so that's good.

TL is in the same boat. Got some attention and it stuck. Yet this seemed so obvious from day-1. As mentioned in the quote above-

-he's basically a really solid character that plays like a bag of counter-play options inside a cage of stock-taking conversions, and somehow you need to get whatever is in the bag while it's taped to the back of a wild boar.

YL was functioning mildly with NO GRAB, that alone would help him huge. In 2.1 he had a Galaxy-Grab (grabs you from space) and it lead to some of the most busted easy-mode stock-ending strings possible. That behind the 1 game-plan that YL somehow made work, buffed to core-game (Jiggs-B-Air centralized) levels, and he's pretty obviously strong. The discussion I guess leads to "is he better than the Melee-top-tier" and as far as I'm concerned, more characters in the game fear TL than any of THEM.

Some characters can't even get Samus off the ground.
Some characters can't even get to TL passed the mess.
THEY are the gate-keepers if PM ever had any.

Mario is on the TL/Samus end too. Got some attention, that faded a bit, but most of this was seemingly due to an ease-of-play with a certain style that involved almost everything that an end-game Mario wouldn't be doing. In Melee, my Mario/Fox could beat Mango's Mario/Fox, and his Mario/Fox could beat my Mario/Fox. This was in 2010, so a while ago, but In our matches, we both noted very directly at how we barely ever jumped. Ever. Mario simply can't get away with that kind of commitment when it comes to end-game level play.

Yet all I've really see in PM Mario-matches from 2.1 to today is things like full-jump Fireballs and attempts at D-Air, or some aerial into D-Smash or raw approach into clipping someone with something.

He can get away with this in the sense that he has a lot of hard-hitbox coverage, but as soon as Mario is seen as a character that uses that to cover his holes in neutral and choke people out with spacing and short-burst maneuvers, rather than force openings or holes in the opponents game, the sooner his meta-game will be seen like that of a modern-day Falco, rather than a 2007 Melee Falco trying to laser into direct combos because counter-offensive play isn't coming his way yet.

Once the basis of what I mention in the DAT Smash is starting to look like a puzzle coming together in the meta-game among top-players in the public eye, then the general public will start to get an idea of what Mario can ACTUALLY do in PM, and how good he really is.
http://smashboards.com/threads/stubby-arms-and-fireballs-the-comprehensive-mario-guide.346088/
That DAT thing should explain it, but basically Mario is a fortress of defensive-to-offensive transition options and can maneuver through anything. IF he stays grounded and keeps the fortress up.
There is no thing that Mario can't deal with, and it has NOTHING to do with being a diverse and flexible character. Mario can deal with anything simply because he can play a defensive ground game that is essentially impenetrable.
Stop getting hit. It's easy with any of these characters, and Mario does it through a foundation of dashes and shields and pokes that never get him in trouble. The cool stuff happens naturally, everybody knows that, so it has to come eventually where people stop going for it and just let Mario do his cool things when they come.
Falco-style, really. Falco going for D-Air > Jab > D-Smash on shields would be weird, and it's weird to me when Mario does it today. This is old and would have looked really odd if a D-Smash followed even at that point of the meta, it looks weird from PM Mario right now.
http://gfycat.com/VapidRaggedAruanas
Imagine a Mario that simply never gets hit, and is always around the opponent to threaten them. THAT is the Mario that will come, and THAT is the Mario that shuts down the rest of the PM roster.

this is another big story but short-form...
We've seen random players spamming Hail-Mary Up-B's and Down-B-Repeat strings both do very well, and everything between. Similar to Mario, in terms of the way an ACTUAL end-game style and game-plan has yet to surface on any world-class level but is slowly being gravitated TOWARD at every level of play, and is inevitable, the same is the case with Luigi.

Soon we may see the campy spacing Luigi do well, with F-Tilts and aerials and playing very safe, hardly doing any real approaches but being precise and picking moments (think 'Ka' style), or maybe the fly-by Luigi will surface, similar to the Up-B straight-approach but with U-Tilts and Smashes and Grabs all raw out of simple and direct play. Maybe the complexity will show up in some ball by someone. Either way, nobody seems to have any idea how good this character is at all.

All I'll bother with this one is, he's gotten some attention recently as a "Maybe he's not so bad" character. What is it that people missed if they think he's low-tier instead of bottom-tier? Why didn't they think he was mid-tier instead of low-tier before? Why do they think he's high-tier now instead of mid-tier?

What is everyone REALLY missing/looking for/seeing? Pay close attention and maybe we'll see.
For now, I don't see what everyone is missing, and I have NO IDEA AT ALL why people think he's better now than they thought he was in 2.1.
Not much has changed with HIM, did the game around him change that much to benefit him?
Or do people still think he's bad? If so, I still don't get it. What makes him bad? What WOULD make him on-par with the Melee-Top-Tier?

