Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

This post is a strawman.

AAAAAH

Actually it would be a Fallacy Fallacy to say it was wrong because it was a strawman, not a strawman to say it was wrong because it was a strawman.

both of these things are true - pointing out that a statement contains a fallacy does not inherently invalidate that argument unless you can demonstrate (beyond accusations of the presence of a fallacy) in what capacity the fallacy negates the evidence that they've presented

an example of argument from fallacy would be, I could claim that all video games are Nintendo games, and Melee is a video game, therefore Melee is a Nintendo game

and you could claim that I have affirmed the consequent, which is a logical fallacy, and therefore Melee is not a Nintendo game

the argument you would be making here is itself fallacious, as you'd be denying the antecedent and making an invalid assumption based on it ("if X, then Y; Not X; Therefore, Not Y")

this is relevant because pointing out that an argument is or contains "a strawman" is not a valid way of addressing an argument; in this case, we have Yursaman and Foo both responding to what Strong Bad said

in Foo's case he responds to what Strong Bad was implying by restating his own statements and how they were not the arguments that Strong Bad seemed to be implying they were (Strong Bad later goes on to make another strawman argument because he's dumb) - he invalidates Strong Bad's argument by pointing out why Strong Bad's statements were faulty

in Yursaman's case, he responds to Strong Bad by saying his statements were faulty; he doesn't actually refute any particular arguments, he just implies that through the presence of a fallacy that they must therefore be invalid, but doesn't demonstrate in what capacity they are invalid

calling someone's argument a strawman in this fashion (i.e not refuting things, just saying the word strawman or implying that they've made a strawman argument) is in itself not only argument from fallacy ("Strong Bad's argument contains a fallacy and therefore must be wrong"), but a strawman (replacing Strong Bad's argument with the idea that his argument is incorrect, then attacking that instead - this would be an example of oversimplification), which is in itself both circular reasoning ("Strong Bad's argument is wrong, therefore it must be wrong") and ad hominem ("Strong Bad is making a logical fallacy, therefore his ability to argue must be impaired, and as such we should ignore his arguments")

so basically;

1. Strong Bad (and yes, he was wrong, here) being wrong doesn't matter unless you can explain why
2. arguing that someone is wrong does not prove that they are wrong
3. arguing that someone is using a logical fallacy does not prove they are wrong
4. in that same vein, arguing that someone is not using a logical fallacy (and/or saying that they are "arguing correctly" or in Strong Bad's case "using valid argumentation") does not mean that they're right
5. arguments can - and often do - use more than one logical fallacy at once
6. arguing that someone is "making a strawman" is irrelevant (1), invalid as an argument (3) and is, in itself, a strawman, as you're replacing their arguments (whatever they may be) with oversimplified versions for the sake of being easier to argue against

long story short if you ever make an argument that actually contains the word "fallacy" or the name of any logical fallacy, congratulations you're not arguing correctly

 

[DMG]

>I come to this thread

>Strawman and Fallacy tossed everywhere

Must be weird to be nerds like u guys. I came here to see Pikachu players quit over QAC nerfs, and laugh at Yoshi mains for the future that will follow footstool edgeguards.

 

[Juushichi]

This thread is hilarious right now. But let's move to an actual discussion instead of arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the topic of the thread.

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

 

[MLGF]

Still mid at best.

 

[DMG]

How good Ganondorf becomes, is directly linked to how much swag you have.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Float still needs to be optimized. I don't think anyone's edgeguarding or tech chasing with Ganon as well as they could be.

Jiggs is viable this patch.

 

[Foo]

>I come to this thread

>Strawman and Fallacy tossed everywhere

Must be weird to be nerds like u guys. I came here to see Pikachu players quit over QAC nerfs, and laugh at Yoshi mains for the future that will follow footstool edgeguards.

Being a nerd is great, you don't know what you are missing.

6. arguing that someone is "making a strawman" is irrelevant (1), invalid as an argument (3) and is, in itself, a strawman, as you're replacing their arguments (whatever they may be) with oversimplified versions for the sake of being easier to argue against

long story short if you ever make an argument that actually contains the word "fallacy" or the name of any logical fallacy, congratulations you're not arguing correctly

I was right with you up until this point. If someone used a logical fallacy, you can point that out to refute that piece of evidence, but it doesn't prove them wrong. Let's say hypothetically one side says "I am right because my opponent is a !@#$%^," then, because that is a fallacious example of ad hominem, it's not a valid piece of evidence. However, it doesn't make him wrong. Using your example with melee, if we were arguing about whether or not melee was a nintendo game (let's just say it wasn't obvious) and you made the point you used as an example, I could point out that that argument is fallacious, and thus, that piece of evidence is invalid.

