Tier List Speculation

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'd drop Ike and Lucario down and bump up MK. IC's and Jiggs deserve B tier at least.

 

[Warzenschwein]

Light shielding would be really awesome though. It'd be a truly essential factor in some matchups. Just today I had a matchup discussion and light shielding would've changed a lot, lol. That's the kind of extra depth I like.

On a different note, was there ever a really good idea on how to change L-Canceling into a mechanic with more depth? Not that I want something like that, that'd be way too much of a change. Something to consider for a completely new Smash game. But still.

EDIT: And keep giving feedback, I want to farm smashboards-likes using a tier list everyone agrees on.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Also if y'all do anything to nerf R.o.B's fair carry into B-Reversed Boost bair, I will ****ing kill you.

correction: "b turnaround" or "turnaround B"

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

On a different note, was there ever a really good idea on how to change L-Canceling into a mechanic with more depth? Not that I want something like that, that'd be way too much of a change. Something to consider for a completely new Smash game. But still.

Stop it, right there.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, I saw an idea a while back involving L-Cancelling stalling shield recharge/knocking your shield size down a bit each time. Trading defense for offense. I loved it.

Of course, you don't need to go that far, you can just let L-Cancelling **** WITH PEOPLE'S TECH WINDOWS so that if they get hit out of an attempted aerial they miss the tech window. As of right now, light-pressing to L-Cancel means you can do it without screwing your tech window.

 

[Binary Clone]

I'd drop Ike and Lucario down and bump up MK. IC's and Jiggs deserve B tier at least.

I agree about Ike. IC's haven't seen much big play in this patch (now that they're fixed) as far as I know, so it's hard to form an opinion on them. I think Jiggs should be higher as well. People still have a residual idea from previous patches that Jiggs is terrible compared to the rest of the cast. I think the truth is that we don't have any good Jiggs players in the PM scene, and she's very underrepresented. It definitely hurts her that there are so many more viable floaties, but she's still pretty strong, I think, especially with the Fox MU being less difficult and stuff like that.

Light shielding would be really awesome though. It'd be a truly essential factor in some matchups. Just today I had a matchup discussion and light shielding would've changed a lot, lol. That's the kind of extra depth I like.

On a different note, was there ever a really good idea on how to change L-Canceling into a mechanic with more depth? Not that I want something like that, that'd be way too much of a change. Something to consider for a completely new Smash game. But still.

Light shielding is definitely very important. Even simple stuff like Marth Killer is much, much harder in PM because you have to shield DI instead of just light shield. It'd be a nice tool to have.

I'd shy away from the L-cancel discussion here, though. People are very sensitive about it, and it doesn't have much to do with balance/tier list stuff.

 

[Warzenschwein]

I'd shy away from the L-cancel discussion here, though. People are very sensitive about it, and it doesn't have much to do with balance/tier list stuff.

True. But I'm asking because... well... Tier List Speculation might be a toxic puddle of hate, malevolence and interminable anger at times but at least it has some semi-knowledgeable people who like to think about stuff.

I don't want to see what Reddit has to say LMAO

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Whoa whoa whoa why are we dropping Ike

Both of Ally's losses were really close and he still got top 8, and we still have a metric ton of things to develop with regards to his combo game. I remember one of Machiavelli's stocks being completely exploded by Ally, who was literally juggling Ivy back and forth across Smashville like playing ping-pong with himself. It was the exact sort of using QD to extend combos that Ike mains are only just started to dip their feet into, because we've been over-relying on his good initial dash velocity and nair so far [Thanks, DJ Nintendo.] If your reaction time is good, you can literally always get a follow-up out of a throw when you're close to ledge, just by tossing them offstage and using the correct QD -> Aerial combo. [Down and away has the greatest chance of us dying as we try to hit them, but they're probably dead from it too because it's bad survival DI if that fair does connect.] Swordfalcon is coming, people.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

No doubt Ike is strong, but I don't believe he's S-Tier strong.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

True. But I'm asking because... well... Tier List Speculation might be a toxic puddle of hate, malevolence and interminable anger at times but at least it has some semi-knowledgeable people who like to think about stuff.

I don't want to see what Reddit has to say LMAO

"ness is top tier look at stereokidd 3rd place at a local"
"rob is gay"

 

[Warzenschwein]

So basically I'd put Fox, Wolf, Lucario and R.O.B in S-Tier with MK being at the top of A tier since he lacks results so far.

I'm unsure about Roy, Marth, Sheik, Samus, Wario and Snake atmo tbh.