Again, it makes no sense, and if someone can explain why Luigi is suddenly a lot better in 3.5/etc, that would be great. Never has someone been able to explain why he's bad, or show why he's bad, and the only explanations that come up support him being quite good, and the only demonstrated stuff about Luigi in any matches or tournaments or anything basically screams that he's VERY strong. This has been the way it is since day-1 of 2.1, just like with the others, and I don't get it.

Is it possible that everyone who thinks he's a "little better" now, missed something else, and will think he's better at a later date? Very likely.
Screw his stock-taking or neutral-breaking and speed and range... The character can be very non-committal while remaining to be a threat. There is plenty of counter-play in the sense of nullifying a lot of Luigi's more 'direct' options, but this is no different than stopping Puff from hitting you with Raw B-Air's. She can still use B-Air as a center-piece, and adjust in a way that it's threatening without getting herself killed. Every counter-play to Luigi to-date has been minimal, and every counter-play TO that counter-play has been minimal on Luigi's end. The meta-game is a baby in this one STILL.







I'm not sure if this is helpful, or worth discussing, but that's something that I see when I look at the game, and always has been.

Everyone around here seems to be approaching the 'goodness-of-characters' topic from the opposite direction. I completely understand why, but I also understand very well that none of the people who are doing so completely understand why they do.

Hence the confusion.

I'll be confused in my little bubble. You'll all be confused with mine.
Smash is good like that.



Edit:
On-topic
The only thing that changed about Ganon from early Project M patches to recent Project M patches, is that he has a better chance of landing the connections he works for WHEN he has worked for them.

He could always corner people, he could always take up space, he could always play a mouse-trap game where he makes things seem safe when they're not, and could get hits that way.

Yet when he put all the work into doing so, he was STILL left with very little change of hitting the opponent without a simple resetting of the situation being at arms-reach for them.

What a momentum-based command grab, hover, and other tools provided him, is some of the essentials necessary to have that final play in the corner-and-connect game FUNCTIONAL.
Functional is something Ganon has never been before, because of THIS specifically.

PM is the first time that he's be functional is Smash.
That's a huge leap forward.

Bowser gained a bit of this from a different angle in 3.6, if this is seen clearly, it'll make a lot more sense for everyone regarding balancing big and slow characters.
There's a reason the extremes from Link to DK work the way they do and somehow STILL work. This is why.

A problem that I am having with your post (which could mean others as well) is that you are bringing up valid points and arguments, but addressing so many at the same time that the only way to avoid a 14 page report post is to be very general in discussing some topics you bring up. In this one in particular, each one is a valid question, but will probably get lost in the clutter of this thread even though it is very good for discussion, which would be a shame since a lot of thought went into creating this post.

Right now I am speaking on specifically pikachu, and like you I found it silly that pikachu could do well vs fox and mewtwo, (two characters at the dominate spectrum of the tier list at the time) and still be considered bad. While you brought up many of the positive attributes of the character, what wasn't brought into full detail were the issues that pikachu faced that hurt the characters placement in that patch.

In terms of worst relevant matchup, losing to Mario was really detrimental in 3.02 due to just how easy the character was to use, combined with how common it was to run into said character. (We both agree it is a bad m.u for pikachu so no point in addressing the specifics of that matchup at this time.)
Losing to Falco, and not having a winning matchup vs pit makes it difficult to solo main pikachu, and arguably enough reason to not be in top tier discussion when you consider going even at best vs diddy and lucas as well.

As for what keeps pikachu out of high/mid, the answer to that is something that shouldn't have merit on a tier list but always does. That yellow ball of hate is hard as **** to play with at a consistent lvl, and any tiny form of human error is enough to open you up to a huge punish on a far larger scale than other characters. (Our crimson viper)

And finally I would like to address the arguably lowest tier character pikachu lost to, dk. Dk while having exploitable cons across the board, does have good defining attributes as well, that allows for all of the positive aspects of the pikachu vs marth m.u, except at a safer ending range and more shield hitstun on contact. While it would be easy to state lack of m.u knowledge, the results were pretty consistent through the entirety of the game. Dk's invincible nair arms that importantly covered his entire body, Bair wall, on par movement speed, and extremely strong punish game were good enough to provide safe on shield pressure, and enough speed and disjoint to negate pika's great burst movement. Since dk was not that common in 3.02, the m.u itself should not have held as much ground on pikachu's placement, but for some reason not having a winning m.u against dk automatically makes you low tier or worst despite the rest of the m.u spread over 41 characters to many people.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Damage affects knockback not hitstun by itself. Any given amount of knockback always has the same hitstun, the ONLY exception is for ground bounces (meteors and spikes) and wall/ceiling bounces.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Damage affects knockback not hitstun by itself. Any given amount of knockback always has the same hitstun, the ONLY exception is for ground bounces (meteors and spikes).

