Tier List Speculation

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

HELLO EVERYONE I'M DRUNK AGAIN

I'M NOW GOING TO ASK WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU

BECAUSE FRANKLY BALANCING THIS GAME, AFTER ALL THESE VERSIONS AND ITERATIONS

AFTER ALL THE HARD STUFF ABOUT FINALIZING PLAYSTYLES AND MOVESETS IS DONE

[EXCEPT FOR NESS, I STILL STRONGLY BELIEVE WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF HIM DID NOT IN FACT HAVE A STRAIGHT-OUT DIRECTIONAL GAMEPLAN FOR NESS IN MIND]

[SEE ALSO: YOSHI, DK TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, EVEN GANON IN SOME SENSE, THESE CHARACTERS HAVE STRENGTHS THEY CAN PLAY TO BUT NO CLEAR WAY TO GO FROM A TO DEAD STOCK]

WE SIMPLY ARE LEFT WITH THE JOB OF TONING DOWN THOSE TOO GOOD AT THEIR JOBS

AND HELPING OUT THOSE BAD AT THEIR JOBS.

BUT FOR SOME REASON, WHERE NOT DOING THIS.

AND FRANKLY?

UNTIL WE GET TO THE BOTTOM ROOT OF THE REASON OF *WHY* WE'RE NOT DOING THIS

ANY DISCUSSION HERE IS PRETTY MUCH POINTLESS.

MY ADVICE IS TO JUST ****ING WISE UP AND LEAVE THE GAME EN MASSE UNTIL THE DT REALIZE THAT THE MELEE CROWD THEY'RE TRYING TO CATER TO DOESN'T GIVE A ****, SO THEY SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK INTO MAKING THIS AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DO IN FACT CARE ABOUT THIS GAME AND ITS FUTURE.

OOOOHHH I JUST PISSED PEOPLE OFF WITH THAT DIDN'T I

YEAH SHUT UP WITH THE 'GAME IS GOOD' BS NAUSICAA, NO, THE GAME IS CLEARLY BEING HELD BACK BY SOMEONE OR SOMEONES WHO DON'T HAVE THEIR PRIORITIES IN ORDER.

FRANKLY ... WHY IS LINK AS BAD AS HE IS JUST BECAUSE HIS GAMEPLAN REVOLVES AROUND PROJECTILES, WHEN FALCO *EXISTS*?

WHY EXACTLY IS ZELDA'S DIN'S A BORDERLINE IGNORABLE TOOL FOR FAST CHARACTERS? WHAT DOES A MOVE THAT FORCES CHARACTERS TO PUT OUT AN AERIAL MATTER, WHEN THE CHARACTER THAT MOVE IS ATTACHED TO CAN'T WHIFF PUNISH FOR ****?

AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHY DOES SNAKE'S MINE GET TO EXPLODE AND HARM THE CHARACTER THAT BLEW IT UP, WHEN ZELDA'S DIN'S DOESN'T? IS THE IDEA OF AN AERIAL SNAKE MINE SO ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT THE CHARACTER SUCH A MOVE WOULD BE ATTACHED TO IS ****ING *ZELDA*?

YES I AM SUGGESTING THAT ZELDA GETS A TANGIBLE REWARD IF THE OPPONENT MAKES THE MISTAKE OF LETTING HER PUT OUT A DIN'S. I AM SUGGESTING THAT **** HURTS THEM IF THEY LET HER DO IT. I AM SUGGESTING ESTABLISHING A NON-NEGOTIOABLE ZONE OF CONTROL FOR A SLOW, LIGHT FLOATY CHARACTER WITH A SUBOPTIMAL COMBO GAME. HOW ****ING PREPOSTEROUS WE LET HER HAVE ANYTHING REMOTELY THREATENING. OR AN EDGEGUARD GAME. LE ****ING GASP.

HONESTLY, THIS ENTIRE THING IS POINTLESS. THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE DT. THEY'RE STUBBORN AND THEY'RE ALSO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REMOTELY IMAGINATIVE SINCE 3.02 AND ALL THE FLACK THEY GOT THEN. THEY'RE TOO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING REVOLUTIONARY SINCE GETTING BURNED FROM THEN.

