Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

Why do we even have other characters
All in favor of Project Ganon, continue breathing.

 

[Strong Badam]

yes. ganon buffs and thats it

who cares about olimar, zelda, everyones recovery, everyones projectiles, pit, mewtwo, and link?

those are mostly nerfs and not bufs lol.

 

[steelguttey]

i thought you were saying that the only changes were ganon buffs nvm

 

[Hylian]

IC's do not have an advantage against Squirrel @ Hylian , try again

Mmm and why is that? I even think sopo does well against squirtle considering how easy squirtle is to dthrow cg. Squirtle doesn't have the tools to separate the climbers easily and IC's can easily catch squirtle where other characters couldn't because of their WD.

 

[Soft Serve]

Does bubble not separate them at all? I feel like it wouldn't be to bad.

CC dsmashes would really hurt him though, and I think squirtman has such bad tech options that ics can just wait and WD towards him and grab on reaction.

 

[Hylian]

Does bubble not separate them at all? I feel like it wouldn't be to bad.

CC dsmashes would really hurt him though, and I think squirtman has such bad tech options that ics can just wait and WD towards him and grab on reaction.

No, you can just tech bubbles and nana will be right beside you. If you shield bubble you get a free WD oos jab -> grab or dsmash.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Well..aside from the fact that Peach and M2 play absolutely nothing alike lol..

Obviously not, but there are definite parallels in regards to the ICs matchup for both characters.

M2 just doesn't have very many safe ways of separating the climbers, while peach has numerous.

Good enough to get the job done, which is all that matters.

float >>>>> hover against IC's.

Offensively maybe. Defensively no, especially not when mixed with teleport.

You mentioned covering teleport... here's the thing: Mewtwo's not going to approach with it, he's going to position with it. Can you cover teleport approaches? Sure, but Mewtwo doesn't (shouldn't) do that anymore (hence not a significant factor). Can ICs cover all of his positioning options? Not even close. He doesn't have to bother playing traditional footsies against them either, nor should he. You may not risk losing Nana off every mistake (though the possibility is still there), but he can punish you in more situations without invoking significant risk himself.

If the Mewtwo wants to jump in the fray and make his life harder then sure, maybe it's even. Against a Mewtwo that plays the matchup correctly? Not a chance.

 

[PlateProp]

Mmm and why is that? I even think sopo does well against squirtle considering how easy squirtle is to dthrow cg. Squirtle doesn't have the tools to separate the climbers easily and IC's can easily catch squirtle where other characters couldn't because of their WD.

Bubble and water gun separate them easily, along with his hydroplane down smash and his wavedash is better than the ICs. The fact that it 's easy for them to cg is irrelevant honestly, because IC's chaingrab pretty much everyone

 

[Hylian]

Obviously not, but there are definite parallels in regards to the ICs matchup for both characters.


Good enough to get the job done, which is all that matters.


Offensively maybe. Defensively no, especially not when mixed with teleport.

You mentioned covering teleport... here's the thing: Mewtwo's not going to approach with it, he's going to position with it. Can you cover teleport approaches? Sure, but Mewtwo doesn't (shouldn't) do that anymore (hence not a significant factor). Can ICs cover all of his positioning options? Not even close. He doesn't have to bother playing traditional footsies against them either, nor should he.

If the Mewtwo wants to jump in the fray and make his life harder then sure, maybe it's even. Against a Mewtwo that plays the matchup correctly? Not a chance.

And how exactly does M2 play the match-up "correctly"? I wasn't aware there was some sort of precedent for this. I've played against a lot of M2 with IC's, I didn't think many others had any experience with the match-up where both players are good with the characters. I mean no character can cover every positioning option..that is just the neutral game. IC's damage output is higher than M2's and they can cover his approach options well(as opposed to peach's approach options which are a nightmare for IC's to deal with). M2 has no good defensive options against IC's, max length bair on shield still gets punished by them, his moves that have enough shieldstun to not get punished aren't exactly quick and his aerial approaches get stuffed.