In addition, you also have to account for the target's percentage, something else they forgot. (unless their calculating on 0%)

 

[Shadic]

Opponent percentage impacts KB, not hitstun directly.

 

[Boiko]

Right, but knockback is a component of the hitstun formula, right? So opponent percent and damage done does not directly affect hitstun, but it does affect it in a sort of indirect way (by affecting a piece of the formula), correct?

My clarification was for hitlag though, and making sure that is correct. @ DrinkingFood @ Shadic

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Right, but knockback is a component of the hitstun formula, right? So opponent percent and damage done does not directly affect hitstun, but it does affect it in a sort of indirect way (by affecting a piece of the formula), correct?

My clarification was for hitlag though, and making sure that is correct. @ DrinkingFood @ Shadic

do you mean knockback as in the knockback that's output through the knockback formula? or knockback as in base knockback

but yeah I think it's based on the final knockback value, not base knockback

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The raw knockback value you get from the knockback formula (the one where you put base knockback, knockback growth, percent, damage, weight) is multiplied by a number. According to ssbwiki it is .4. So if raw knockback is 100, you receive 40 frames of hitstun. I believe this is rounded down.

 

[Life]

The raw knockback value you get from the knockback formula (the one where you put base knockback, knockback growth, percent, damage, weight) is multiplied by a number. According to ssbwiki it is .4. So if raw knockback is 100, you receive 40 frames of hitstun. I believe this is rounded down.

So if you happened to know the exact formula, you could figure out the BKB and KBG of any given move just by collecting a bunch of hitstun data at different percents? (And then I guess figuring out the angle somehow. Maybe by hitting them against the wall of the training stage and doing some trig after accounting for their fall acceleration? Would be imprecise but...)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Or you could go into BrawlBox and get the bkb/kbg/damage/weight/etc...

 

[Deleted member]

Or you could go into BrawlBox and get the bkb/kbg/damage/weight/etc...

Project Smash Attacks*

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/threads/resource-project-smash-attacks-guide.7975/

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What are the advantages of PSA? Brawlbox seems fine to me (except some animation viewing stuff)

 

[DMG]

Brawlbox has spawned numerous horror stories, the likes of which could rival any top Stephen King book. Please no

 

[Deleted member]

What are the advantages of PSA? Brawlbox seems fine to me (except some animation viewing stuff)

I'm pretty sure brawlbox can't even be used to open that type information on subactions. Looking up stats on a move such as bkb, kbg, damage, angle, wdsk, and hitbox ID are all strictly in PSA unless I don't know something about bbox?

 

[Life]

Since we're talking PSA: as far as I know, Pit's upB does not reflect projectiles, a functionality which was supposedly added in 3.6 beta according to the patch notes, so I went ahead and downloaded PSA. I looked at a few different moves (upB, downB, and Fox's downB) looking for something that looked like a "reflects projectiles on these frames" thing and I couldn't find any. What is it that I'm looking for, and where is it?

And @ PMDT members: is Pit's upB actually supposed to reflect projectiles like the patch notes say? Or was that not supposed to find its way into the light of day and just got slipped in the patch notes somehow?

 

[Draco_The]

I'm pretty sure brawlbox can't even be used to open that type information on subactions. Looking up stats on a move such as bkb, kbg, damage, angle, wdsk, and hitbox ID are all strictly in PSA unless I don't know something about bbox?

You can use BB 0.67/0.68 to edit movesets. You can just open a FitChar.pac file with either of them and edit what you want inside the MoveDef (bone references, sub actions, actions, etc) or open a character model, preview it and load the animation and moveset files and edit them.

AFAIK if you edit a moveset file with BB then you can't open it with PSA anymore, and BB sometimes corrupts a file when saving, which is why PSA support was dropped in next versions of BB.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm pretty sure brawlbox can't even be used to open that type information on subactions. Looking up stats on a move such as bkb, kbg, damage, angle, wdsk, and hitbox ID are all strictly in PSA unless I don't know something about bbox?

I can check what version I have tonight, but BrawlBox can check bkb, kbg, angle, hit frames, etc. Its worked fine for me (except the few mishaps with Yoshi...).

 

[Boiko]

Since we're talking PSA: as far as I know, Pit's upB does not reflect projectiles, a functionality which was supposedly added in 3.6 beta according to the patch notes, so I went ahead and downloaded PSA. I looked at a few different moves (upB, downB, and Fox's downB) looking for something that looked like a "reflects projectiles on these frames" thing and I couldn't find any. What is it that I'm looking for, and where is it?

And @ PMDT members: is Pit's upB actually supposed to reflect projectiles like the patch notes say? Or was that not supposed to find its way into the light of day and just got slipped in the patch notes somehow?

