A bunch of you basically started to nail it there.
Just to add to what was there.
1) Really plainly. - Lock-down in the form of hit-box coverage and ways of holding the game at a neutral.
Any kind of game-play or character that benefits greatly from maintaining a neutral game in a
unbroken state, is going to do great. Things like interaction-control in neutral often involve having a way of breaking neutral in advantageous ways. Someone who can lock down a neutral and hold it, (NOT ignore neutral or break neutral or control neutral) simply
make neutral an uncomfortable thing to work around and keep the game at a neutral for as long as they want (Sonic/Wario fit this very well in other extremes) is why things are hard.
Pikachu dominates this.
If you can do it better, or in a way that makes Pikachu NOT want to play this game, then you win.
It's like how Marth dominates interaction-control.
If you can play to it in a way that makes it possible for you to break neutral, it's scary, and the only thing Marth can do is camp more. Play less of the game he wants to play. Then you can have an advantage grow from that.
Hold neutral against Pika, and see if you can get an advantage to grow from that. In the end-game, that's the only chance anyone will have.
Example: Peach
She's not trying to break neutral, but her advantageous position IN neutral is essentially just a close-ish-proximity neutral-game that's exactly where you don't want her to be.
A Peach moving around you makes you want to move away or attempt breaking neutral and forces you to work around her. This why trades happen so easily if the attempt doesn't work, or platform camping is resorted to if breaking it isn't favorable.
A Peach is fought during a process of her maneuvering through attacks and zones on her way to you. Pika can't deal with this very well.
Falco/Mario/other characters that choke you down with hard hit-boxes are going to do the same in a more lock-down way.
+ The rest of what some of you all stated. So yay, moving on.
2) Basically everyone got it to some extent, but it's a little more specific than a general speed+range thing. To be very simple about it, it has a lot to do with that fly-by-aerial thing Infinity described more than most of the rest of it.
Simple form: The threat of Aerials that can convert into detrimental positions if Luigi trades with them.
Marth may have great interaction-control and force the need to break neutral because he'll just chip away at you with D-Tilts and Jabs and Marth stuff if you don't. A lot of characters hate it, and most of that is why Marth is considered to be troublesome for a lot of characters.
Luigi doesn't care about this. None of this actually matters to him.
With that, Marth can make a F-Air wall as something WITHIN his DD game and make life miserable for some characters. This is more of his interaction control that comes with his speed+range.
Again Luigi doesn't care AT ALL about this.
What is of significance is that at any point, while Luigi and Marth dance around, everything Luigi does to break neutral will out-match anything Marth does. Marth can NOT control interactions between these characters at all.
There's a reason Sheik will needle/F-Air camp on platforms, Falco will resort to feinted N-Airs/D-Airs in his laser game, and Fox has to play a N-Air/B-Air/U-Air heavy game INSTEAD OF dash-dance Grab or laser camping like he can when controlling other characters.
The threat comes with the way that if Luigi breaks neutral and is clipped by an aerial that can convert into something, then it can be a stock against him. Simple as that. It's not the punish game that matters in the sense that he gets clobbered harder than he clobbers others (otherwise we'd be discussing how Sheik can't handle spaceswords), but it's how there is a THREAT to Luigi at all times that prevents him from going beast-mode permanently.
Not range. Not speed.
Aerials and things that can trade with him favorably, specifically out of defensive positions like shields and counter approaches, or flying-by with a means of DIRECTLY engaging him to negate the threatening presence that he'll always out-match an opponent with.
The reason why Marth isn't as much of a threat as someone like, CF for example, is that CF can actually safely play aggressive with aerials that convert to stocks, even when trading. Against Marth, it's all on Luigi to mess up. Against Luigi, CF can actually decide how the game goes.
Suggestions for future counter-play and end-game.
subtitled- how to not get rocked the way the melee-gods all did when you play scrubs like me who actually know wtf is going on in weird match-ups when played in anti-meta ways with pivots and weird crap.
If you're playing like a defensive fortress and not trying to challenge or evade Pikachu, but just not fall for anything and not try to play a bait and punish game, but just let Pikachu sit in neutral, then you'll do well in the match-up. You can see this falter when a Fox tries to play aggressively or camp someone like Axe, and you'll see it work well when a Falco or Peach holds a strong counter-approach game almost exclusively in the match-up and doesn't do much else, forcing Pika to calm down with purpose. Pikachu can still deal with this (I'd link my old discussion with Anther about dealing with Mario/Falco/Marth/etc again but you can just search it if you like), but a completely stalling of the neutral game and NON-COMMITTING game-plan will be what holds Pikachu down. People seem to get beat too frequently by these 2 (and a few other) good Pika players due to trying to engage in micro-spacing and micro-interactions. If you let these last, Pika takes control and dictates the match, and that's why Pikas win today. When you start seeing people getting Pika to play this game while in a neutral dance without anyone ever getting hit, rather than scuffles and trades, that's when the meta-game will start to show how good this character is, and how he'll ACTUALLY be dealt with at a top level. There are glimpses, but the meta is very young.
If you're playing over-extending and over-evading game against Luigi, aiming for trades (contrary to popular belief it seems) and being very diverse in your aggression and evasion, then you'll do well against Luigi. You may have seen hints of this over/under-extending in the adapting counter-play that Prof's Snake eventually started applying against otek, or how it lacked in some matches where Dong got to freely Hail-Mary his stuff without a leash. I'm not sure when we'll see it again, but even in Melee it was the tentative camping and attempt at pace-controlling that Melee-god Marths had that has allowed my Luigi to play my game and beat them. With a switch in game-plan to the EXTREME opposite, this is why Darkrain has had his way with Ka Master in the past. Take note of that type of game with other characters and play to that, or you'll get hit with quirky Up-B's and Down-B's from a mile away and see more average non-BnB Luigi play make marks on the meta-game again. There are glimpses (Luigi can play to this and abuse over/under-extending too, but it's this establishment of constant counter-presence that Luigi players fail to see today and often lose to, you can watch any of them for this pretty clearly if you like) The convergence of everything that Luigi's do in terms of wide-spread game-play is further off than any other character in PM to-date.
