Tier List Speculation

[Ripple]

DDD is bad tier. Terrible approach options/neutral in general, super slow, and a subpar punish game. Good recovery and good edge guarding is about all he has going for him...

how can the ability to ignore nearly every other characters neutral options be considered a terrible neutral?

yes, DDD shouldn't really be able to get in, but no character can get in on DDD except for ZSS, Falco, and Ivy.
With the exception of these MUs, DDD is in almost complete control of when interactions occur. whether he wins those or not is a another story.

 

[Espi]

how can the ability to ignore nearly every other characters neutral options be considered a terrible neutral?

yes, DDD shouldn't really be able to get in, but no character can get in on DDD except for ZSS, Falco, and Ivy.
With the exception of these MUs, DDD is in almost complete control of when interactions occur. whether he wins those or not is a another story.

I'm not talking to anyone who says crap like this LOL

 

[Ripple]

are you trying to make me feel bad for telling people the truth very bluntly?

also, god damn, you had those ready to go just in case I posted because you apparently despise me enough to not even respond to what I said, just a big ol' **** YOU. I should feel honored

 

[Chevy]

Dsmash is frame 16 meaning you can shield it on reaction

How many times do we have to go over the reaction metrics?

 

[Espi]

Yeah I had those saved for a long time haha. But seriously, calling someone a fraud for having a certain style which works confuses me... How could odds have played above everyone else if he lost? Clearly Big D's playstyle was smart if it got him to game 5 bracket reset vs Chillindude. Back to the topic at hand, I don't think DDD controls any interactions vs a character like Falcon. His sheer speed and how safe his aerials are dictate the MU. DDD simply isn't fast enough to punish anything. Sure, he has an amazing shield grab, but if the Falcon is good he won't mess up.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Yeah I had those saved for a long time haha. But seriously, calling someone a fraud for having a certain style which works confuses me... How could odds have played above everyone else if he lost? Clearly Big D's playstyle was smart if it got him to game 5 bracket reset vs Chillindude. Back to the topic at hand, I don't think DDD controls any interactions vs a character like Falcon. His sheer speed and how safe his aerials are dictate the MU. DDD simply isn't fast enough to punish anything. Sure, he has an amazing shield grab, but if the Falcon is good he won't mess up.

Well I mean, 3.5 Bowser was horrible against Wolf and DDD and even worse against ICs and Odds only lost to people playing those characters while winning other ridiculously bad matchups against strong players like Hubby Headcrab. Not to mention the level to which Odds developed Bowser's gameplay in 3.5 with perfect wave lands in stuff was ridiculous. Odds single handedly developed Bowser more in 3.5 than all the Wolf and Diddy Mains together developed their characters.

 

[Player -0]

View attachment 70095
How many times do we have to go over the reaction metrics?

To be honest I think it's completely reactable (played a set vs. ESAM last Saturday). As long as you're used to the match up and don't have normal character instincts to spotdodge when you sense a grab you should be fine.

Edit - Also shield is a static thing you can hold, don't need to be as precise.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Espi I'm not sure why you're so determined to trash on me after our only interaction being your sabotaging my tournament performance by refusing to turn up for teams with no warning, but whatever. Keep being terrible, I guess.

@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP Squirtle isn't top tier because though his movement options are fast, they're also much higher commitment than they appear - while his movement stuff is fancy and slick, it's almost strictly worse than just having a solid DD game.

@ TheoryofSmaug Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure that Bowser was actually that terrible against D3 in 3.5. I'd call that MU maybe just shy of even in retrospect.

 

[Soft Serve]

I mean, ripple isn't wrong lol. He's blunt and comes off like he has a huge head sometimes, but he's the best DDD by a good margin. I play with Heysuess on a weekly basis, and he's amazing, but literally just watch a ripple set, like the more recent ones vs Kels. His control over neutral, how crisp his conversions are, and his general decision makings are all top notch.



Instead of just posting another tier list or vague opinions about fox/squirtle/reaction times, I'm going to try to be productive. grouping characters in a rough list of how well they are equip to deal with every situation the cast can throw at them.