I'm not exactly sure how it works with each character, as I feel a lot of them are different. Taking Pit for example: under action 11F, he generates a defensive collision bubble with the parameters 0-3, 0-0, 0-3. I BELIEVE these are what control the effects of his down b reflect. If you were to change them to 0-2, 0-0, 0-2 for example, it should still reflect projectiles but not transfer possession.

I don't see anything like this under his up+b, which I would imagine would work in a similar way. I tested it and found that I couldn't get any projectiles to reflect, so you may be right.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

HELLO EVERYONE I'M DRUNK AGAIN

I'M NOW GOING TO ASK WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU

BECAUSE FRANKLY BALANCING THIS GAME, AFTER ALL THESE VERSIONS AND ITERATIONS

AFTER ALL THE HARD STUFF ABOUT FINALIZING PLAYSTYLES AND MOVESETS IS DONE

[EXCEPT FOR NESS, I STILL STRONGLY BELIEVE WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF HIM DID NOT IN FACT HAVE A STRAIGHT-OUT DIRECTIONAL GAMEPLAN FOR NESS IN MIND]

[SEE ALSO: YOSHI, DK TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, EVEN GANON IN SOME SENSE, THESE CHARACTERS HAVE STRENGTHS THEY CAN PLAY TO BUT NO CLEAR WAY TO GO FROM A TO DEAD STOCK]

WE SIMPLY ARE LEFT WITH THE JOB OF TONING DOWN THOSE TOO GOOD AT THEIR JOBS

AND HELPING OUT THOSE BAD AT THEIR JOBS.

BUT FOR SOME REASON, WHERE NOT DOING THIS.

AND FRANKLY?

UNTIL WE GET TO THE BOTTOM ROOT OF THE REASON OF *WHY* WE'RE NOT DOING THIS

ANY DISCUSSION HERE IS PRETTY MUCH POINTLESS.

MY ADVICE IS TO JUST ****ING WISE UP AND LEAVE THE GAME EN MASSE UNTIL THE DT REALIZE THAT THE MELEE CROWD THEY'RE TRYING TO CATER TO DOESN'T GIVE A ****, SO THEY SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK INTO MAKING THIS AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DO IN FACT CARE ABOUT THIS GAME AND ITS FUTURE.

OOOOHHH I JUST PISSED PEOPLE OFF WITH THAT DIDN'T I

YEAH SHUT UP WITH THE 'GAME IS GOOD' BS NAUSICAA, NO, THE GAME IS CLEARLY BEING HELD BACK BY SOMEONE OR SOMEONES WHO DON'T HAVE THEIR PRIORITIES IN ORDER.

FRANKLY ... WHY IS LINK AS BAD AS HE IS JUST BECAUSE HIS GAMEPLAN REVOLVES AROUND PROJECTILES, WHEN FALCO *EXISTS*?

WHY EXACTLY IS ZELDA'S DIN'S A BORDERLINE IGNORABLE TOOL FOR FAST CHARACTERS? WHAT DOES A MOVE THAT FORCES CHARACTERS TO PUT OUT AN AERIAL MATTER, WHEN THE CHARACTER THAT MOVE IS ATTACHED TO CAN'T WHIFF PUNISH FOR ****?

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHY DOES SNAKE'S MINE GET TO EXPLODE AND HARM THE CHARACTER THAT BLEW IT UP, WHEN ZELDA'S DIN'S DOESN'T? IS THE IDEA OF AN AERIAL SNAKE MINE SO ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT THE CHARACTER SUCH A MOVE WOULD BE ATTACHED TO IS ****ING *ZELDA*?

YES I AM SUGGESTING THAT ZELDA GETS A TANGIBLE REWARD IF THE OPPONENT MAKES THE MISTAKE OF LETTING HER PUT OUT A DIN'S. I AM SUGGESTING THAT **** HURTS THEM IF THEY LET HER DO IT. I AM SUGGESTING ESTABLISHING A NON-NEGOTIOABLE ZONE OF CONTROL FOR A SLOW, LIGHT FLOATY CHARACTER WITH A SUBOPTIMAL COMBO GAME. HOW ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WE LET HER HAVE ANYTHING REMOTELY THREATENING. OR AN EDGEGUARD GAME. LE ****ING GASP.

HONESTLY, THIS ENTIRE THING IS POINTLESS. THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE DT. THEY'RE STUBBORN AND THEY'RE ALSO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REMOTELY IMAGINATIVE SINCE 3.02 AND ALL THE FLACK THEY GOT THEN. THEY'RE TOO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REVOLUTIONARY SINCE GETTING BURNED FROM THEN.