HONESTLY I GET THAT. I GET WHAT IT'S LIKE TO WANT TO WITHDRAW FROM THAT EXTREME HATRED AND SHUNNING, TO WANT TO PROVE YOURSELVES AS LEGITIMATE. BUT WE'RE TRYING TO DO THIS TO PEOPLE THAT WILL NEVER SEE US AS LEGITIMATE. M2K'S OPINIONS WON'T CHANGE IF YOU KEEP LINK A CERTAIN WAY. LEFFEN WON'T SUDDENLY LOVE PM IF YOU CONVINCE HIM ZSS ISN'T BROKEN. AND BELIEVE ME ARMADA BEING ABLE TO USE MELEE FOX IN PM TO WIN A MAJOR AGAINST ONE OF THE BEST PM PLAYERS WITHOUT ANY PRACTICE IS, SHOCKINGLY ENOUGH, NOT GETTING HIM TO RESPECT PM MORE. IT MAY, IN FACT, BE HAVING THE OPPOSITE EFFECT.

UNTIL THE DT GETS THAT WE ARE IN FACT NOT GOING TO GET SUPPORT FROM THESE PEOPLE, THAT WE SHOULD IN FACT BEING FOLLOWING A VISION FOR THIS GAME THAT WE AGREE ON AND NOT SOMETHING THAT WE CAN GET EVERYONE TO AGREE ON (NOT GOING TO ****ING HAPPEN) WE REALLY SHOULD JUST BE THINKING ABOUT EXACTLY HOW WE CONVINCE THEM THAT WE ARE IN FACT TIRED OF MELEE FOXES STAKING THEIR CLAIMS IN OUR GAME, AND THAT CONSIDERING HOW ****ING STUPID THAT CHARACTER IS, IT'S NOT SOMETHING TO BE ****ING ASHAMED OF. IT'S NOT ADMITTING WEAKNESS, IT'S JUST NO LONGER BEING WILLING TO PUT UP WITH ****TY GAME DESIGN.

BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR? WHAT WE ALL WANT? *GASP* IT'S *GOOD* *****ING* *GAME* *DESIGN*

*NOT* *MELEE* *FOX*

AND IRONICALLY THE WAY TO GET RESPECT FROM THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T RESPECT US? IT'S TO RESPECT OURSELVES, NOT PANDER TO THEM. IT'S TO STICK TO OUR GUNS, NOT BEG FOR THEIR UNDERSTANDING.

WHICH IS WHY, I CONTINUE TO SAY THIS, AND MEAN IT ENTIRELY.

AS A PLAYER WHO LOVES THIS GAME TO DEATH:

**** PM AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

TALIA OUT.

PS. NAUSICAA? SHUT UP.

I read all of this.
Can someone link that armada set that he's talking about though?

 

[Nausicaa]

Make CF's U-Air hit-box start later in the animation and trajectory sending further vertically. (more interesting combos and less linear flow-chart non-interactive easy stuff)
Make CF's Grab shorter and U-Throw send further horizontally. (because he's fast and can get Grabs/follow-ups anyway)
Make CF's Nipple-Spike a tiny hit-box rather than his whole body. (because really)
Make CF's aerial Falcon Kick have more lag upon landing. (because really)
Make CF's N-Air have more KBG and less BKB on the 2nd hit-box (like every other move in the game getting the same treatment while deserving it less)
Make CF's F-Smash the 64 spin-kick. (slightly more lag and more range)
Make CF's U-Smash the 64 uppercut. (V shaped anti-air with very little for grounded hit-box, hit-boxes send far horizontally if not sweet-spotted in the center to send vertically.)

Make CF's Falcon Punch fly across the entire stage like a big fiery bird of one-shot death projectile if he spins around the max number of times when charging.


Take that @ DMG and your patronizing of the pika

 

[DMG]

*She

Do not incur the wrath of drunk ToBF!

The wrath which Fox inflicts on this game! #1 for lyfe

Edit: Falcon Nipple spike is like highest Dair hitbox or something. I WISH it was his whole body, plz

 

[Nausicaa]

Should be lower
And half the size
Dair lower legs
Nipple spike now a hip spike
stupid melee

 

[FreeGamer]

I enjoyed that rant. It's nice to see a non-Zelda who realizes how mediocre current Din's is. <3

 

[LupinX]

what do you guys think of Lucario right now?

 

[Life]

I kinda wish I could play Lucario. im2slow tho

Probably still pretty good on the basis that he can get hard punishes and can make stuff safe by canceling into other stuff, I guess?