"ness is top tier look at stereokidd 3rd place at a local"
"rob is gay"

Just laugh at that single person thinking Ness is top tier and R.O.B IS kinda non-heterosexual tbh, can't argue with that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I personally don't see the problem with R.o.B but I just like cool **** I guess

By all means give him the Dedede treatment.

At least it won't hurt me as deeply as Dedede's nerfs did. #disjointbros

 

[Apollo Ali]

That's exactly what I'm implying, and have implied for months that his changes may have missed the mark almost entirely. What the heck is changing ROB's weight and float status going to accomplish, if his kit changes were:

+.1 SDI multiplier on Dsmash to be normalized

A 5 degree angle change on Dthrow (which was almost 90 degrees to begin with, think about it) that kinda let's people marginally escape from ROB guaranteed throw follow-ups sometimes with DI away... at some %'s... for some chars (hint: it helps but it's not a game changing angle or some Sheik throw mix up status)

Little baby changes on Nair dmg and late hit blah blah

3 frames on Ftilt IASA

Oh and Fthrow/Bthrow aren't wtf quick. 12 Frames instead of 5


Out of all that, his biggest change may have been his reflector (which I didn't include until now, because I can't find the words to describe what I think). I don't even know what to say about that one, but I appreciate that the attempt and good intention to change the move was there.


Unlike other things, which apparently 2 weight and some more FF took care of (this *significantly* changes his Laser, offstage edgeguards, boost mechanics, recovery, onstage gameplay, and many many more things)


I mean honestly, I'd probably be fine with it all if the other characters were getting significantly better, or had great tools of their own. Squirtle, Bowser, D3, Olimar, and some other mains don't have a life-time to wait and see where devs are going to take their characters, or what new buff-nerf trade off they are going to have to deal with this time before becoming better. I'd just tell them to pick up ROB or someone instead if this is how things are going to be: heck next Patch ROB's gonna get the significant change of moving back down 2 more weight and falling faster. Actually I take that back, his reflector may not reflect anymore or something similar at that point.

Squirtle may have hydro-planing removed, Usmash nerf, Dmash 1% buff, tail attack nerfs but balanced by doing better damage and better angles, etc. See where I'm going with this, it's like why bother with Squirtle-kun or someone else.

tbh i'd rather they take the conservative approach they did with ROB with squirt, bows, d3, yoshi than what they did to them.

i think the ROB changes were fine. didn't change his overall gameplan but made him slightly weaker.

that's the point i felt we were at with 3.5 and was done well for the top 20 and managed HORRIBLY for the mid and low tier.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm willing to admit I could be being a Foxhead about it. I recall people saying that R.o.B's main issue was not being able to force him into disadvantage easily enough, or not getting enough when R.o.B was forced into disadvantage. R.o.B's ways of gaining advantage don't seem particularly overwhelming to me, and we tried to address the former issue by upping his punishability. Someone explain what's wrong?

 

[DMG]

I don't think it's that healthy (especially with other character legit struggles or design hurdles), and it certainly goes against a lot of what was prior nerfed.

"Hey we don't like Pit going offstage and giving the GG so well, especially combined with that nice arrow"

"Hey we don't like the ambiguous landing situations MK had with old Dair"

"JK we're actually kind of cool with Rob being all of that together"

ok.jpg

Edit: ROB strong points underestimated cause he isn't Captain Falcon DD speed or something. Good play with ROB after initial opening tends to not lose positional advantage very easily (due to versatility), and opening ROB up to your own lethal combo isn't that easy. It's not like he's Bowser or some immobile brick of a character that just can't handle approaching chars ever.

Ganon weight and combo status is one thing, now let Ganon air dash to places (including away from juggles), give him projectiles including one going far offstage, and you'll see why maybe 2 weight + fall speed isn't that big of a disadvantage to be tacked on.

If people want to underestimate ROB's power, and overestimate the new combo-ability changes on beating him down, feel free I guess?

 

[Journal]

A lot of people like putting Sheik in the top 10 or 15 and I understood that before this version, but this patch I don't really see it. All of her stuff is easy to crouch cancel and her way of punishing that, a grab, doesn't have follow ups if the opponent knows that Sheik has no reason to go for throws that aren't down throw ninety percent of the time. If the opponent knows those two things, than she has to win the neutral like a dozen times more than other characters and depend a lot more on stray hits than she should.

Needles are still phenomenal and all, but in neutral when they basically will add damage or lead to a pointless grab, they aren't enough to make her a great character.

Imo a character should be fundamentally strong enough that just knowing the character doesn't invalidate half her game plan.