Bubble and water gun separate them easily, along with his hydroplane down smash and his wavedash is better than the ICs. The fact that it 's easy for them to cg is irrelevant honestly, because IC's chaingrab pretty much everyone

Err...I'm pretty sure Squirtles wavedash is not better than IC's...only luigi's goes further afaik but I could be wrong I guess. I've never had a problem dealing with bubble, you just tech and nana either techs or you get a free desynch and can punish squirtle approaching lol. If you shield you get WD OoS Jab Grab. Characters being easy to chaingrab is very important for IC's in PM as they cannot chaingrab every character(in fact they don't have nearly as many chaingrabs as they did in melee/brawl) unless you do ledge-handoffs. Squirtle being easy to CG is important because I can grab him from mid-stage, and just do dthrow -> regrab to the edge of the stage into a 0-death hand-off. There are not too many characters IC's can do this to, but it's a powerful tool and it works pretty easily on squirtle. Hydroplane dsmash is gimmicky and easy to react to(I played brawl with the person that discovered and named hydroplaning lol so I'm very used to the mechanic)

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Olimar for garbage tier

 

[InfinityCollision]

And how exactly does M2 play the match-up "correctly"?

Camp like a ************. ICs can't touch Mewtwo in neutral; Mewtwo can usually generate at least incremental advantage given the opportunity and eventually converts that into separation and a stock. It's a slow, lame matchup, but that's how Mewtwo beats ICs.

I've played against a lot of M2 with IC's

Two observations here. One, Mewtwo players are really bad at playing Mewtwo. Two, not many players are willing to play as lame as possible even when it's their ticket to victory.

I mean no character can cover every positioning option..that is just the neutral game.

Not what I'm saying. Peach has fairly well-defined options in terms of her ability to land from float. Mewtwo's options are much more varied, both moment-to-moment and in terms of the spatial area in which he might land. When Peach lands, she has to think about what ICs might do in the next couple of seconds. A good Mewtwo doesn't have to worry about that as much.

 

[Hylian]

Camp like a mother****er. ICs can't touch Mewtwo in neutral; Mewtwo can usually generate at least incremental advantage given the opportunity and eventually converts that into separation and a stock. It's a slow, lame matchup, but that's how Mewtwo beats ICs.

Haha people try to do this to me all the time. Camping is a pretty bad strategy against IC's considering they have one of the highest damage outputs in the game and they can catch pretty much anyone with their wavedash. M2 cannot camp IC's well because his air speed is low and IC's can just wavedash after his up-b. If M2 willingly puts himself above IC's it's just free damage for them.

Two observations here. One, Mewtwo players are really bad at playing Mewtwo. Two, not many players are willing to play as lame as possible even when it's their ticket to victory.

One observation here: You think playing lame is inherently better which isn't true at all. I find it much easier to win against camping opponents depending on their character(fox is extremely hard to beat when camping IC's ;_; )I've certainly had M2s try to camp me to no avail. Just saying people are bad at playing the character is kind of..pointless? People are also bad at playing IC's and don't really understand their options well because of the characters complicated nature.

Not what I'm saying. Peach has fairly well-defined options in terms of her ability to land from float. Mewtwo's options are much more varied, both moment-to-moment and in terms of the spatial area in which he might land. When Peach lands, she has to think about what ICs might do in the next couple of seconds. A good Mewtwo doesn't have to worry about that as much.

Of course M2 has to think about what to do when landing from float...if he even gets to land from float. It's quite easy to punish M2's hover with IC's considering his air speed and lack of good downwards hitboxes.

 

[kevinw0w]

Everyone always starts out thinking Fox is #1 every patch before everyone realizes the sickening truth that there is actually a character better than Fox.

I'm just calling it now so when it happens I can link back to a post made months ago and talk about how right I was.

Wow, such option coverage. "Eventually, there will be a character better than Fox in this patch but I don't know who it is."

 

[Soft Serve]

Haha people try to do this to me all the time. Camping is a pretty bad strategy against IC's considering they have one of the highest damage outputs in the game and they can catch pretty much anyone with their wavedash. M2 cannot camp IC's well because his air speed is low and IC's can just wavedash after his up-b. If M2 willingly puts himself above IC's it's just free damage for them.