 

[King of Hoboz]

I enjoyed that rant. It's nice to see a non-Zelda who realizes how mediocre current Din's is. <3

And I'm surprised that making Zelda's Din behave like Snake's mine has never been suggested here (has it?). It's such a good idea to improve the current Din's

 

[PlateProp]

People have clamored for DT to actually cater to pm players instead of melee players since 3.5, but it keeps falling on deaf ears :/

 

[Nausicaa]

People have clamored for DT to actually cater to pm players instead of melee players since 3.5, but it keeps falling on deaf ears :/

Well now we have a drunk-post who gives multiple shout-outs to the smartest person who ever posted, so with that epic name-dropping, lets see if it works this time.
*twiddles thumbs

I enjoyed that rant. It's nice to see a non-Zelda who realizes how mediocre current Din's is. <3

waaaiiiit a second
I think I've been living under a rock.
When did someone ever say it was NOT bad?

It's all a slippery slope, but given the slow-and-steadiness of tuning, it's being done properly.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-fox-falco-change-discussion-please-read-1st-post.340338/

41 characters is a lot of characters. Having 6-8ish shipped over nearly directly from another game has been a saving grace, not a hindrance.
3.02 came slow. After multiple swings back and forth, however many patches that is from close to not-quite, let alone time and unreleased turnings.
The turn back is like the continuation of the pendulum, not the falling away of bricks.
Lots of momentum (big things) slowing down piece by piece, then momentum again.
1 good thing we have had swinging in the core of that marble going click. clack. click. clack.
Is Fox and friends to hold it all together.
The gravity of the game and community pulling everything into a ball, and when its tight enough that it won't fall apart with Melee-characters gone completely, then they can join the new momentum and swing of the clicking and clacking that the rest of the perfectly-fit cast has started.
So far, so good.
Fall away too soon, and the thing swings off-balance and needs to be put back together and rearranged, fall away too late, and all you have is a bunch of whiners about how it's time to fall away before it finally falls away.
The former is bad, the latter is acceptable.
Shape up your comprehension of how development works, scrubs.

 

[LupinX]

And I'm surprised that making Zelda's Din behave like Snake's mine has never been suggested here (has it?). It's such a good idea to improve the current Din's

It should tbh. Though it should hurt Zelda if stationary

People have clamored for DT to actually cater to pm players instead of melee players since 3.5, but it keeps falling on deaf ears :/

This by a million!!

 

[JOE!]

Would it really have been so bad if the melee chars weren't in?

I mean really, do you see new characters with Dsmashes that can do 67%, Fairs that kill at 60% on a character with tremendous speed, unclankable land cancelled projectiles that go on forever, etc on anyone else?

 

[NWRL]

(Angry, drunk, nonsensical rant.)

I agree with appealing to PM players foremost, BUT at the same time we need to make sure we're not allowing dumb **** to be in the game.

See: 3.02 as a whole, 3.5 Bowser, 3.5 Falcon's uthrow

We don't need to be toning down characters that are good at what they do, that is exactly how you get people to quit the game. I don't know about you but I don't give a flying **** about whether or not a character is well designed if the character isn't satisfying to play. We need to find a standard (like Marth) and aim for that standard when balancing characters.

Link isn't bad, and you're bad if you think he is. He's Melee Link with nothing but buffs, the ability to AGT, and new zair tech. HeroOfTime shows that the character can be played at the highest level in PM currently.

Stop pointing to Fox as some sort of demon who is the bane of all things game design. Fox is the one of the reasons this game even exists, same with all of the Melee top tiers, all of them are kinetic and satisfying to play. They inspired people to love Melee, and from that love for Melee, PM was made. It seems like most PM players just want a game where people flopping wet noodles at each other for 6 minutes (much like LoL) instead of a game where each character is unique and has SATISFYING AND POWERFUL TRAITS.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I agree with appealing to PM players foremost, BUT at the same time we need to make sure we're not allowing dumb **** to be in the game.

See: 3.02 as a whole, 3.5 Bowser, 3.5 Falcon's uthrow

We don't need to be toning down characters that are good at what they do, that is exactly how you get people to quit the game. I don't know about you but I don't give a flying **** about whether or not a character is well designed if the character isn't satisfying to play. We need to find a standard (like Marth) and aim for that standard when balancing characters.

Link isn't bad, and you're bad if you think he is. He's Melee Link with nothing but buffs, the ability to AGT, and new zair tech. HeroOfTime shows that the character can be played at the highest level in PM currently.

