Tier List Speculation

[Sinz]

Although discrediting a players skill and ability to play the game and the MU just because they played fox is horrible. The game starts at the character selection screen, don't discredit someone because they picked a better character.

This I do agree with and I can definitely see how it can be taken that way. I apologize for that portion. If you are able to win at a high level then you deserve all the credit you can get. Regardless of whom you play as.

Fox got "nerfed" going in 3.5 but not like the other characters that got nerfed. Most other characters have to change they way they play to be effective. Fox just takes stocks 10% later.

Essentially he has no more risk than he did previously. I'm very happy he doesn't kill as he did previously.

Also technical difficulty isn't really a topic that should be even considered when looking at how good the character is, so easier short hops doesn't change anything for fox. Its far more about how they create openings and how much/how reliable the conversions are. Fox is great at all of those, and to create the openings and execute efficient combos you don't need to do anything more difficult than shffls and wavedashes, some of which are out of shine. yeah perfect multishines break the game, but the effort put into that doesn't net you any more than a shine grab or other shine pressure. Fox isn't hard to play or win with lol.

Technical skill really doesn't get discussed very much in theory play and that's true.
I don't know the frame rates on shine grab but is it completely safe on shield or can they sidestep? Currently at work for a while so I can't test at the moment.

 

[mimgrim]

10% isn't a big difference tbh and is barely noticeable on a character like Fox.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's not like upthrow upair doesn't still kill at that percent on floaties lol.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

@ Soft Serve weegee is not bottom ten lol like in all seriousness weegee is like A tier.

weegee (like samus) is one of the characters that both has the advantage of 12 years of melee metagame development as well as being buffed very nicely from melee (as well as relatively buffed from 3.0)

you want stupid? frame three nair
you want semi-game-breaking? commitment-free movement
you want really stupid wtf pmbr why u do dis? storable misfire which is practically guaranteed off of dthrow to kill when grabbed at 40%. that's like three dsmashes to a grab to death.

some of the issues weegee has, recovery and being unsafe in sheild have been alleviated. general recovery nerfs mean that weegee is no longer as alone in his recovery class, and sheild DI means that weegee can actually punish people who attack his shield rather than flying away.

tldr fear the weeg

also wario is A tier good I approve

 

[Foo]

That reminds me, has anyone figured out how to actually recover with luigi yet? I realized (not the first to do so) that you can bind all of the d-pad inputs to special and, after some testing, max mashing goes CRAZY high. I can drop off the edge on battlefield, wait till I am almost KO'd, then down-b with dpad mashing and I'll nicely sweetspot ledge without even needing to jump or up-b. You can go from top platform to off screen with nothing else, it's crazy. It goes even higher than G&W up-b. Sadly, I can't find a good video of this happening.

Method: Rebind up, side, and down taunt to special. Place your right thumb on the d-pad(I use the front knuckle) and then wiggle it quickly on a diagonal.

 

[DMG]

you want semi-game-breaking? commitment-free movement

I hope you're not talking about wavedashing, because wavedashing is by far more committing than strong DDing. The lag associated with the maneuver is not helpful.

 

[steelguttey]

zelda is high tier why is she so low what

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Zelda is poop and her face is proof of that

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I hope you're not talking about wavedashing, because wavedashing is by far more committing than strong DDing. The lag associated with the maneuver is not helpful.

nah wavescuttling

 

[steelguttey]

you mean the movement that can only go in one direction? kk

 

[BluntedMask]

Luigi can't be good, he doesn't have a tail.

 

[TTTTTsd]

nah wavescuttling

Isn't that still limited to simply one direction though? I could be wrong but last I checked he could only do it when facing one direction as opposed to the other.

For the record it's incredibly silly to look at, but moderately effective.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Isn't that still limited to simply one direction though? I could be wrong but last I checked he could only do it when facing one direction as opposed to the other.

For the record it's incredibly silly to look at, but moderately effective.

nah it can go in two directions just one is much easier to perform

and if we're talking tier lists it's all theory anyway

 

[PootisKonga]

I just looked up wavescuttling and it's hilarious

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also @ Soft Serve I agree with pretty much all of your list but I think Roy should be bumped down to like, not 3rd but somewhere in the Top 10, or even 8. 3rd is a bit generous (he's DEF really good now though, which I attest to the cast-wide nerfs especially to recovery, and his relatively unchanged self). Falco I'm not sure of but 5th seems like a good spot for him, BUTTTT I'm bad so IDK.

Fox vs. Wolf I'll give to Fox although if Fox got like, 1-2 more small nerfs and Wolf stayed the same I'd EASILY give it to Wolf. Space animal with air speed like that and just how his blaster works and ****? Yeah, definitely godlike. The margin is so small it's basically ****ing Star Fox canon tier at this point.