HONESTLY I GET THAT. I GET WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WANT TO WITHDRAW FROM THAT EXTREME HATRED AND SHUNNING, TO WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS LEGITIMATE. BUT WE'RE TRYING TO DO THIS TO PEOPLE THAT WILL NEVER SEE US AS LEGITIMATE. M2K'S OPINIONS WON'T CHANGE IF YOU KEEP LINK A CERTAIN WAY. LEFFEN WON'T SUDDENLY LOVE PM IF YOU CONVINCE HIM ZSS ISN'T BROKEN. AND BELIEVE ME ARMADA BEING ABLE TO USE MELEE FOX IN PM TO WIN A MAJOR AGAINST ONE OF THE BEST PM PLAYERS WITHOUT ANY PRACTICE IS, SHOCKINGLY ENOUGH, NOT GETTING HIM TO RESPECT PM MORE. IT MAY, IN FACT, BE HAVING THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

UNTIL THE DT GETS THAT WE ARE IN FACT NOT GOING TO GET SUPPORT FROM THESE PEOPLE, THAT WE SHOULD IN FACT BEING FOLLOWING A VISION FOR THIS GAME THAT WE AGREE ON AND NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN GET EVERYONE TO AGREE ON (NOT GOING TO ****ING HAPPEN) WE REALLY SHOULD JUST BE THINKING ABOUT EXACTLY HOW WE CONVINCE THEM THAT WE ARE IN FACT TIRED OF MELEE FOXES STAKING THEIR CLAIMS IN OUR GAME, AND THAT CONSIDERING HOW ****ING STUPID THAT CHARACTER IS, IT'S NOT SOMETHING TO BE ****ING ASHAMED OF. IT'S NOT ADMITTING WEAKNESS, IT'S JUST NO LONGER BEING WILLING TO PUT UP WITH ****TY GAME DESIGN.

BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR? WHAT WE ALL WANT? *GASP* IT'S *GOOD* *****ING* *GAME* *DESIGN*

*NOT* *MELEE* *FOX*

AND IRONICALLY THE WAY TO GET RESPECT FROM THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T RESPECT US? IT'S TO RESPECT OURSELVES, NOT PANDER TO THEM. IT'S TO STICK TO OUR GUNS, NOT BEG FOR THEIR UNDERSTANDING.

WHICH IS WHY, I CONTINUE TO SAY THIS, AND MEAN IT ENTIRELY.

AS A PLAYER WHO LOVES THIS GAME TO DEATH:

**** PM AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

TALIA OUT.

PS. NAUSICAA? SHUT UP.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Hmm. I actually read all of that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hmm. I actually read all of that.

I'M PROUD OF YOU.

 

[DrinkingFood]

HELLO EVERYONE I'M DRUNK AGAIN

I'M NOW GOING TO ASK WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU

BECAUSE FRANKLY BALANCING THIS GAME, AFTER ALL THESE VERSIONS AND ITERATIONS

AFTER ALL THE HARD STUFF ABOUT FINALIZING PLAYSTYLES AND MOVESETS IS DONE

[EXCEPT FOR NESS, I STILL STRONGLY BELIEVE WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF HIM DID NOT IN FACT HAVE A STRAIGHT-OUT DIRECTIONAL GAMEPLAN FOR NESS IN MIND]

[SEE ALSO: YOSHI, DK TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, EVEN GANON IN SOME SENSE, THESE CHARACTERS HAVE STRENGTHS THEY CAN PLAY TO BUT NO CLEAR WAY TO GO FROM A TO DEAD STOCK]

WE SIMPLY ARE LEFT WITH THE JOB OF TONING DOWN THOSE TOO GOOD AT THEIR JOBS

AND HELPING OUT THOSE BAD AT THEIR JOBS.

BUT FOR SOME REASON, WHERE NOT DOING THIS.

AND FRANKLY?

UNTIL WE GET TO THE BOTTOM ROOT OF THE REASON OF *WHY* WE'RE NOT DOING THIS

ANY DISCUSSION HERE IS PRETTY MUCH POINTLESS.

MY ADVICE IS TO JUST ****ING WISE UP AND LEAVE THE GAME EN MASSE UNTIL THE DT REALIZE THAT THE MELEE CROWD THEY'RE TRYING TO CATER TO DOESN'T GIVE A ****, SO THEY SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK INTO MAKING THIS AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DO IN FACT CARE ABOUT THIS GAME AND ITS FUTURE.

OOOOHHH I JUST PISSED PEOPLE OFF WITH THAT DIDN'T I

YEAH SHUT UP WITH THE 'GAME IS GOOD' BS NAUSICAA, NO, THE GAME IS CLEARLY BEING HELD BACK BY SOMEONE OR SOMEONES WHO DON'T HAVE THEIR PRIORITIES IN ORDER.

FRANKLY ... WHY IS LINK AS BAD AS HE IS JUST BECAUSE HIS GAMEPLAN REVOLVES AROUND PROJECTILES, WHEN FALCO *EXISTS*?