Stop pointing to Fox as some sort of demon who is the bane of all things game design. Fox is the one of the reasons this game even exists, same with all of the Melee top tiers, all of them are kinetic, and satisfying to play. They inspired people to love Melee, and from that love for Melee, PM was made. It seems like most PM players just want a game where people flopping wet noodles at each other for 6 minutes (much like LoL) instead of a game where each character is unique and has SATISFYING AND POWERFUL TRAITS.

As long as your saying that bowser's armour was dumb and that he was not op because of it but his ledge attack in the early versions was...rough lol, I actually really like what they have done to bowser so far however, i just wish he had more tools to deal with camps and combos. That being said, what trait effects how the characters DI is? Like i notice that dedede and dk and bowser all have miserable di (IE i can still KK chain grab these characters even if they DI perfectly).

 

[NWRL]

That's exactly what I referring to, the character wasn't OP by any means, but he had a lot of stupid traits that held the character back. I think the buffs in 3.6 were definitely what was needed. He's pretty solid now imo

 

[JOE!]

Its less they cannot DI as much, more they Di but are so big that it doesnt matter.


To give an example of why being big blows:

A normal character when hit at a 45* angle can DI Up to be sent at a 63* angle or down to be sent away at a 27* angle. A big character, outside of being hit far away, often occupies two of those angles at once as opposed to one like a smaller character would.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Its less they cannot DI as much, more they Di but are so big that it doesnt matter.

Is there a way to fix that? I mean i can literally KK air grab from 0-death on dedede,bowser, and dk. That really should not be a thing, and im sure other characters can do weird things that should not be actual things. (IE as bowser i was chain up smashed by zelda from 0-70 all while in hitstun)

 

[JOE!]

Not really, because being big = not a cool space animal or anime character so the chances of them actually being good ever are slim to none.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Not really, because being big = not a cool space animal or anime character so the chances of them actually being good ever are slim to none.

And that also means that your grab also dosn't have crazy range

 

[Boiko]

(IE as bowser i was chain up smashed by zelda from 0-70 all while in hitstun)

Huh? That shouldn't work. You should be able to jump out after two at the most. Don't DI left/right.

 

[Chevy]

Is there a way to fix that? I mean i can literally KK air grab from 0-death on dedede,bowser, and dk. That really should not be a thing, and im sure other characters can do weird things that should not be actual things. (IE as bowser i was chain up smashed by zelda from 0-70 all while in hitstun)

I was really surprised when no one corrected you the first time you claimed certain characters had better DI. To my knowledge, everyone can DI 18 degrees to either direction of the initial launch angle. And if you're consistently chaining Koopa Klaws on anyone, they are not DIing properly.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I was really surprised when no one corrected you the first time you claimed certain characters had better DI. To my knowledge, everyone can DI 18 degrees to either direction of the initial launch angle. And if you're consistently chaining Koopa Klaws on anyone, they are not DIing properly.

Have you tried KK chaining dk, bowser, or dedede? Because i seriously disagree. Its a stupid niche but bowser can KK chain big characters. Maybe all di is the same, but there is definately something weird about dk's DI in particular (it sucks, like to the point of making no difference of escaping a combo)

And as for the zelda thing, no i was locked in hit stun and could not jump. I won the match, but it was definately something that happened and was on stream

 

[Boiko]

Have you tried KK chaining dk, bowser, or dedede? Because i seriously disagree. Its a stupid niche but bowser can KK chain big characters. Maybe all di is the same, but there is definately something weird about dk's DI in particular (it sucks, like to the point of making no difference of escaping a combo)

And as for the zelda thing, no i was locked in hit stun and could not jump. I won the match, but it was definately something that happened and was on stream

Heavy characters suffer less hit stun than lighter characters, you should be able to jump out. That's like, six up smashes.

As Chevy said, all characters can DI every move 18 degrees in either direction from the launch angle. DK doesn't have objectively worse DI. JOE! explained what is more than likely occurring. Due to the size of Donkey Kong's hurt boxes, you're able to reach him whereas you can't reach a smaller character. I would need to test al of this to be certain though.

 

[Sardonyx]

Is there a way to fix that? I mean i can literally KK air grab from 0-death on dedede,bowser, and dk. That really should not be a thing, and im sure other characters can do weird things that should not be actual things. (IE as bowser i was chain up smashed by zelda from 0-70 all while in hitstun)

You should definitely go into debug mode to see that you can't be chained by that much with her, though I do agree that her up smash is stupid now.