Can deal with (nearly) Every situation, has strong tools for most if not all interactions with other characters:

Have good tools to deal with most situations, and have the ability to use their good tools to prevent the situations they can't cover well at most times:

Lose to some common counter-play/situations, like platform camping, getting opened up by pressure/rush down, or specific interactions that only pertain to that character's MUs (Olimar's pikmin flying around/dropping from lasers, etc), but still have the good tools to avoid those situations against some characters/un-optimal execution of them or mitigate their damage from being in them (or winning the situations they do win very hard):

Lose to simple strategies and game plans, normally related to proper CC/SDI, or just committed camping, despite controlling the situations they do win very well:



slight inaccuracies within these groupings aside, It seems to follow the trend that characters that are faster, with better movement, and less commitment on projectiles or pokes are more equip to deal with every situation in the game. Its not a tier list, but It just kinda boggles me that we can have characters like diddy, fox, wolf, m2, characters with options for any situation; in the same game as ness or kirby or DK, who win very small subsets of interactions, and their tools and flexibility overall are very cut and dry.

Odds single handedly developed Bowser more in 3.5 than all the Wolf and Diddy Mains together developed their characters.

I was with you till this ridiculous hyperbole lol. Wolf/diddy are incredibly developed tech wise, just don't have a lot of good players driving the application of the tools (june as the exception obviously, although neon is getting there and rapidly improving every week, he took a set off axe last night)

 

[Espi]

@ Espi I'm not sure why you're so determined to trash on me after our only interaction being your sabotaging my tournament performance by refusing to turn up for teams with no warning, but whatever. Keep being terrible, I guess.

@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP Squirtle isn't top tier because though his movement options are fast, they're also much higher commitment than they appear - while his movement stuff is fancy and slick, it's almost strictly worse than just having a solid DD game.

@ TheoryofSmaug Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure that Bowser was actually that terrible against D3 in 3.5. I'd call that MU maybe just shy of even in retrospect.

I'm not trying to trash on you, I think you're a super good player. But Ripple was implying that you played above everyone else which in my understanding means beating everyone. I was sure that I sent you a message on FB with reasons as to why I couldn't show up. Also made sure by sending a few messages to other people so they could tell you.

 

[Nausicaa]

Also, it honestly seems like nausicaa doesn't actually know that much and just covers it up with a pseudo crazy-intellectual tone of posting and excessive vagueness

Used to get that a lot until people learned to comprehend what they read a little better.
You'd probably be surprised how far the forum community has come regarding the stuff if you're just catching that this year.
Knowing things has less to do with knowledge than you know.

Here's some juicy stuff that might help you find the bridge between our worlds.
Krishnamurti on Knowledge and the Transformation of Man
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishn...nd-the-transformation-of-man-part-1-of-18.php

Alan Watts and Out of Your Mind
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bwj_FVRB63ajcUJGVnpTeU9XU3c&ddrp=1

Vipassana Meditation and the transition from Mind to Experience
https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index


Just some random nudges.

Maybe that'll make sense of things for you. If you're still on this page of confused by what I post, it might be worth a look.



Edit: Leffen reactions bottom tier

Samus can never grab anyone ever

Let alone hit puff

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I mean, ripple isn't wrong lol. He's blunt and comes off like he has a huge head sometimes, but he's the best DDD by a good margin. I play with Heysuess on a weekly basis, and he's amazing, but literally just watch a ripple set, like the more recent ones vs Kels. His control over neutral, how crisp his conversions are, and his general decision makings are all top notch.



Instead of just posting another tier list or vague opinions about fox/squirtle/reaction times, I'm going to try to be productive. grouping characters in a rough list of how well they are equip to deal with every situation the cast can throw at them.