WHY EXACTLY IS ZELDA'S DIN'S A BORDERLINE IGNORABLE TOOL FOR FAST CHARACTERS? WHAT DOES A MOVE THAT FORCES CHARACTERS TO PUT OUT AN AERIAL MATTER, WHEN THE CHARACTER THAT MOVE IS ATTACHED TO CAN'T WHIFF PUNISH FOR ****?

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHY DOES SNAKE'S MINE GET TO EXPLODE AND HARM THE CHARACTER THAT BLEW IT UP, WHEN ZELDA'S DIN'S DOESN'T? IS THE IDEA OF AN AERIAL SNAKE MINE SO ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT THE CHARACTER SUCH A MOVE WOULD BE ATTACHED TO IS ****ING *ZELDA*?

YES I AM SUGGESTING THAT ZELDA GETS A TANGIBLE REWARD IF THE OPPONENT MAKES THE MISTAKE OF LETTING HER PUT OUT A DIN'S. I AM SUGGESTING THAT **** HURTS THEM IF THEY LET HER DO IT. I AM SUGGESTING ESTABLISHING A NON-NEGOTIOABLE ZONE OF CONTROL FOR A SLOW, LIGHT FLOATY CHARACTER WITH A SUBOPTIMAL COMBO GAME. HOW ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WE LET HER HAVE ANYTHING REMOTELY THREATENING. OR AN EDGEGUARD GAME. LE ****ING GASP.

HONESTLY, THIS ENTIRE THING IS POINTLESS. THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE DT. THEY'RE STUBBORN AND THEY'RE ALSO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REMOTELY IMAGINATIVE SINCE 3.02 AND ALL THE FLACK THEY GOT THEN. THEY'RE TOO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REVOLUTIONARY SINCE GETTING BURNED FROM THEN.

HONESTLY I GET THAT. I GET WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WANT TO WITHDRAW FROM THAT EXTREME HATRED AND SHUNNING, TO WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS LEGITIMATE. BUT WE'RE TRYING TO DO THIS TO PEOPLE THAT WILL NEVER SEE US AS LEGITIMATE. M2K'S OPINIONS WON'T CHANGE IF YOU KEEP LINK A CERTAIN WAY. LEFFEN WON'T SUDDENLY LOVE PM IF YOU CONVINCE HIM ZSS ISN'T BROKEN. AND BELIEVE ME ARMADA BEING ABLE TO USE MELEE FOX IN PM TO WIN A MAJOR AGAINST ONE OF THE BEST PM PLAYERS WITHOUT ANY PRACTICE IS, SHOCKINGLY ENOUGH, NOT GETTING HIM TO RESPECT PM MORE. IT MAY, IN FACT, BE HAVING THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

UNTIL THE DT GETS THAT WE ARE IN FACT NOT GOING TO GET SUPPORT FROM THESE PEOPLE, THAT WE SHOULD IN FACT BEING FOLLOWING A VISION FOR THIS GAME THAT WE AGREE ON AND NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN GET EVERYONE TO AGREE ON (NOT GOING TO ****ING HAPPEN) WE REALLY SHOULD JUST BE THINKING ABOUT EXACTLY HOW WE CONVINCE THEM THAT WE ARE IN FACT TIRED OF MELEE FOXES STAKING THEIR CLAIMS IN OUR GAME, AND THAT CONSIDERING HOW ****ING STUPID THAT CHARACTER IS, IT'S NOT SOMETHING TO BE ****ING ASHAMED OF. IT'S NOT ADMITTING WEAKNESS, IT'S JUST NO LONGER BEING WILLING TO PUT UP WITH ****TY GAME DESIGN.

BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR? WHAT WE ALL WANT? *GASP* IT'S *GOOD* *****ING* *GAME* *DESIGN*

*NOT* *MELEE* *FOX*

AND IRONICALLY THE WAY TO GET RESPECT FROM THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T RESPECT US? IT'S TO RESPECT OURSELVES, NOT PANDER TO THEM. IT'S TO STICK TO OUR GUNS, NOT BEG FOR THEIR UNDERSTANDING.

WHICH IS WHY, I CONTINUE TO SAY THIS, AND MEAN IT ENTIRELY.

AS A PLAYER WHO LOVES THIS GAME TO DEATH:

**** PM AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

TALIA OUT.

PS. NAUSICAA? SHUT UP.

I hope you come back and read this when you're sober

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I hope you come back and read this when you're sober

I'M PLANNING ON IT

PRETTY SURE I'M GOING TO REGRET IT

IDK MIGHT LEAVE SMASHBOARDS FOREVER

 

[Saproling]

PMDT please don't take away the fodder of bad foxes their ******** is what sustains me.