 

[MLGF]

When you release a sequel or update a fighting game, you unbiasedly nerf all characters that are problems without exception.
That's really all there is to it.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

You should definitely go into debug mode to see that you can't be chained by that much with her, though I do agree that her up smash is stupid now.

albeit this was 3.5, but i feel like it can be done a few times in succession on a dumb flat stage

 

[NWRL]

When you release a sequel or update a fighting game, you unbiasedly nerf all characters that are problems without exception.
That's really all there is to it.

Yeah and that's fine and expected.

The magnitude of the nerfs is almost always something minor to make them slightly less good at what they're doing. Look at the changes to Akuma, Cammy, and Adon from AE to USFIV. All of these characters are STILL in the higher end of the tiers despite the nerfs they got.

What you guys are asking for is to flat out butcher the characters lol or change the playstyle behind them. After Akuma's nerfs, he's still Akuma, he still throws fireballs in the air and has ridiculous pressure. Adon still ****s on fireball users and Cammy is still one of the best rushdown characters in the game. PAL nerfs to Fox are fine, nerfs to remove invincibility on shine are fine. Anything to change playstyle or muscle memory on Fox or any other character is not fine.

This post by a WoW CM echoes my feeling about the PM community as a whole:

"Until you see some bright-eyed player coming onto the forums wanting to know what they should spec as this class, and see them **** on and driven away by petty and selfish people who are simply leveraging for game buffs, you will not understand. "

Devs communicating with the community is a good idea to foster a good relationship, but in most cases the community gets a big head and people who don't really have any credibility or ability to make game balance decisions start holding their opinion as a gold standard

 

[Player -0]

Speaking of transparency I loved Cmart's post on the Bowser forums for the 3.6Full changes. It explained the thought process, what was happening, etc. If something similar happened to other characters on patches (maybe a week or 2 after the changes occur) I think that would be awesome.

 

[MLGF]

Yeah and that's fine and expected.

The magnitude of the nerfs is almost always something minor to make them slightly less good at what they're doing. Look at the changes to Akuma, Cammy, and Adon from AE to USFIV. All of these characters are STILL in the higher end of the tiers despite the nerfs they got.

What you guys are asking for is to flat out butcher the characters lol or change the playstyle behind them. After Akuma's nerfs, he's still Akuma, he still throws fireballs in the air and has ridiculous pressure. Adon still ****s on fireball users and Cammy is still one of the best rushdown characters in the game. PAL nerfs to Fox are fine, nerfs to remove invincibility on shine are fine. Anything to change playstyle or muscle memory on Fox or any other character is not fine.

This post by a WoW CM echoes my feeling about the PM community as a whole:

"Until you see some bright-eyed player coming onto the forums wanting to know what they should spec as this class, and see them **** on and driven away by petty and selfish people who are simply leveraging for game buffs, you will not understand. "

Devs communicating with the community is a good idea to foster a good relationship, but in most cases the community gets a big head and people who don't really have any credibility or ability to make game balance decisions start holding their opinion as a gold standard

Look, I don't think we want different things.
I'm fine with characters getting minor changes, anything this deep in development would be insane.
But Melee characters should NOT be immune. If any Melee character is dominating and can get away with playing every matchup the same, they deserve nerfs just as much as everyone else.

Only exception is Fox because designing a character around human error is amateur design. But I'll settle for his rewards being brought down exponentially since we're this deep in.

 

[Manaconda]

Look, I don't think we want different things.
I'm fine with characters getting minor changes, anything this deep in development would be insane.
But Melee characters should NOT be immune. If any Melee character is dominating and can get away with playing every matchup the same, they deserve nerfs just as much as everyone else.

Only exception is Fox because designing a character around human error is amateur design. But I'll settle for his rewards being brought down exponentially since we're this deep in.

Besides Fox (and possibly Falco), what other Melee character is generally perceived to dominate and play every matchup the same? What other Melee character can't be kept in line by other characters?