Can deal with (nearly) Every situation, has strong tools for most if not all interactions with other characters:

Have good tools to deal with most situations, and have the ability to use their good tools to prevent the situations they can't cover well at most times:

Lose to some common counter-play/situations, like platform camping, getting opened up by pressure/rush down, or specific interactions that only pertain to that character's MUs (Olimar's pikmin flying around/dropping from lasers, etc), but still have the good tools to avoid those situations against some characters/un-optimal execution of them or mitigate their damage from being in them (or winning the situations they do win very hard):

Lose to simple strategies and game plans, normally related to proper CC/SDI, or just committed camping, despite controlling the situations they do win very well:



slight inaccuracies within these groupings aside, It seems to follow the trend that characters that are faster, with better movement, and less commitment on projectiles or pokes are more equip to deal with every situation in the game. Its not a tier list, but It just kinda boggles me that we can have characters like diddy, fox, wolf, m2, characters with options for any situation; in the same game as ness or kirby or DK, who win very small subsets of interactions, and their tools and flexibility overall are very cut and dry.



I was with you till this ridiculous hyperbole lol. Wolf/diddy are incredibly developed tech wise, just don't have a lot of good players driving the application of the tools (june as the exception obviously, although neon is getting there and rapidly improving every week, he took a set off axe last night)

What I meant more accurately was that Odds imo came really close to optimized play of Bowser in 3.5, his theory was really good and so was his tech skill, his edgeguards were a little sloppy but overall he came closer to Bowser's limits than anyone else did with their character.

The even more impressive thing is that when he felt himself reaching that limit, he wrote a huge college level essay to the PMDT telling them how to fix it.

 

[Boiko]

Something I would like to discuss is the lack of utility in Ness' up smash. And I would love to branch this discussion out into other moves that don't seem to be particularly useful.

As it stands, Ness' up smash serves a very limited purpose. It can kill floaty characters off of the top at approximately 150%+ with average DI. I referenced my own spreadsheet a decided to pull some comparative data.

I sorted all smash attacks by trajectory. I tried to keep all attacks within the same realm of Ness' up smash(85/82 degrees), so I sorted by anything between 80-110 degrees.
These were the results:

Spoiler

And then I did the same thing for aerials:

Spoiler

And this doesn't even include moves likes Fox's up tilt, which combos earlier and is far less committal and is a lot stronger later, or Zelda's utilt, or G&W's dtilt, or Snake's C4, or even a lot of somewhat strong moves that I missed like Luigi's dsmash.

I'm trying to understand what purpose this move serves besides "emergency kill". It's too slow to be used as a get off me OoS option, too weak to kill considering the commitment (plus dtilt>uair is just better), too slow to combo with, and it's dumb edge guarding gimmick was removed.

My suggestion would be to make the swing get stronger as it charges, (for those who don't know, the swing will always do 12%, regardless of charge) that way the opponent has to actively SDI out if they're hit by the wind up. Plus, it wouldn't become just a strong kill move because you would have to commit to a charge to get it to kill below 150%. Edit: Although, I don't believe it's possible to increase the damage of the charge hit, as the yo-yo is an article.

Just some thoughts.

Mostly just venting..

 

[Electric Tuba]

But Ripple was implying that you played above everyone else which in my understanding means beating everyone.

That's where low tier characters/bad matchups come in. Sometimes you lose even if you play better than your opponent, which is why we strive for balance

 

[Player -0]

Yoyo is a situational tool that does its job interestingly. Even if it were "fixed I don't think it would really help Ness or add to his game plan."

You know what would help his game plan? Faster DJ (and maybe faster dash/run/bigger grab range but that's to the side more).

wink wink.

 

[PlateProp]

View attachment 70095
How many times do we have to go over the reaction metrics?

I forget that all of you are mere mortals

 

[Soft Serve]

I forget that all of you are mere mortals

plate could you just show us results of your reaction time so you dont look like a huge **** face all the time

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Pretty sure Squirtle players have to be able to slow down time in order to do such precise inputs and be able to tell wtf their character is actually doing and jerk off at the same time, so reaction times probably don't matter to them much.

 

[Life]

Pretty sure Squirtle players have to be able to slow down time in order to do such precise inputs and be able to tell wtf their character is actually doing and jerk off at the same time, so reaction times probably don't matter to them much.