 

[DMG]

Sheik is still pretty stifling. Defensive Sheik tests how good of a character you actually are. Don't want to be a char with a bad tech roll onstage vs her (so even someone "good" like MK could succumb to her) or non stellar recovery / neutral / etc. I mean yeah if you're a character who's about average or better in most traits, she won't be as wtf cause there would be less flaws to pick on, but she's not turrible.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
B- Tier:
D Tier:

I didn't put Zelda, Yoshi, or Snake on this because I couldn't decide where to put them

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't think it's that healthy, and it certainly goes against a lot of what was prior nerfed.

"Hey we don't like Pit going offstage and giving the GG so well, especially combined with that nice arrow"

"Hey we don't like the ambiguous landing situations MK had with old Dair"

"JK we're actually kind of cool with Rob being all of that together"

ok.jpg

Edit: ROB strong points underestimated cause he isn't Captain Falcon DD speed or something. Good play with ROB after initial opening tends to not lose positional advantage very easily (due to versatility), and opening ROB up to your own lethal combo isn't that easy. Ganon weight and combo status is one thing, now let Ganon air dash to places (including away from juggles), give him projectiles, and you'll see why maybe 2 weight isn't that big of a disadvantage to be tacked on.

If people want to underestimate ROB's power, and overestimate the new combo-ability changes on beating him down, feel free I guess?

To be fair the Pit-offstage thing pisses me off royally. It was like "Yeah screw his super potent carry/edgeguard game, let's make him Jugglo number 4." You know who else can Uair juggle into a strong finisher? EVERY CHARACTER WITH A SWORD. Meta Knight even uses the same button sequence, with Uairs -> Up B. So does Marth sometimes. \endrant

Ehhh okay, any suggestions on what you actually want to do with R.o.B to actually hold advantage to satisfactory levels? Like I have a hard time taking his kit and seeing it any better than Falcon's, or something.

Also the next Dedede changelist should be a reversion of 3.6, fixing inhale and an apology note tbqh.

 

[The_NZA]

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
B- Tier:
D Tier:

I didn't put Zelda, Yoshi, or Snake on this because I couldn't decide where to put them

And you didn't put Ness because you don't love him. The answer is probably D tier.

I also think you underrated Wario (A tier), Falcon (A tier), Lucas (B tier). I also think Link is better than most people do. I'd put him solidly in B tier and probably drop ganon to B-.

 

[Sardonyx]

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
B- Tier:
D Tier:

I didn't put Zelda, Yoshi, or Snake on this because I couldn't decide where to put them

On this list I'd put Zelda in between Pika and DK, Yoshi I have no clue tbh, and snake in between pit and CF or Sheik

 

[Life]

I think Sheik is roughly #2 in the game. She strongly resembles PAL Sheik, who was already really good, and her worst matchups (spacies) aren't as strong as they were in Melee. I don't see any of the newcomers giving her more trouble than she can handle.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I also don't get the overrating of Sheik. She's not bad, but good golly she's not S-Tier...
The moment you understand her game plan she's not scary anymore.

 

[FreeGamer]

Here is a tier list of character designs I slapped together, with no order within groups... feel free to start a ****storm, agree with it, poop on it, or w/e

Why won't you nerf me where it matters?:


Has some stupid **** that needs to go:


Beautiful as you are:


Needs more stupid **** to be good/viable/interesting:


Why won't you buff/re-tool me where it matters?:

 

[NWRL]

To be honest, outside of Fox, Wolf, and possibly ROB, I don't think we should be nerfing characters anymore than we have already. Everyone in the top 15 seem very healthy to fight against. We should just focus on giving the characters on the lower end of the spectrum some light buffs or design changes to deal with their major flaws.

Has some stupid **** that needs to go:

Explain your reasoning for these, all of the characters here are pretty easy to understand and have healthy strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Journal]

I think Sheik is roughly #2 in the game. She strongly resembles PAL Sheik, who was already really good, and her worst matchups (spacies) aren't as strong as they were in Melee. I don't see any of the newcomers giving her more trouble than she can handle.

A lot of people like putting Sheik in the top 10 or 15 and I understood that before this version, but this patch I don't really see it. All of her stuff is easy to crouch cancel and her way of punishing that, a grab, doesn't have follow ups if the opponent knows that Sheik has no reason to go for throws that aren't down throw ninety percent of the time. If the opponent knows those two things, than she has to win the neutral like a dozen times more than other characters and depend a lot more on stray hits than she should.

Needles are still phenomenal and all, but in neutral when they basically will add damage or lead to a pointless grab, they aren't enough to make her a great character.

There's actually no way she's #2 or close to that.