 

[Deleted member]

i didnt read any of it but nausicaa hate lol

 

[Nausicaa]

I thought there wouldn't be another post that particularly prompts me to say anything in this thread, but thank you oh my god. I feel very similarly about a fair amount of characers that you've mentioned. Great job.

That was just supposed to be a rough outline about a few 'ideas' to help spread some light on a different way of looking at things in the game, but I guess I did get pretty elaborate about the specifics of characters in there. haha
I should rant about all of them, but that would take several major threads worth of writing. (DATs +)

From basically every conversation I've had with almost every solid DT member from you to Sethlon about nearly anything, it has always lead me to a sense that you all, somewhere deep down if you can't articulate it, know all of the stuff I say about the game. Like any time I describe these things, it's just more wording to help people understand the stuff you already know. Like the core of the DT knows what's up or something.
I've for sure noticed how everything from direct comments about it pointing at key things to something as simple as Shadic liking the posts where I talk about these things in enough depth.

Hence so much of the patch updates tend to line up with what I've been saying since I started playing the game. in 2.1 I get a lot of confidence from speaking with people about these things at this level of depth, it seems everyone 'gets' it but it's just too hard to see and make sense of, and some of the core DT being in the thick of it, they've all 'gotten' it quite a bit by now. Including you of course.

The confusing depth of this stuff can still leave room for things like the 'silliness' of indecisiveness or too many voices or inadequate testing or bias decisions or whatever comes in, but I trust the PMDT because of the talks I've had with them. Hence we get misfits like annoying characters and some changes that probably shouldn't happen.
It should 'keep' working out though. Smart work is steps forward and back, lots of them.
You got this.

I mean that's good advice and all, but really general advice that anyone can state for any character. I guess that's probably your point, but if we're going to assume specific character selection matters, which it must whether on the surface level of the things this characters can do or the don't even need floaties (lifesavers not jiggs) level of what the player can do with the character in relation to the player (ad infinitum I guess), then I would feel that your answer didn't actually address what I was looking for assuming I wanted you to say something that can be said about link (call it the platonic form of link since you don't have enough information to address the platonic form of me playing link).
I get that youre trying to help me. You did this. I don't think I want help though, just perspective in all its unhelpfulness the way a drawing of a hammer doesn't really help you build a house. What do you think of link in 3.6? Does he deserve the triforce of courage based upon what he knows how to do and what he seems obviously afraid of doing?

What I meant by that was more about how Link will always be a contender, while still being on the weak end. It for sure lines up with 'advice on how to play him' so I'll try wording it differently.
Bluntly, Link is on the weak side for sure. I'd probably put him in the bottom 8 or so in the game if I made a flat-list type of tier-list.
BUT
He turns the macro-game into a micro-game, and that can be played with to such an extent that it can essentially become a game of both RNG, and systematic bare-bones play.
Essential in the sense that, even with his 'weak in the overall game' status and strength as a character, his game-plan can bring the game to a simple enough game on a large-distance-spacing-and-maneuvering-game that the differences between HIM and the opponent are minute enough to not hinder him as much as they really should on a statistical/charting level. (simply put, he can strip the game of a LOT and therefore limit what the game being played actually involves. So if he's worse than the opposing character, he can make things a lot LESS worse because of HOW he works)
With that, his entire macro-spacing game (over-committing and under-committing from both him and his opponent when it comes to a great-neutral-game) is something he controls as if it were a micro-spacing game (tiny pokes and the littlest pixels making all the difference)
This allows him to play a bit of a dictator role in the way it works. A random-factor that he's in control of from the MACRO level, the over-arching scope of a match-up.

It's the problem with Fox. If he was all micro-games and the inner-activities of combat at work, he'd be cool. His macro-control, of controlling when and if these inner-activities of direct-combat happen at all, is why he can appear so overbearing as a character that can have no weaknesses, and simply have match-ups he's not 'strong' in.
Link has control over the macro-game in this sense. Not in the same way, but in a way that he turns the macro-game INTO the micro-game.

Link will always work (even in terrible match-ups) long-term, because he can screw around so much in an over-arching macro-game before the micro-game comes into play, that he can *win it in the micro of the macro, before he can *lose it in the macro of the micro.
That make sense?
I think he has enough for that. Which is a lot given how slow and polarizing he could be.
I think Ivy is worse of then him, but fits the same feel. Just needs to lean more on the aggressor-side, which is a lot tougher, and she's not fully built for that so just becomes a weaker character if that's what's called from her.

It's like how CF and Pika were struggling with Sheik for ages, but the microing of the macro-game has leveled it out.
Link functions to that end, but the way Ivy does. If people can out-camp him, he's done. If people can get in on him, he's done. If people can do either of these, he STILL can level the playing field by means of simplifying the available options (think of it like... nullifying play. Fighting a Ganon takes a very different 'play' than fighting a Falco. More patience, less tricks and hard reads to catch him or break through, more steady play and consistency. It actually 'shrinks' the gap between the skill-level of players in the same stroke.)
Link can do this. Shrink the skill-level of both players and characters, and RNG mess-around with things to such a threatening extent that it doesn't even matter if the character/opponent is better, it can be turned into a guessing game.