Those are kind of big paragraphs...
tl;dr
Understand exactly why/how/what YOU ALREADY FEEL/KNOW/'GET' about match-ups, and this stuff starts to make a lot more sense.
The Meta-Game of Spaceswords is very different than disjoints and dash-dances.
The meta-game of forcing approaches and out-spacing people is very surface-level.
The meta-game of threats of conversion and establishment of presence is closer to it.
Keep going and see where it leads.
When you start to look at what is ACTUALLY is taking place, then it'll all start to be very clear.
Very rarely, if ever, is this stuff ever discussed in a way that makes it seem like people know what they're talking about around here.
So I find myself viewing everyone as if they simply don't understand what they already know.
Turns out this has been true every time I've gotten a hint of it.
Luigi doesn't lose to swords.
Pika doesn't lose to DDs.
Don't think these characters are good, or that I'm saying they're good.
Think about what these characters struggle with, what is REALLY going on.
That is all I ask.
It's very different than anyone around here (but a very select few) likely believe at the moment, and that's why the perspective of an individual can change so much, so quickly, without them being aware of the change.
Change your point of view...
From 'perceiving what you believe about the game now as opposed to then'
To 'perceiving what changed your belief from what it was then to what it is now'
Hint: It's not 'results' or 'new things you've seen'
It's rather a change in where your attention has been directed.
Those are simply catalysts for the latter. The change in attention can be a result of the former.
Ez Pz
Once you 'get' the Melee-Top-Tier and these Melee-To-PM people, then comes the fun.
Next characters.
I don't see any of this guy
fraudulence detected.
Wario wasn't in Melee.
I think I might be missing a joke in here though.
lol
Edit: Highlighting.
Additions and edits woop.
Editedit: Was just playing a bunch of Melee so it's where I'm drifting with this post. It might be a bit off-topic when it comes to PM, but the idea is the same.
When your attention is going to these 'ideas' about what makes characters good, what gives them trouble, etc, pay attention to the fact that your attention is going there. You may notice something... interesting when it comes to why/how/when/what is taking place there, and you might start seeing things very differently.
I'm pretty sure 100% of people would be surprised how knee-jerk type of reactionary habits they have regarding the mental attachments to their own perceptions really are.
Just sayiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin
Also, don't listen to me if you think I'm on some kind of something.
Likely, you'll interpret what I'm saying VERY off-base from what I'm meaning to express.
lol
My running theory is that doing thought exercises like this is a key part of getting good, especially when you're starved of the biggest factor where getting good is concerned (i.e. lots of practice against other good people). Sure, go ahead and do the "I'm bad, but" disclaimer--I do it all the time, it's an honesty thing and I think people are inclined to be more patient with you when you admit you aren't perfect--but don't devalue your input in so doing.
I think you're probably correct, actually.
Now if only I were as good as Nausicaa at posing questions that result in meaningful discussion.
More important than things resulting in meaningful discussion or being able to articulate it well...
Is that you can make sense of things for yourself on this layer.
The layer of 'how do I see what I see, why do I see things the way I do, what others ways can I see it' as an endless on-going eternally changing 'sense' you have with yourself.
Growing and stuff doesn't happen through words and discussions.
They're simply context to grow FROM.
You're in the mix of it as much as anyone with big-sentences and good-wording is.
We all have our parts, maybe in a month you'll be spamming gibberish like me, but you already have your own gibberish, and that will grow. One day, maybe for others to hear and read.
What's important, is that your own gibberish helps YOU.
A dog knows a lot of ****
It doesn't put it into words, it might not even have what we call 'knowledge' about what it knows.
But it knows a lot of important and interesting **** somehow.
Know what you know, and you're good to go.
Also, even if you're bad, you can still know your **** really good.
Don't worry about that so much. Input your **** if you want and see what happens. Maybe it'll help you be play as good as the **** you know that's good. lol
marth can fair luigi all the way across the stage and once luigi is offstage against marth he should be dead
Sounds like CF U-Airs
On everybody.
Such a yucky character.
Fun as heck somehow though.
bcuz Smash I guess.
To be honest, I'm surprised that this many of you actually indulged in this...trivia.
I'm here to have a meaningful discussion about different components of the game, not entertain a guessing game which would help explain how Nausicaa validates his opinions. This is the same as me saying something like, "Despite popular opinion, Mario actually beats Fox due to this one trick that no one has brought up in 915 pages. I know what it is. But I'm not going to tell you." If you're trying to prove a point, just say what you're trying to say.
If you want to talk about Luigi's match ups with Marth and Falcon, and why you think one is better/worse than the other, talk about it, don't write a riddle for everyone to solve.
Others kind of already addressed this, so I hope you get the point.
You missed it when I said it initially, but that was before this comment and others saying it again.
Do you understand what I'm talking about at least a bit? We started the discussion, but I'm not sure we're at all on the same page if you're still thinking about this kind of stuff as if it's priority.
On the other side of this, just an fyi, all of that stuff has been thoroughly discussed a LOOOOOOOT. You don't need to search far to find a Bamesy-rant.