Credit where it's due that's pretty much exactly where I'd put Mario, positive he can still fight most everyone but I imagine his top tier MUs range from okay to bleh. But for the most part I think he can handle most everything to a bearable level i.e. basically where you put him, on the fringe of A-.

 

[Sinz]

I just looked up wavescuttling and it's hilarious

I wasn't able to find anything using the search feature on smashboards and google wasn't helpful either. ((

Link please D:

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wasn't able to find anything using the search feature on smashboards and google wasn't helpful either. ((

Link please D:

Here it is, in all of its janky looking glory.

 

[PootisKonga]

I wasn't able to find anything using the search feature on smashboards and google wasn't helpful either. ((

Link please D:

Edit: This is awkward

 

[Sinz]

Okay that is just hilarious.

 

[TreK]

wtf wavescuttling

And I thought the brawl community was bad at naming things. You guys are just on another level. We named this wavecrawling back in the day.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

wtf wavescuttling

And I thought the brawl community was bad at naming things. You guys are just on another level. We named this wavecrawling back in the day.

um pm community is extra bad with names
Just look at the squritle players. God have mercy on their souls.

 

[TTTTTsd]

wtf wavescuttling

And I thought the brawl community was bad at naming things. You guys are just on another level. We named this wavecrawling back in the day.

Nothing is going to beat the time in early preview Brawl days when people were trying to name tripping some goofy ****.

 

[DMG]

Yo dawg but them Hyphen Smashes

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Nothing is going to beat the time in early preview Brawl days when people were trying to name tripping some goofy ****.

You mean ink dropping lol
http://smashboards.com/threads/new-...eories-and-information-sticky-request.121441/

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Can someone explain what is so bad about Olimar?His aerials are great with large disjoint,and his grab while slow,lingers for an insane length of time.And his throws are good.

 

[DMG]

Olimar is a tiny baby Man-let, who promotes vegetable slavery with his cult of personality and propaganda pinning him as the One True Deity

 

[MLGF]

Really talk, if you get Luigi offstage and he makes it back; then you're doing it wrong.
Anyone with such an easy recovery has some serious hurdles when it comes to this game. Especially with so many strong disjoint characters that consume 3.5.

 

[steelguttey]

Can someone explain what is so bad about Olimar?His aerials are great with large disjoint,and his grab while slow,lingers for an insane length of time.And his throws are good.

his neutral is pivot grab and he has **** disjoints he gets outranged by fking ganondorf he has the worst disjoints in the game

his throws suck now, really.

 

[B.W.]

his neutral is pivot grab and he has **** disjoints he gets outranged by fking ganondorf he has the worst disjoints in the game

his throws suck now, really.

Adding to this, he's slow, lacks kill power, is RNG based, and probably has the worst recovery in the game.

 

[DMG]

Jiggs has the worst recovery, I mean really who would design her Upb like that? Even Yoshi can hit people with his, you do hers and she just dies. Plz buff

 

[jtm94]

his neutral is pivot grab and he has **** disjoints he gets outranged by fking ganondorf he has the worst disjoints in the game

his throws suck now, really.

Ganon has a lot more disjoint that some characters, and strong hitboxes that beat things out because damage.
His throws are not that bad. Play the pikmin.

 

[Ningildo]

I don't get something. People tell me Oli is crap in 3.5. But barely anyone plays him. So how would you make an opinion on this character then? ?.?

And where his recovery is...bad (like nearly as bad as in brawl. You know, where all you had to do was chill and hold on to the edge and laugh as Oli fell to his doom), edgeguarding with him is easy. Between runoff Fair, Fsmash, Purple pikmin toss and (why was this) buffed Dair, your opponent is either dead or takes a load of damage when off stage unless they're characters with great off stage capabilities (at which point you should just Fsmash). And while losing a possibly flowered pikmin sucks with Fsmash (make them able to be recalled with whistle in 4.0 among others, pls), it hurts less due leaf pikmin not being garbage in comparison to flowered pikmin anymore.

I really, really, REALLY wanted this to be the version where Oli shined in though, but instead I still have to play with a character who's projectiles momentum gets stopped by a 1% Laser. I mean, he isn't garbage, but he is bad and has possibly the worst MU against the best and most commonly played character in the game

tldr: Oli is bad and does desperately need buffs, but still has some sort usability regardless (mainly against fatties)

But really, **** Fox's lasers stopping a projectile that can could go through M2's fully charged Shadow Ball (Purple pikmin toss used to blot that out of existence and keep going, but now it just stops it at the cost of dying). Why even, PMBR? Oh, and before I forget:

-Pikmin elemental immunities are removed, but now can swim regardless of color.