He'll still be 'weak' in a lot of things that break him, but he can never be 'out' unlike a few others. (Ganon/Bowser lol)
Even if 1 or both of them is better. haha

A problem that I am having with your post (which could mean others as well) is that you are bringing up valid points and arguments, but addressing so many at the same time that the only way to avoid a 14 page report post is to be very general in discussing some topics you bring up. In this one in particular, each one is a valid question, but will probably get lost in the clutter of this thread even though it is very good for discussion, which would be a shame since a lot of thought went into creating this post.

Right now I am speaking on specifically pikachu, and like you I found it silly that pikachu could do well vs fox and mewtwo, (two characters at the dominate spectrum of the tier list at the time) and still be considered bad. While you brought up many of the positive attributes of the character, what wasn't brought into full detail were the issues that pikachu faced that hurt the characters placement in that patch.

In terms of worst relevant matchup, losing to Mario was really detrimental in 3.02 due to just how easy the character was to use, combined with how common it was to run into said character. (We both agree it is a bad m.u for pikachu so no point in addressing the specifics of that matchup at this time.)
Losing to Falco, and not having a winning matchup vs pit makes it difficult to solo main pikachu, and arguably enough reason to not be in top tier discussion when you consider going even at best vs diddy and lucas as well.

As for what keeps pikachu out of high/mid, the answer to that is something that shouldn't have merit on a tier list but always does. That yellow ball of hate is hard as **** to play with at a consistent lvl, and any tiny form of human error is enough to open you up to a huge punish on a far larger scale than other characters. (Our crimson viper)

And finally I would like to address the arguably lowest tier character pikachu lost to, dk. Dk while having exploitable cons across the board, does have good defining attributes as well, that allows for all of the positive aspects of the pikachu vs marth m.u, except at a safer ending range and more shield hitstun on contact. While it would be easy to state lack of m.u knowledge, the results were pretty consistent through the entirety of the game. Dk's invincible nair arms that importantly covered his entire body, Bair wall, on par movement speed, and extremely strong punish game were good enough to provide safe on shield pressure, and enough speed and disjoint to negate pika's great burst movement. Since dk was not that common in 3.02, the m.u itself should not have held as much ground on pikachu's placement, but for some reason not having a winning m.u against dk automatically makes you low tier or worst despite the rest of the m.u spread over 41 characters to many people.

Makes sense. It's pretty common to get the stream-of-thought comment about my posting.
It's there for reading and striking nerves I guess, and for those who have a lot of extra effort to actually continue discussing the weird things I bring up.

Tru dat/good post/etc to the rest.

It for sure still doesn't warrant a bottom-5 placement on a list, and I see how it could. I still look at it from the other side. In that, having distinct things holding a character back from top-of-the-top should make it a lot easier to tell that they're top. If Pikachu COULD handle Mario (and characters like him) (which he totally can, it's just a different game that's going through the Pika loses to Shiek phase now that Mario is a threat too, and it won't be too bad in the end), then he'd be pretty silly.


The fact that a character can be commonly considered busted on general terms (Fox/3.02 Pit) BUT a character can't be considered JUST AS busted on specific terms instead (old Ivy that Odds complained about, or the centralization of CF/Snake/TL, etc), shows more to me about how people are looking at the game, rather than it does about the content of the game.

The same goes for characters on the lower-end too, general always seen as better than specific in all areas. Busted as in 'bad' on the low end means all attention goes to the specifics that are labelled directly (fatties and whatever gets hard-countered), while the general-bad is seen much less because it's not up-front and obviously bad in some way. It's not as 'apparently' horrible.
Hence the balance of someone like Pit is hard to see and tweak, but elements can observably break on someone like Ness/Ivy/Bowser/Diddy.
That's kiiiind of the point I was leaning toward with that big post. Hope that makes sense.
edit: Read that and it's confusing^
Re-wrote it in editing

tl;dr
Very much yes, but there was 1 more layer to it and it's the one I care about. (people dictate things, my purpose is for the former over the latter)

@ Thane of Blue Flames
I think you'd be surprised (well, of course you'd be, everything I say is seemingly surprising lol) with the changes I'd make to the game.

Nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs
With like maybe a tweak or 2 that aren't nerfs/buffs
Then more nerfs.
Basically no buffs...
lol

 

[DMG]

"Make Pikachu smaller"

- Actual quote on Pika boards

Now this is a change I can get behind. Top tier marshmallow size Pikachu incoming. Prepare to destroy MU's