Here is all the fallacy fallacy means. No matter how dumb anyone in a debate is, they can't change the facts by making bad arguments. In other words, making a fallacious argument doesn't serve as evidence for either side.

Also, pointing out a fallacious argument is in no way a strawman, so long as they genuinely did. Cherry picking your opponents points is not a strawman. If I made a long and otherwise amazing argument about, let's say, global warming but at one point referred to CO2 as a metal (or whatever), then my opponent would not be using a strawman if he did nothing but say "My opponent said CO2 is a metal, when it is, in fact, a nonmetal." The same thing applies to fallacies. BUT ANYWAY

This thread is hilarious right now. But let's move to an actual discussion instead of arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the topic of the thread.

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

How good Ganondorf becomes, is directly linked to how much swag you have.

I feel like ganon's viability this patch is inversely proportional to time spent on said patch.

Float still needs to be optimized. I don't think anyone's edgeguarding or tech chasing with Ganon as well as they could be.

Jiggs is viable this patch.

I agree, but I'm not really sure it helps him too much. Also, I agree, jiggs is viable this patch. (but she has some AWFUL matchups lawl)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

ganon will become more viable when metal cavern is legalized

 

[CORY]

This thread is hilarious right now. But let's move to an actual discussion instead of arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the topic of the thread.

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

Still mid at best.

agree. though, it's a pretty big move up, imo. he was terrible once you got passed scrub wrecker stage previously. now, he's just "ok, but you're probably not solo main winning a tourney with him".

 

[Rᴏb]

@ Bleck Accusing something of being a straw man isn't a straw man in and of itself when the accused argument actually is a straw man. By pointing out that SB's argument was a straw man, I was implying that he was misrepresenting Foo's argument, and that's it. I wasn't misrepresenting SB's argument by calling it that, and I was in no way committing any of the other fallacies (ad hominem, circular reasoning, etc.) simply because my observation was actually correct. Admittedly, I didn't explain why until a couple of posts later, but regardless, that doesn't necessarily undermine my original statement or make it fallacious.

Man this thread is so fun to post in /s

Can you people tell me what you think about ZSS?

 

[Frost | Odds]

This thread is hilarious right now. But let's move to an actual discussion instead of arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the topic of the thread.

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

Still (almost) strictly better than Bowser, probably still not better than Mid tier.

It's not that he's a bad character, or anywhere near as terribly flawed as Bowser in terms of his ability to navigate the neutral game -- they just both still basically get hard countered by a significant portion of the top tier characters for similar, though distinct reasons. No matter how good Ganon's spotdodge is, he'll always suck against Fox. Similarly, Bowser being able to more quickly circumnavigate the stage doesn't really help him much against dash dance camping, because his new movement option is insanely high commitment, and not not terribly useful in neutral.

 

[Foo]

Can you people tell me what you think about ZSS?

Assuming you mean in terms of viability, I think she's pretty good. She has a lot of key strengths, such as high mobility, low landing lag aerials, great combos, good edgeguarding, good recovery, great hard-read dsmash, decent spacing ability, and tricky options. However, she also has a few huge weaknesses that keep her out of top or high tier.

She has very limited shield pressure. Her only option that is legitimately safe on shield is spaced bair, and that's -2 on shield and then she has mediocre shield traps with jab on the rest of her aerials. She also has very weak kill options. Bair and fmsmash (out of dsmash) are decent, but they won't' kill till about 100% unless they are landing off stage. Fair is decent because you can actually combo into it, but it has weak kill power so you have to land it at about 120 or land it off stage. Basically, her only kill option you can combo into is weak, and her others need to be landed raw, unless you get a gimp, which she is fairly good at. Next, she has really bad defensive options. She has a shield grab now, but it has low rewards and her up-b and nair oos no longer work due to range nerfs. Her best defense is to dash dance and dodge to punish. Next, her grab is average, but she has the worst throws in the game. With proper DI, you can avoid any follow up and almost any% with any character (except low% tech chases with dthrow) and there is no potential for DI mixups. Finally, she has bad matchups with pretty much all of the top tiers, particularly spacies. Fox-ZSS is probably like 80-20 at best.

Overall, this lands her around upper middle. She can absolutely win tournaments, but you'll probably need a secondary to deal with spacies.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Tether only characters have a good recovery?

Idk how the mu with her and fox would be so low. Im sure ive seen oro make it work.

 

[Foo]

Tether only characters have a good recovery?

Idk how the mu with her and fox would be so low. Im sure ive seen oro make it work.