We just haven't figured out the time loop part yet so we can keep trying at the same tournament until we win it. Rumor is that a solid quarter of the entrants at LTC3 were just Plate in various disguises.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

plate could you just show us results of your reaction time so you dont look like a huge **** face all the time

plate please do the milia blocker and screenshot your results

 

[Soft Serve]

We just haven't figured out the time loop part yet so we can keep trying at the same tournament until we win it. Rumor is that a solid quarter of the entrants at LTC3 were just Plate in various disguises.

is that why only one of them made it out of pools? heyyyoooo

Something I would like to discuss is the lack of utility in Ness' up smash. And I would love to branch this discussion out into other moves that don't seem to be particularly useful.

As it stands, Ness' up smash serves a very limited purpose. It can kill floaty characters off of the top at approximately 150%+ with average DI. I referenced my own spreadsheet a decided to pull some comparative data.

I sorted all smash attacks by trajectory. I tried to keep all attacks within the same realm of Ness' up smash(85/82 degrees), so I sorted by anything between 80-110 degrees.
These were the results:

Spoiler

And then I did the same thing for aerials:

Spoiler

And this doesn't even include moves likes Fox's up tilt, which combos earlier and is far less committal and is a lot stronger later, or Zelda's utilt, or G&W's dtilt, or Snake's C4, or even a lot of somewhat strong moves that I missed like Luigi's dsmash.

I'm trying to understand what purpose this move serves besides "emergency kill". It's too slow to be used as a get off me OoS option, too weak to kill considering the commitment (plus dtilt>uair is just better), too slow to combo with, and it's dumb edge guarding gimmick was removed.

My suggestion would be to make the swing get stronger as it charges, (for those who don't know, the swing will always do 12%, regardless of charge) that way the opponent has to actively SDI out if they're hit by the wind up. Plus, it wouldn't become just a strong kill move because you would have to commit to a charge to get it to kill below 150%. Edit: Although, I don't believe it's possible to increase the damage of the charge hit, as the yo-yo is an article.

Just some thoughts.

Mostly just venting..

its not even his best hard read anti-air, because just a simple sh fair in place/fading back is much safer to stuff approaches. Is it a good anti-air to peach FC fairs at you?

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

We just haven't figured out the time loop part yet so we can keep trying at the same tournament until we win it. Rumor is that a solid quarter of the entrants at LTC3 were just Plate in various disguises.

It seems easy compared to discovering Reverse Hydro-Pivot RAR DACUS canceled taunt

 

[DrinkingFood]

does anybody know where that frame data is for trips was awhile ago
because I seem to remember the tech window not being until frame 20 of the trip. meaning getting tripped is at minimum like a 46 frame lag, but I can't seem to find the numbers anywhere so idk for sure

 

[InfinityCollision]

Your numbers are correct. 60 frames if you opt for a tech roll.

 

[FreeGamer]

What about giving Ness his U-Smash from Smash 4? The initial hits that cover his body make it a solid GTFO move.

 

[Shadic]

Quick remember that this isn't the Social Thread.

Thanks guys. <3

 

[Ripple]

Quick remember that this isn't the Social Thread.

Thanks guys. <3

did you really give a warning to magikarp of all people when the milia blocker is directly related to arguments based on reaction time and decision making in that time frame?

telling someone to post results from that would be no different than calling out someone for reacting to the start up of squirtle d-smash consistently

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Testing in game I am getting 19 required frames prior to the tech. This is squirtle bubble, just the last hit on a dk in debug. 4 frames of hitlag, 5 frames of invincibility, 14 frames of vulnerability, then the tech. This is all the quickest possible action. I am able to still take 36 or so frames after hitlag ends, so there is some variance on when they start their tech option.

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah considering the fastest possible option is for tech in place, I don't see why you couldn't space the RAR bubble to land and punish a tech in place then handle the other options as they come. Especially since squirtle has such good drifting ability. Unless SH bubble has more than 40 frames endlag (I doubt it), you should be able to punish tech in place or missed tech, as well as tech towards, and with your other options you should at the very worst get a strong stagger/pressure situation on them if they tech away (will probably have time to put up shield/spot dodge/etc). This sounds like that case from what I remember last time I played a squirtle that used the RAR bubble a lot but that was awhile ago
Like even if they tech away, and you cover the other options, you did damage and took the entire stage away from them, while being a character that thrives on having room to move
sorry squirtle mains, I know it hurts for someone to think your character has good things
that are also simultaneously annoying as ****

 

[Nausicaa]

We just haven't figured out the time loop part yet so we can keep trying at the same tournament until we win it. Rumor is that a solid quarter of the entrants at LTC3 were just Plate in various disguises.