One observation here: You think playing lame is inherently better which isn't true at all. I find it much easier to win against camping opponents depending on their character(fox is extremely hard to beat when camping IC's ;_; )I've certainly had M2s try to camp me to no avail. Just saying people are bad at playing the character is kind of..pointless? People are also bad at playing IC's and don't really understand their options well because of the characters complicated nature.



Of course M2 has to think about what to do when landing from float...if he even gets to land from float. It's quite easy to punish M2's hover with IC's considering his air speed and lack of good downwards hitboxes.

While you're here answering IC questions, what do ICs have in pm to deal with top platform camping? Does the stage list help to prevent that as an option, or are there tools now to deal with it better?

 

[Hylian]

While you're here answering IC questions, what do ICs have in pm to deal with top platform camping? Does the stage list help to prevent that as an option, or are there tools now to deal with it better?

Stage list helps. Their hitboxes are a bit better than melee, fair and uair both hit the top platform. They also have a killing up-b now which is at least a threat for people to keep in mind. Ice blocks help a lot as well as strange as that sounds because they are so much better than melee iceblocks you can put them onto the top platform from the side while falling under it and then jump uair or waveland on grab if they shield.

 

[InfinityCollision]

M2 cannot camp IC's well because his air speed is low

What. Mewtwo's horizontal speed during hover is actually very good, as is his non-hover air speed. His momentum shifting ability during hover is also fairly high, and he now retains full momentum going into hover.

You think playing lame is inherently better which isn't true at all.

No, I think it's better in specific matchups/situations.

Of course M2 has to think about what to do when landing from float...if he even gets to land from float. It's quite easy to punish M2's hover with IC's considering his air speed and lack of good downwards hitboxes.

IC's can just wavedash after his up-b

I... oh dear. Do you have footage of any of these 3.5 Mewtwos you've played (preferably but not necessarily against you) on any stage that isn't FD? Mewtwo has one of the easiest times getting back to ground of any character simply because of the variety of options he can field from the air.

 

[DMG]

Oh wow, a MU that will never happen in PM cause 95% of Mewtwo population quit, and there are only like ~3 IC players in the entirety of PM (Yoshi, Olimar, and D3 probably have more mains at this point). I'm so glad we're having this!

Polite edit: Hylian's probably right. Changes nothing for me

 

[GP&B]

Are we seriously going to argue with Hylian of all people over this.

 

[Foo]

Come on guys, just because he's Hylian doesn't mean he's automatically right. They've both made some good point (and a few not so good ones). I know nothing about either matchup, so I'm not sure with whom I agree, but I feel it could go either way.

 

[Hylian]

Uh..yeah. Didn't really mean to start arguments just wanted to post my thoughts on their match-up spread since so many people put them as "don't know" in tier lists or just last because they know very little about them. Obviously I don't expect 100% of people to agree with my numbers, but I have played against the entire cast with them against good(or at least around my level) players. Also please don't not argue with me because I'm hylian lol, just because I know a lot about IC's doesn't mean I know everything(impossible!). I learn stuff from others all the time about my characters .

 

[Deleted member]

Camping is a pretty bad strategy against IC's considering they have one of the highest damage outputs in the game and they can catch pretty much anyone with their wavedash.

As a Toon Link main, this sentence makes me laugh
HAR HAR HAR

 

[Hylian]

As a Toon Link main, this sentence makes me laugh
HAR HAR HAR

Toon Link is sooooo hard for IC's ;_; I would rather play a peach.

 

[DMG]

Toon Link breaks the rules. He's a little munchkin who causes trouble, throws piggies into the Sea, throws bombs at people, breaks all your pottery, he's a monster.

...

And that's why we love him so much

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link is all like "**** your neutral game, bomb hitconfirms into free 80%"

and then fox comes to shut him up

 

[Hylian]

More like you throw a bomb at them and Nana is like "NOPE I CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS ****" and runs off the stage for you.

