Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pika boards are toxic

 

[Choice Scarf]

Toxic how? They're more inert than anything

 

[PlateProp]

Fox/Falco having an instantaneous spike is pretty toxic, why aint that **** removed

 

[Deleted member]

btw lucario is only 3'11

we should make him smaller as well

 

[Foo]

Squirtle is only half a meter tall, so I think we need to make him smaller too. Wait, what's wrong, why are you crying?

 

[Choice Scarf]

And Olimar is an inch tall. Clearly he'll get better if he's actually to proportion, cause who knows how long he's needed his tether to be only measurable in pixels

 

[DMG]

On some TV screens, Olimar would be huge if he were an inch tall

Don't mind me, just blowing some minds folks

 

[howbadisbad]

Does the PMBR have any intentions of fixing inherent flaws with characters? IE Mario bros and other low disjoint characters constantly getting dunked by Marth in every smash ever.

 

[MLGF]

Sonic boards are toxic

Fixed.
Cynical whiny players vs Optimistic rational players fighting forever.

 

[Bleck]

stop saying toxic you insufferable plebeians

 

[mimgrim]

stop saying toxic you insufferable plebeians

But you just said the word. So your no better then the ones who say the word.

 

[shairn]

Does the PMBR have any intentions of fixing inherent flaws with characters? IE Mario bros and other low disjoint characters constantly getting dunked by Marth in every smash ever.

None of the characters generally considered the best in the game have swords. Mario is still amazing, and probably still goes at least even with Marth. Swords are really good, but you can still zone them out.

 

[Bleck]

But you just said the word. So your no better then the ones who say the word.

what are you, five

 

[Foo]

what are you, five

You are trying to prevent of from using a word. A word. You're not really one to talk.

 

[Bleck]

I'm not trying to stop them from using a word, I'm trying to get them to use ones that are more appropriate to whatever it is that they're criticizing

if you think that the community's growing habit of using the word "toxic" to mean "bad" regardless of circumstance or context isn't something to be annoyed by then hello congratulations you may in fact be an idiot

 

[Rᴏb]

all of you are toxic

Does the PMBR have any intentions of fixing inherent flaws with characters? IE Mario bros and other low disjoint characters constantly getting dunked by Marth in every smash ever.

mario beats marth, son
otherwise, no.

 

[DMG]

mario beats marth, son
otherwise, no.

Are we playing the same PM patch? The one where his Fireballs aren't as good and his recovery isn't as good?

 

[Rᴏb]

Are we playing the same PM patch? The one where his Fireballs aren't as good and his recovery isn't as good?

Are you saying those two nerfs were remarkable enough to sway the matchup away from Mario's favor?

cuz i don't see it. I'd say all of the nerfs Mario received were subtle enough to not make that much of a difference in this particular instance.

 

[DMG]

Are you saying those two nerfs were remarkable enough to sway the matchup away from Mario's favor?

cuz i don't see it. I'd say the all of the nerfs Mario received were subtle enough to not make that much of a difference in this particular instance.

Uh, yes? Those were the 2 most drastic changes between Mario/Doc and Marth for Melee vs PM transition. A better projectile and a better recovery matter way more than most of his other buffs, and he has some nerfs to deal with too (Dthrow has had KBG increases 1-2 times already, he can't CG for as long as he could in Melee).


Mario and Doc both lost in Melee. The two most important buffs were definitely the Fireball and Recovery buffs. You could argue that the fusion buffs were also strong, but that was mostly gaining Doc attributes and Doc still lost with those better tools for fighting Marth. Doc already had god-fair, better edgeguard Bair, etc. Mario gaining those in PM shouldn't magically propel him to winning the MU, and since the majority of changes WERE fusions like that, I don't see how you could argue Mario wins without pointing to 3.0 Mario Fireball + Recovery.

 

[Rᴏb]

I still feel like Mario has the tools to outright challenge the majority of Marth's moves with fair being the only apparent outlier to me at the moment. Marth's fair is good and all, but I don't think it can carry him enough past the point where it becomes predictable. Fireballs don't poop all over Marth's entire moveset anymore, but they are still an effective option for when you want to bait Marth out of DDing. Mario's recovery is still quite good and still beats Marth's edgeguarding. Mario can still get out of Marth's combos. Mario still has the easiest time edgeguarding Marth.

It's like, everything Marth does well, Mario has an answer for.

 

[shairn]

How do current fireballs compare to Melee's?

 

[DMG]

Marginally better? More consistent damage, slightly better angle than Melee Mario but sometimes worse/better than Pills, etc. I don't know the comparison for frame data or cooldown, but I can't imagine a huge gap now in comparison to Melee

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's -3 or 4 frames of endlag now (compared to melee)

 

[Jacob29]

We should have a character confidence tier list.