ZSS is the only tether only character with a good recovery for several reasons. One is that her down b can be used to act as a third jump. Nothing incredible, but it beats out ivysaur and dair and olimar neutral b by a wide margin especially since she gets it back after being hit, meaning you pretty much can't gimp her unless you make her lose her double jump. She also has a sort of vertical up-b. If you up-b as you double jump, it will about double the height of your jump, and, unlike other characters, you can still act out of it. That gives her good distance, and the potential to recover high, especially since you can air dodge after it. The key thing, though, is that she is the only tether who has actual options when tethering onto stage. She has high aerial mobility, so almost no character can cover every jump angle with one option (unless you are fox with good reaction time). This is important because, if you hold back after the tether hop, you can still up-tether ledge if you time it right. I'm pretty sure ivy and oli cannot do that.

As for the spacies matchup, the ZSS boards are basically unanimous (or included). I've already made a post on this, so I"ll just link it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-591#post-18224407

Later down the page of this thread also has some prominent ZSS players talking about the spacy matchup.

http://smashboards.com/threads/b-b-zero-suit-general-discussion.331650/page-16


The reason it's so bad is because ZSS has no options to deal with fox, and struggles to even gimp him. Most characters supplement their spacy matchups by being able to combo them 0-death pretty easily, but ZSS struggles at comboing fast fallers. All she can really do is tech chase until higher %s. Her terrible defense, and weaker offense really seal it. All ZSS can really do in that matchup is fish for spaced moves and chip him down, but most of ZSS moves do 10% or less, so...

 

[Bleck]

Using your example with melee, if we were arguing about whether or not melee was a nintendo game (let's just say it wasn't obvious) and you made the point you used as an example, I could point out that that argument is fallacious, and thus, that piece of evidence is invalid.

what I'm saying here is that explaining why the argument is fallacious would render it invalid; literally saying "that argument is fallacious" does not

since one doesn't ever have to use the word fallacy to describe the holes in an argument, the likelihood that they're making their argument incorrectly tends to increase dramatically as soon as they actually start talking about logical fallacies

Cherry picking your opponents points is not a strawman. If I made a long and otherwise amazing argument about, let's say, global warming but at one point referred to CO2 as a metal (or whatever), then my opponent would not be using a strawman if he did nothing but say "My opponent said CO2 is a metal, when it is, in fact, a nonmetal." The same thing applies to fallacies.

you can't say that "cherry picking points isn't a strawman" and then make an example of someone cherry picking a point and how it's a strawman dude

@ Bleck Accusing something of being a straw man isn't a straw man in and of itself when the accused argument actually is a straw man. By pointing out that SB's argument was a straw man, I was implying that he was misrepresenting Foo's argument, and that's it. I wasn't misrepresenting SB's argument by calling it that, and I was in no way committing any of the other fallacies (ad hominem, circular reasoning, etc.) simply because my observation was actually correct. Admittedly, I didn't explain why until a couple of posts later, but regardless, that doesn't necessarily undermine my original statement or make it fallacious.

yeah okay so like the thing here is that saying that something is true does not actually make it true okay

I was like "here is why your response was a bad argument" and your response here is basically "no" and like good job explaining just how many things you're saying no to but uh it doesn't really matter

It's not that he's a bad character, or anywhere near as terribly flawed as Bowser in terms of his ability to navigate by the neutral game -- they just both still basically get hard countered by a significant portion of the top tier characters for similar, though distinct reasons. No matter how good Ganon's spotdodge is, he'll always suck against Fox. Similarly, Bowser being able to more quickly circumnavigate the stage doesn't really help him much against dash dance camping, because his new movement option is insanely high commitment, and not not terribly useful in neutral.

it's almost like this whole metagame revolves around characters being fast or something

 

[Bazkip]

How good Ganondorf becomes, is directly linked to how much swag you have.

I think Ganon needs a press B to don glasses taunt
Then he will be top of the swag tier list

 

[TTTTTsd]

This thread is hilarious right now. But let's move to an actual discussion instead of arguing about things that aren't even relevant to the topic of the thread.

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

He's definitely a good deal better BUT still probably mid at best. You probably won't win solo maining him but for the most part he is definitely way more usable and viable compared to 3.0, for sure. That's pretty unanimous.

 

[Paradoxium]

I just learned that DDD is actually not trash tier and that he is good. WHY HAVE YOU PEOPLE BEEN LYING TO ME

 

[supascoot]

I just learned that DDD is actually not trash tier and that he is good. WHY HAVE YOU PEOPLE BEEN LYING TO ME

Ripple has been telling us all this time and none of us even noticed!