 

[The Baron]

Here is a tier list of character designs I slapped together, with no order within groups... feel free to start a ****storm, agree with it, poop on it, or w/e

Why won't you nerf me where it matters?:

Honest question and I really want opinions here but where does wolf need nerfing at besides maybe shield pressure? His aproach options asides from running shine are easily stuffed since they lack priority or appreciable disjoint (Trying to cover them with laser doesn't really work against anyone who has a sex kick) which forces him him into a captain falcon-esque bait and punish game which I feel is fine and he should be good at.

His punish game is great which I think is good for a character who relies on winning neutral and can't just brute force it and I don't think that needs toning down. If you took away laser and let him keep his dash dance and CC ability, I think he'd still be a good to great character just by those 2 virtues alone. I personally don't feel like he is extremely dominating any meta's (except for maybe AZ's) right now and every melee player I talk too finds fighting him much easier than the other two spacies but not many wolves, not even talking about good wolves, exist so that may just be bias. Just my two cents but if people think he needs nerfing, go for it.

 

[DMG]

To be fair the Pit-offstage thing pisses me off royally. It was like "Yeah screw his super potent carry/edgeguard game, let's make him Jugglo number 4." You know who else can Uair juggle into a strong finisher? EVERY CHARACTER WITH A SWORD. Meta Knight even uses the same button sequence, with Uairs -> Up B. So does Marth sometimes. \endrant

Ehhh okay, any suggestions on what you actually want to do with R.o.B to actually hold advantage to satisfactory levels? Like I have a hard time taking his kit and seeing it any better than Falcon's, or something.

Also the next Dedede changelist should be a reversion of 3.6, fixing inhale and an apology note tbqh.

I dunno what to do with ROB, because many different areas of play (how you recover, how you approach, how you edgeguard/juggle) are almost all at least partially tied to his boosts. If you made his boosts really laggy on startup, in direct response to his edgeguarding for example, you hurt his recovery and approaching. One core design problem is that Upb and Side B (Side B in particular) are involved in way too many areas of his gameplay. Upb not as much


It may be easier and fairer to completely redesign the boost idea for Side B (or noticeably change the mechanics for operating during/after Side B): how can you craft fair usage of a move for both parties (against literally 40+ chars) when it's intended and capable of being used in like 3-4 different but absolutely fundamental areas of Smash? That's practically an impossible task, and it clearly has been showing signs of that for awhile now. You won't have a well designed ROB IMO until Side B is not simultaneously:

1. Recovery
2. Combo Escaper / Juggle Escaper / Landing Assister
3. Approach Tool
3.1 Juggle / Platform Trapping Assister (Side B Uair under platforms or Side B to reposition underneath opponent during Juggle, kind of falls under approach catagory but a bit different)
4. Edgeguard Tool


Better design would likely stem from changing how ROB's Side B currently has a hand in the Proverbial Cookie Jar. Maybe you can bypass changing the move by making his other moves sucky (Fair no range, Nair no kill power, etc) but all that will do is pidgeon-hole players into even further going down the "mobile-ROB" route if he can't function well as a stand-alone character without the boosting. If Fair sucks and *needs* boosting to effectively be good, you're just telling the player to only use Fair in boosting ways etc.


Making moves noticeably worse, to balance out the incredible mobility or versatility of a character, usually is not a great path or enjoyable for the character's players. I'd like to avoid that, but I see no genuine alternative if his boosts will not get changed or get baby changes. Mewtwo changes were not aimed at making his moves total suckage and leaving the "zip-zap-bloop-bloop" all the same for example. Something similar for ROB, where maybe he can still boost, but how he acts AFTER/DURING boosting are way different and much more limited would work. Otherwise, hail ROB as ur new overlord

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Needs more stupid **** to be good/viable/interesting:

Pikachu, squirtle, and Link are plenty viable and interesting enough for them to be moved to "beautiful as you are" tier. Squirtle out of all those does not need any more "good" things than he already has.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

And you didn't put Ness because you don't love him. The answer is probably D tier.

I also think you underrated Wario (A tier), Falcon (A tier), Lucas (B tier). I also think Link is better than most people do. I'd put him solidly in B tier and probably drop ganon to B-.

Ness was supposed to be in B-, right behind lucas.

I wrote this early in the morning so it has a bunch of errors. I'd probably add all the changes you listed

 

[Oracle]

@DrinkingFood look what you did. Even dmg is salty!