LOL so good

Squirtle can't have a D-Smash that combos any more than Ness can have an U-Smash that combos.
Kills only plx

On a related note.

Ness can Ledge-Dash in PM.
First game where Ness can get back on the edge in a cool, option-filled way, so that's pretty sweet.

Bowser can spot-dodge.

DID YOU EXPECT THIS IN 2001!?!?!?
BOWSER CAN DODGE

OP

2nd worst in the game maybe now.
Such upgrade.
His D-Smash comes out fast too.
Maybe even 3rd worst.
MAAAAYBE

 

[robosteven]

What about giving Ness his U-Smash from Smash 4? The initial hits that cover his body make it a solid GTFO move.

What about giving Ness his U-Smash and D-Smash from Smash 64?

inb4 2gud

 

[DMG]

did you really give a warning to magikarp of all people when the milia blocker is directly related to arguments based on reaction time and decision making in that time frame?

telling someone to post results from that would be no different than calling out someone for reacting to the start up of squirtle d-smash consistently

Ripple I found out the secret. Just make a post that the mods like. Here look:

able to tell wtf their character is actually doing and jerk off at the same time

Likes on this post: Shadic, Bazkip, Saproling, and 1 other person

Shadic gives jerking off the green light!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Top tier shit posting imo DMG

 

[Saproling]

Ripple I found out the secret. Just make a post that the mods like. Here look:



Likes on this post: Shadic, Bazkip, Saproling, and 1 other person

Shadic gives jerking off the green light!

Im only here for the **** show and to passive aggressively like comments please leave me out of this k thanks.

 

[DMG]

Im only here for the **** show and to passive aggressively like comments please leave me out of this k thanks.

Ur not the one with a red name and responsibilities, you can like whatever you want mayne! You're not on trial unless your tier list sucks. (People hardly post tier lists in here anymore so I guess this applies to no one anyways)

How can we make big chars more fun? I hardly see or hear about any Zards for example. Do big characters need or deserve some paradigm design shift that changes the scope of Smash? Or is big not "fixable"

 

[TheGravyTrain]

It looks like you get at best 23 frames of endlag (if used on the first airborne frame) and around 28 if used around the 5th airborne frame. I'll double check later. The only issue in seeing is the difference between spacing for safety on shield vs spacing for the ability to get maximum punishes. I dont know how much varying tech timings matter, but that also could throw a wrench in maximizing bubble effectiveness. Reaction tech chases are the future of Squirtle. Since this auto tech chases, if you can tech chase on reaction bubble would lead into guaranteed up smashes, down throws, and aqua jets.

 

[DMG]

Biggest wrench is if person is airborne you don't get gucci tech chase. New meta: jump into Squirtle?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ur not the one with a red name and responsibilities, you can like whatever you want mayne! You're not on trial unless your tier list sucks. (People hardly post tier lists in here anymore so I guess this applies to no one anyways)

How can we make big chars more fun? I hardly see or hear about any Zards for example. Do big characters need or deserve some paradigm design shift that changes the scope of Smash? Or is big not "fixable"

big is fixable, it just needs to be recognized that at the cost of strictly slower movement, your normals should all be strictly better.
Got a move with the same speed, same power as a quick character? That **** should reach way farther/have better coverage.
Got a move with the same power and same reach and a quick character? Needs to be much faster.
Got a move with the same reach/coverage and speed as a quick character? Needs to be strong as ****.