Each of them has strengths that they can play to, but it's not like Sheik is literally 'grab: the character' or Peach is 'dsmash: the character' or all Marth does is dash dance and dtilt. All of those have to adapt and change their gameplan depending on who they go up against. Falcon isn't monotonous in his MUs either.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Meant to post this yesterday when the KK discussion happened but w/e. I doubt it would work on any character with good DI, but IF there's a character it would work on, it's DK. DK is the only semi FFing fatty. All the other semi FFers are either small or average in size- Roy, diddy, Lucas, MK, think I'm missing one. DDD is close, but he's more of an average faller (depends on where you draw the line) and has other good survivability traits and less vulnerability when airborne. Point is tho, DK is like the most punishable character in the game lol. I'm honestly not even convinced that he punishes most characters harder than they punish him, yet his punish game is often paraded as his strongest trait.

 

[MLGF]

Besides Fox (and possibly Falco), what other Melee character is generally perceived to dominate and play every matchup the same? What other Melee character can't be kept in line by other characters?

Each of them has strengths that they can play to, but it's not like Sheik is literally 'grab: the character' or Peach is 'dsmash: the character' or all Marth does is dash dance and dtilt. All of those have to adapt and change their gameplan depending on who they go up against. Falcon isn't monotonous in his MUs either.

The fact Marth is a "gatekeeper" feels strangely odd to me, coming from a non Smash background.

Also, on a topic I never felt like addressing before, I'll be that guy and say Roy/Ike were balanced around being as good as Marth and not being as good as the rest of the cast (hence, why they're all in roughly the same spot in most tier lists). It just feels as if there is a slight power creep that happens with the Melee characters and their derivatives.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I still think Roy is a top ten character...he's still better Marth.
Not being able to fraud your way through recoveries anymore is hardly a nerf IMO, and to say that he should drop X amount of places on a tier list just because he got [nerfs] going into 3.6b is silly considering the modesty of his changes.
Might be bringing out my Roy at paragon depending on how confident I am in my ROB. Roy actually seems way easier to problem solve with, anytime I solve something with ROB I feel like I have to do it in some roundabout nature, IE throwing gyro at falco lasers to not get locked down in shield. But with Roy I just powershield wavedash and eventually, I grab the falco, and the falco dies. If I'm being walled out, with ROB I have to use the opportunity to get gyro out and in hand, which I then use to force an opening... With Roy I run in shield->grab, and probably get a harder punish in the process. Not saying Roy is better than ROB or anything, but I feel like I can improve with him at a faster rate

 

[NWRL]

I think Ike is a little bit weaker than Marth and Roy, but he has really solid matchups against most of the Melee vets, and the top characters right now so that puts him in a good place on the list. I used to think that he has overbearing traits but lately I've changed my mind with that, some decent matchup experience on the part of the opponent makes my job quite a bit harder as Ike.

QD covers all possible options and can't be reacted to tho

 

[KinGly]

QD covers all possible options and can't be reacted to tho

QuickDraw is a f***ing burst movement shine

/s

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Meant to post this yesterday when the KK discussion happened but w/e. I doubt it would work on any character with good DI, but IF there's a character it would work on, it's DK. DK is the only semi FFing fatty. All the other semi FFers are either small or average in size- Roy, diddy, Lucas, MK, think I'm missing one. DDD is close, but he's more of an average faller (depends on where you draw the line) and has other good survivability traits and less vulnerability when airborne. Point is tho, DK is like the most punishable character in the game lol. I'm honestly not even convinced that he punishes most characters harder than they punish him, yet his punish game is often paraded as his strongest trait.

I mean a KK into an airborne KK, slowing the animation, landing, airborne KK until kill percent.

It works with all the the fat ones, it involves chasing. But even with good Di away, bowser can still catch them before hit stun wears off. It is not a true easy chain grab, but its definately doable.

 

[Spralwers]

I still think Roy is a top ten character...he's still better Marth.

I've noticed this is a fairly popular opinion in the south. Can I get some reasoning on this?

I'd be most convinced by argument of MU spreads. Does Roy have a better spread overall? What troublesome MUs does Marth have that Roy is clearly better in, and does that make up for any MUs where Roy struggles with that Marth does better in (if any)?

 

[JOE!]

I think it stems more from the two generally having a similar gameplan, but Roy lacks the weakness of "Marth Syndrome" where he can KO reasonably at any time and not just really early with bad DI or really late.

 

[NWRL]

Plus he has an aerial that can kill that isn't a spike. That's pretty huge

 

[Mc.Rad]

QuickDraw is a f***ing burst movement shine

/s

RIP all Shinedashers