(really tho he's just super underplayed, he has really good tools but is shut down by spacies and characters with good shield pressure so he won't ever make it big in majors)

 

[Bleck]

"this character is good but gets shut down by spacies"

project m, everybody

 

[howbadisbad]

"this character is good but gets shut down by spacies"

project m, everybody

becuz melee

 

[Paradoxium]

"this character is good but gets shut down by spacies"

project m, everybody

This player is bad, but gets shut down by melee/brawl players who don't even own the game

Project M players, everybody

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Lets talk about the Melee top 7 (Icies are too different imo). How much of their placing is based on the other characters that are popular (in melee). I think this is helpful to see where they are in terms of viability. Perhaps a more relevant question would be to explain why people don't think highly of Jigglypuff but do think highly of Fox (and why Marth you get mixed opinions.).

 

[DMG]

Jiggs (and possibly Peach/Ganon) were the hardest hit characters for dealing with much bigger hitboxes, better recoveries, larger and varied stages (more so for Peach/Ganon dealing with campy play from bad MU's), etc If IC's had wobbling, but were still 3.0 weird, they would have probably been just a couple of spots lower than Melee tbh.


Marth is low tier in our hearts, but pretty good right now. All Melee characters, and the better half of Brawl characters, benefited from other characters getting nerfs. Heck, even Bowser or someone relatively "bad" enjoys some stuff in the game right now.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ripple has been telling us all this time and none of us even noticed!

(really tho he's just super underplayed, he has really good tools but is shut down by spacies and characters with good shield pressure so he won't ever make it big in majors)

Fly Amanita

 

[Sinz]

Fly Amanita

That's different. When you fight against Fly you aren't fighing D3, You are fighting Fly's hair.

 

[Strong Badam]

So, there was a lot of hype about Ganondorf at the outset of 3.5 by the masses. Where do you nerds think he falls right now?

He falls slowly



while hovering

and kills G&W in 4 hits

 

[Soft Serve]

Fly hasn't played pm since before evo guys

The DDDs thats have been instilling fear into our hearts and souls and ripple, heysuess, big D (if he still plays?). DDD is good, gets locked down by like Falco really badly, but heysuess told me he only has a handfull of MUs thay are truly painful to play.

 

[howbadisbad]

What if they just made nana respawn after like 15-20seconds like the ****ing star in smash 4.

It probably wouldn't make them broken, but don't quote me on this.

 

[Foo]

What if they just made nana respawn after like 15-20seconds like the ****ing star in smash 4.

It probably wouldn't make them broken, but don't quote me on this.

oops

This player is bad, but gets shut down by melee/brawl players who don't even own the game

Project M players, everybody

What does this even mean?

 

[InfinityCollision]

I just learned that DDD is actually not trash tier and that he is good. WHY HAVE YOU PEOPLE BEEN LYING TO ME

A lot of characters could make his life pretty painful in 3.0. Most of that got nerfed, recoveries got nerfed, etc. I actually don't recall that many people saying D3 is bad in 3.5. His matchup spread seems pretty polarized though. Great winning matchups, lousy losing matchups (though again, much less so now), probably not a lot in the middle.

 

[| Big D |]

I beat SFAT at PNWR and took M2K to game 5

Dedede is still solid.

 

[Ripple]

"gets shut down by spacies"

-people who don't actually play DDD or a spacie in the DDD MU.

I have stated on more than 1 occasion in here, that it is my FIRM belief that DDD actaully soft counters fox


also still getting really pissed at people mentioning fly being better than me and big D when he hasn't played since March AND fly placed 4th at like the FIRST big 3.0 tournament, nobody had a ****ing clue who was broken or overpowered at all and he relied on his smarts to win, which is great and serious props to him, then I come along and get multiple top 8s at tournaments, a win at a regional, AND top 8 at the largest PM tournament ever WAY after 3.0 with broken characters and recoveries everywhere AND a then clearly established bottom 5 character due to multiple unwinnable MUs.

 

[Foo]

"gets shut down by spacies"

-people who don't actually play DDD or a spacie in the DDD MU.

I have stated on more than 1 occasion in here, that it is my FIRM belief that DDD actaully soft counters fox

Soft counter for fox... so, 45-55 fox favor, or even? That's typically what that means xD

 

[DrinkingFood]

That's never what that means

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Mario was pretty close to a 50:50 or better on a majority of the cast in 3.02, if I'm not mistaken. How's he looking in terms of his matchups in 3.5?

 

[Hylian]

I can confirm Fox is really hard against DDD, Ripple's specifically.

 

[Juushichi]

I can confirm that Ripple and his DDD are the truth.

Stop sleeping on the kid.

 

[_A1]

@ Foo He's saying that people who lose to and complain about spacies are just inexperienced players who suck or can't play the matchup. Which is sometimes true.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

DDD:fox is 50:50 AT WORST 60:40 in favor of ddd at best

I used to main ddd and keep him in my rotation when my weegee is doing poopy