Like a lot of the slow characters already see this kind of general trend, but not on all their moves and not quite extreme enough. Generally they just see more power and/or reach but at the cost of the move's general speed, which defeats the whole point. These characters need something with reach that's safe on shield, on hit, on CC, everything, forcing the only correct response to be moving out of the way. The point is not so these characters just win every time they go in, it's so they can actually force the opponent to play the normal guessing game of "when will I go in?" everybody else has to play such that they can take space from the opponent if they choose not to play the guessing game. But as it is, Ganon/bowser's dash attacks still lose to shield, and those are their only long reaching tools. They can't really threaten space without going into the air and trying to force a mix-up that punishes them harder if the opponent guesses right then the punish they get on the opponent if they guess wrong. Like ganon can go into the air and float forward towards the opponent peach style and ask them "either give up space or risk taking the fair". But if the opponent takes the risk and guesses right, they hit an aerial ganon, and an aerial ganon in a combo is a dead ganon. If they guess wrong and eat the fair, they lose stage space and might be in a tech chase situation/knocked to the edge, if they're low/low-mid percents. They can try and whiff punish the fair, and ganon eats a hard punish. If they try to wait for a whiff punish and ganon does an empty landing instead to claim that stage space, that's all he gains. So the mix-up is, for ganon: take stage space or get a tech chase, if you guess right; maybe a pressure situation if they shield the fair. The mix-up for the opponent is: huge punish, or huge punish, if you guess right; maybe a pressure situation if they get up shield on the empty landing. This isn't really something that's in ganon's favor much until high percents. Bowser has the same issue but his is a little more complex since he can punish shields harder, while lacking a float, and has the option to try to beat direct attempts on his aerial vulnerability with nair. They need good grounded options in some form to deal with fast opponents or they're always gonna suffer due to aerial vulnerability. Bowser could get his second hit back on dash attack, that would be a start. Make it like -4/5 on shield, so if he needs to he can spotdodge/up-b to beat grab attempts OoS, rework some other stuff about it to make it a reasonable move overall but with more utility, maybe that would be all he needs to be a totally workable character. Sounds crazy, but the disparity between strong characters and slow ones on the ground in PM is crazy too.

 

[dirtboy345]

yeah considering the fastest possible option is for tech in place, I don't see why you couldn't space the RAR bubble to land and punish a tech in place then handle the other options as they come. Especially since squirtle has such good drifting ability. Unless SH bubble has more than 40 frames endlag (I doubt it), you should be able to punish tech in place or missed tech, as well as tech towards, and with your other options you should at the very worst get a strong stagger/pressure situation on them if they tech away (will probably have time to put up shield/spot dodge/etc). This sounds like that case from what I remember last time I played a squirtle that used the RAR bubble a lot but that was awhile ago
Like even if they tech away, and you cover the other options, you did damage and took the entire stage away from them, while being a character that thrives on having room to move
sorry squirtle mains, I know it hurts for someone to think your character has good things
that are also simultaneously annoying as ****

If you know aerial bubble is going to land you can get something off of it for sure yeah great, it's extremely punishable if missed though and can't really be thrown out safely. Also really just as much Squirtle players says he has amazing **** as there are that say he's bad

 

[InfinityCollision]

Gotta admit Bowser's a lot more fun in 3.6f, even if he's still bad.

I think Smash's fatties just suffer from being both bland and bad, as a rule. Ganondorf and Bowser have gotten notable upgrades in the style department. D3's interesting as an anti-meta character with a radically different playstyle, though I doubt a little extra flair would hurt him. DK and Zard don't really have a lot going for them in this department, though I think Zard partially suffers from just feeling clunky. More strong tools combined with more interesting tools and bam, you've got badass fatties.

Maybe have Bowser Bomb's outermost (4% damage) hitboxes force trip grounded opponents, with ~20 frames landing lag removed. Perhaps even give those hitboxes a tiny bit of extra reach. Not because it does anything for his matchups, just because the idea of the shockwave from it knocking the opponent down is ****ing cool. DK could possibly do a similar thing via an alternate down-b (tap vs hold)?

The opponent should **** their pants when a fatty's bearing down on their space. Not just because they're a legitimate threat, but because they project that threatening presence at all times.

Bad's rectified with proper reward and frame data on their normals and means to keep hard camping strats off the table as much as possible. Ganondorf on a large stage for example is just depressing, and a lot of fatty normals have too much startup and/or too little reward.