Where we rank characters by how much their respective player base complains about them.

 

[steelguttey]

luigi would be like mid tier cause everyone says **** like "luigi is so bull**** wtf" and luigi players are like "haha yea"

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Plz stop
wow
Marth wins ok

Marth mains love to pretend they so low tier

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I don't understand why people think peach is mediocre, that character has high tier written all over her.

 

[Bleck]

Marth mains love to pretend they so low tier

it's 'cause Melee Marth is the game's Easy Mode

 

[shairn]

Plz stop
wow
Marth wins ok

Marth mains love to pretend they so low tier

Marth is terrible though. His sword is so short, and he couldn't even get a grab if he tried.
Can't even kill at 120%, like wtf.

 

[B.W.]

And Olimar is an inch tall. Clearly he'll get better if he's actually to proportion, cause who knows how long he's needed his tether to be only measurable in pixels

Correction though. Olimar is only 1.9 centimeters tall from the top of his antenna down.

Actually I guess I'm bad at measuring stuff, that's pretty close to an inch.

 

[Beorn]

So I'm going to try my hand at this tier list thing.

Here goes

S





A













B









C












D







E



Some Ideas and insight about the characters and how I've ranked them-

Needs small nerfs
(one of two tweaks to make a couple of moves less good)

(landing lag on his up-b like every other character and we are good)
( He is the best character without being unfair or having stupid design properties. He just needs some toning down)

Needs heavy buffs
(too many weaknesses not enough strengths to make up for them)

(having a poor combo weight, easily edgegaurded recovery and bad oos options while not having anything stellar to make up for it is a problem. I obviously know more about this character than the others I've listed because i main him)
(Fix this guy. Hes got a good base, but hes just so complicated with all of the systems he has going on.)

Needs small buffs
(well placed enhancements to bring them in line with other characters)

( Better recovery and he would be solid)
( I dont know if there is a way to help him with out him being stupid again)
(shes so close to being good)

Jank tier
(Characters that get there placement from poor design rather than a solid tool-set)

( PMBR did an amazing job of fixing janky **** in 3.5. This would have been a huge tier in 3.0. This is the stuff that made it through.)

(remove second jump out of up-b and hes a good but not stupid character B tier)
( c4 is still too potent and easy to get with the rest of his toolset but all his other jank was dealt with in 3.5)
(is there anyway to make this character not suck and still be fun to play against?)
(people are finally starting to realise how good this character is)
(IDK)
(To controversial to go into)

The rest don't need anything really. They are very close to each other.
Some characters just have inherently worse recovery, or range because of their model. ggs pmbr.
It would just be a game of leap frog to continue
tweaking the other characters for anything other than feel, cleanliness, and aesthetics, but that jank needs to go.

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle still has a pretty good recovery. It's just not unpunishable at certain spots and if you get caught out of withdraw you can't gtfo aquajet anymore.

Not going to comment on the placement of the characters because I don't agree on a lot of it.

I still want to know, @Hylian where on the tier list is the spot where it notes Link's spin2winscrub horizontal nerf? I only see mention on the vertical height and the hitboxes.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar isnt bad cause hes to complicated hes bad cause he doesnt have anything good

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Give me an actual argument on link being good besides, " he throws stuff, it's good", and I'll consider it. Seriously, that character can't do anything except rack damage and hope you can't di. Because he isn't killing you otherwise, unless you're at 220%.

 

[shairn]

Link throws stuff that's appreciably better than Melee and hit confirms into most of his kill moves?
Like even dash attack kills at like 140-150%. Get grabbed above 100% for some characters and you might as well be dead. Dthrow still has really good followups in 3.5.

 

[PJB]

So I'm fairly new to the competitive scene and all I see is fox lol can anyone tell me what characters are best against him, and if there are any characters that are considered to possibly have a positive matchup against fox?

 

[MLGF]

All FE characters, Falco, Wolf, Mewtwo are the best against fox. Although best is like 50:50.

Fox is good.

 

[PJB]

Thanks. So far I main sheik but consistently lose to my friend's fox and beat all his other characters with her. I've been working on a mewtwo secondary, maybe I'll put more effort into dual-maining mewtwo and sheik

 

[DMG]

Beats Fox: Sethlon, M2K/PP on FD

Even with Fox: Some characters on FD

 

[Foo]

Yeah, I don't think fox loses a single matchup lol. The closest potential* would be g&watch, but fox neutral is so good that the matchup winds up being like 70:30 or 60:40 in fox's favor. Best counters to fox imo are Marth, Roy, ike(?), m2, and (most of all) fox.


*If game and watch touches fox, fox is basically dead. It's kinda like marth on FD, but he doesn't need to be on FD.