 

[CORY]

Here is a tier list of character designs I slapped together, with no order within groups... feel free to start a ****storm, agree with it, poop on it, or w/e

Why won't you nerf me where it matters?:


Has some stupid **** that needs to go:


Beautiful as you are:


Needs more stupid **** to be good/viable/interesting:


Why won't you buff/re-tool me where it matters?:

Tbh, ganon isn't in a bad spot. With float, he has a tool to allow you to play much less commitally in neutral, while also being expanding your recovery and punish options further. He has a set of (mostly) really good aerials to supplement that utility. He deals damage really fast, but has ha tricky time getting started.

Even his ground kit is good. His f and dtilt are good for taking up space and pushing people around, utilt and dsmash s have good power and damage )mostly). 3 frame jab as a get off me button. Really, his grab is terrible as some sort of penance for his dthrow, which is the biggest change he needs, IMO.

He can stand to be cleaned up, hitbox wise, because some of that goofy disjoint is just a bit overboard into jankland, and cleaning it up with a few buffs around his moveset (bair have a lower angle, earlier iasa on float, a few frames safer ftilt) and he's on a good spot. He just needs to have it matter in the mrta that he's a strong punish character, probably by toning down **** faster characters can pull off on winning neutral.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I'd be OK with rob being the best forever

 

[Smash John]

You won't have a well designed ROB IMO until Side B is not simultaneously:

1. Recovery
2. Combo Escaper / Juggle Escaper / Landing Assister
3. Approach Tool
3.1 Juggle / Platform Trapping Assister (Side B Uair under platforms or Side B to reposition underneath opponent during Juggle, kind of falls under approach catagory but a bit different)
4. Edgeguard Tool

This is somewhat close to my feelings on the matter. I don't want to see a mechanic unique to him be gutted, but the amount of mobility and pressure it gives on top of him still being a pretty difficult to combo character makes it not that committal of an option for how much he gets off of it since getting hit out of it still leaves you with a jump and 2 charges left which is still a really good recovery compared to many.

I don't want to see the option become a bad one, but i do feel like he should be more punishable for using it at inopportune moments. If he had only 2 charges, would that negatively impact him all that much? It would leave him with very similar amounts of pressure and followups, and still a very good and versatile recovery, but not necessarily both at the same time and make him choose more wisely when to use his charges.

 

[Ripple]

No more nerfs. At all. Characters are going to have bull**** that won't ever be removed or altered further and people know it a LA quick draw, spacies neutral, G&W up-b, Rob stuff; just ****ing buff bad characters so we can have a good and fun game again

I really hope pmdt isn't just ignoring top players quiting this game because their characters are getting the bat. And I really hope people aren't just attributing it to salt.

Me, sethlon, umbreon, hamyojo, oro, and probably more.

 

[DMG]

Characters are going to have bull**** that won't ever be removed or altered further

-Neutral Special (Inhale)
--Inhale windbox strength decreased from 10/30/50 WDSK -> 10/20/30.

PMDT making sure the most crucial balance concerns are addressed before the "no nerf" deadline for patches approaches

 

[Mage.]

No more nerfs. At all. Characters are going to have bull**** that won't ever be removed or altered further and people know it a LA quick draw, spacies neutral, G&W up-b, Rob stuff; just ****ing buff bad characters so we can have a good and fun game again

This. I don't necessarily agree with the game not being fun (to me it still is) but the game is in a good spot now. A majority of characters don't need anymore nerfs or changes while others need some buffs. Yes, there are still characters with clear cut advantages or strong options in many aspects of the game but regardless if they are nerfed other characters will take their place with clear cut advantages over the cast. No characters are created equal.

We can keep balancing this game for another five years and there will still be characters that have advantages over others. That's something that won't go away. The shift in balance has swayed away from 3.02 and there aren't anymore clearly broken mechanics. I'm confident that the PMDT has learned from 3.02 and won't make any large game-breaking buffs. Now we just need to swing the momentum of balancing back towards the other side and start handing out a few buffs here and there to those that need them while leaving those who don't the same.

We're almost there. Just a bit more of a push towards the other side and this game will be in its golden spot.

 

[CyberZixx]

OMG, please don't tell me Sethlon, Umbreon and Oro?! are quitting. Some of my fav players right there.

 

[DMG]

Oro and Umbreon have been unsatisfied with PM for awhile now. Surprised this is your first hearing of that: same with Hamyojo although partially for him was getting more involved with Melee.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Oro?! quitting literally killed any desire I had to watch WindyCitySmash, not that they stream much anymore. Sethlon's been absent from IaB for a while, Umbreon ever since 3.6 dropped and if Ripple was playing Dedede in 3.02 and is not doing that anymore that should tell you something.

You had your jank and fun paring chance in 3.5 and we agreed it was for the best, now stop meleefying this game for no good goddamned reason and give us a game we enjoy again.