 

[Frost | Odds]

They All Laugh Now Tier: Mewtwo, Yoshi, ROB

Dec 27, 2014, ladies

easy to ctrl f for all the inevitable "I told you so"s around this time next year, for either myself or the nonbelieving sheeple ;o

you believe me, right @ Soft Serve ? ;__________;

 

[DMG]

>Laugh now

>>Yoshi

No thx I'll keep laughing

 

[Frost | Odds]

Eh, you do play Footstoolio

 

[steelguttey]

wario isnt even known for footstooling

if more people played peach they would realized that footstool hover is one of the scariest offensive options ever that is a free follow up no matter what youre doing she is so ****ing good in this game

 

[DMG]

wario isnt even known for footstooling

??? R U SRS

Edit:

 

[steelguttey]

hes known for cool footstool combos but peach should be footstooling more than him tbh

 

[Juushichi]

peach generally will take her corner carry tyvm.

vs yoshi for sure though. she should be FS him every chance she gets. him, kirby, maybe puff... definitely MK.

ya'll really should be FSing MK recovery every chance you get.

 

[DMG]

With MK's Dair changed, I feel no need to respect his recovery enough to bother doing something like that.

 

[Sethlon]

ya'll really should be FSing MK recovery every chance you get.

Wait
Can you footstool MK out of his glide?
Because if so, yeah, we should be doing that lol

If you're talking about just footstooling MK out of him double jumping around, you're a mad man. Offstage is a dangerous place, Roys die out there

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Oh wow, a MU that will never happen in PM cause 95% of Mewtwo population quit,

now he can be a legendary pokemon again

 

[Jacob29]

as a fat koopa king how do i footstool.. anyone..

yoshi i can see being legit just about though

 

[Jolteon]

Pretty sure ICs is like by far the best MU for TL haha. 7:3 at best imo.

 

[Soft Serve]

They All Laugh Now Tier: Mewtwo, Yoshi, ROB

Dec 27, 2014, ladies

easy to ctrl f for all the inevitable "I told you so"s around this time next year, for either myself or the nonbelieving sheeple ;o

you believe me, right @ Soft Serve ? ;__________;

I think people already know rob is a good character
People way over reacted to m2 nerfs, he is still fantastic and a contender for top 10/12 imo. Amazing positioning game, TP going through platforms downward now is huge. The only really big nerf that still effects him (tp> hover got removed so it doesn't effect his game at all anymore, although you can still do it with tap jump buffer tricks )is the uptilt nerf.
Fair is still ~0 on shields, sideb and down b are still amazing, his kit is great. If he had a faster jab (right now it hits like frame 8) I would dual main him

Yoshi is really good, lacks an approach though. He has to work really hard to make openings vs opponents that play a patient nuetral game, because his game right now is space dtilts and pivot grab and platform shenanigans. Really good, but wouldn't say OP or anything because the other good/popular characters (spacies, shiek, sonic, diddy, etc etc) all beat him imo.

 

[Frost | Odds]

as a fat koopa king how do i footstool.. anyone..

yoshi i can see being legit just about though

I footstooled a local Yoshi about 15 times when we spent some hours grinding a week or two ago. It's hard, but Browser can totally do it.

good/popular characters diddy

I thought over 9000 diddy mains quit in post patch rage?

Meanwhile, the good ones still making their friends' lives hell.

Also, the importance of Yoshi's eggs not exploding midair is tough to overstate. He can actually approach pretty reliably under a lobbed egg, and it guarantees a grab if hitting someone's shield when Yoshi's close enough.

 

[Soft Serve]

I footstooled a local Yoshi about 15 times when we spent some hours grinding a week or two ago. It's hard, but Browser can totally do it.


I thought over 9000 diddy mains quit in post patch rage?

Meanwhile, the good ones still making their friends' lives hell.

Joe still mains diddy, June and dla dual main diddy ganon, Disqo is potentially coming back this patch for a while, luck is still doing great, abstract logic seems to be more active, Texas has another diddy that made top 8 at forte2. I don't know about bladewise, haven't kept up with the Washington scene at all, but almost all the other good/relevant diddy mains who made impacts at events still play him, with good success. The nerfs only really hit one particular style of diddy play (2 banana camping, over reliance on sideb, only taking stocks with da off stage, etc) so everyone was fine to begin with or adapted already.
I'll be a relevant diddy somedayy~