Even after a month, this line in the Oli changelog still leaves me salty. Like, more salty then losing all my stocks in a match due G&W's 9 would make me.

 

[DMG]

I miss Doc's Lightning. Can we go back to that instead of "Light" attribute??????????????

 

[steelguttey]

I don't get something. People tell me Oli is crap in 3.5. But barely anyone plays him. So how would you make an opinion on this character then? ?.?

And where his recovery is...bad (like nearly as bad as in brawl. You know, where all you had to do was chill and hold on to the edge and laugh as Oli fell to his doom), edgeguarding with him is easy. Between runoff Fair, Fsmash, Purple pikmin toss and (why was this) buffed Dair, your opponent is either dead or takes a load of damage when off stage unless they're characters with great off stage capabilities (at which point you should just Fsmash). And while losing a possibly flowered pikmin sucks with Fsmash (make them able to be recalled with whistle in 4.0 among others, pls), it hurts less due leaf pikmin not being garbage in comparison to flowered pikmin anymore.

I really, really, REALLY wanted this to be the version where Oli shined in though, but instead I still have to play with a character who's projectiles momentum gets stopped by a 1% Laser. I mean, he isn't garbage, but he is bad and has possibly the worst MU against the best and most commonly played character in the game

tldr: Oli is bad and does desperately need buffs, but still has some sort usability regardless (mainly against fatties)

But really, **** Fox's lasers stopping a projectile that can could go through M2's fully charged Shadow Ball (Purple pikmin toss used to blot that out of existence and keep going, but now it just stops it at the cost of dying). Why even, PMBR? Oh, and before I forget:

Even after a month, this line in the Oli changelog still leaves me salty. Like, more salty then losing all my stocks in a match due G&W's 9 would make me.

i tried dude. go anywhere in 3.0 and i was a huge olimar main. but he is ****ing **** in 3.5 he has no neutral, and that would be fine if he had a good combo game, but even that got the ****ter. his gimmick, the pikmin system got ****ED and to top it off, his recovery got made even worse. it already was unreliable.

 

[Player -0]

Why isn't his nB refreshed when hit like ZSS'? ZSS has more options and a better recovery overall. Also considering Lucario used to get his Down B refreshed. And I'm probably getting some statement about how that's why it was removed.

 

[Soft Serve]

i tried dude. go anywhere in 3.0 and i was a huge olimar main. but he is ****ing **** in 3.5 he has no neutral, and that would be fine if he had a good combo game, but even that got the ****ter. his gimmick, the pikmin system got ****ED and to top it off, his recovery got made even worse. it already was unreliable.

I really enjoyed how Olimar (who was underrated in 3.0) and Link (who was way overrated in 3.0) both got nerfed way harder than Diddy, Mario, M2, fox or falco.

RIP olimar, you will be missed.

 

[Foo]

Why isn't his nB refreshed when hit like ZSS'? ZSS has more options and a better recovery overall. Also considering Lucario used to get his Down B refreshed. And I'm probably getting some statement about how that's why it was removed.

I think it's just because some characters are supposed to have better characters than others. ZSS has always had really good recovery, and probably always will. If she had recovery as bad as sheik or falcon there'd be very little reason to play him. I think the problem is that his tether isn't really working as intended, and the tether nerf went a little bit too far. Another reason that ZSS down-b is allowed to refresh from being hit is because it doesn't help her in most cases unless she has her double jump because you need to JC it.

Conclusion, I don't think he needs neutral b to refresh because pmbr wants characters to be more gimpable, but is recovery should instead be supplemented in some other way. Personally, I think up-b tethers should have the 3.02 (or maybe in between) tether hop.

 

[PootisKonga]

Even with the nerfs, I think Oli is better than people make him out to be.

Biased source: am salty towards a player who openly admits Oli is trash yet beats everyone with him anyway

 

[Ningildo]

Just give Oli the buffs he needs and deserves.

Anyway, I've been thinking, why not give a character's MU spread with explanations (preferably of one you play) rather then a tier list that people will disagree with because you didn't want to give reasoning behind the placements and when you do the people who main the character will go "lol, stfu, you obviously know nothing about X"? It sounds a bit more productive and you are far more likely to know the MUs between your main and the rest of the cast, then knowing the MUs of every single character against the rest of the cast.

It might also make people less snarky towards each other when replying :D

 

[Narpas_sword]

I miss Doc's Lightning. Can we go back to that instead of "Light" attribute??????????????

Im guessing it's something to do with the Lightning having a hitlag multiplier that they had to then calculate the moves power in order to bring it back down to be the same as mario.

Probably got sick of re calculating it with each adjustment.