Tier List Speculation

[SwordsRbroken]

Can someone show me footage of good P:M Lucas players?

 

[Hylian]

Can someone show me footage of good P:M Lucas players?

Any footage of lucas looks good really. I think it's really deceptive and he's a lot worse than people think because of how badly he gets combo'd/edgeguarded without the range/pressure to support it not to mention all the characters with easy 0-deaths on him. He's designed great and is super fun and amazing at comboing, but man his faults really hold him back in tournaments :/. I don't normally share this opinion because most people think lucas is awesome( he's one of my favorite characters in PM, super well made/fun to play) I just think he's really overrated :/.

 

[SpiderMad]

I knew you wouldn't play him 4real because he sucks

He's also one of the characters I really felt the input lag fix made harder to move smoothly with, which entirely killed him for me to play since I'm all about that.
Maybe the master of smooth Naerok would agree, if he was anywhere to be seen past 2.1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IAYdItVgo3E#t=361s

 

[Bryonato]

While I'm not a Lucas main from the times I've messed around with him he feels really solid. I think in the right hands he could go a very long ways. OUDACUS is pretty ********.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Lucas is funny to me.

Because he'll be hitting you like 8 times, then you look down and you've only taken like 52%

 

[Mithost]

Lucas will probably shine later on in the metagame. He has his faults and he isn't a pick-up-and-play character like bowser, but everything is there for him to do well in P:M.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I knew you wouldn't play him 4real because he sucks

He's also one of the characters I really felt the input lag fix made harder to move smoothly with, which entirely killed him for me to play since I'm all about that.
Maybe the master of smooth Naerok would agree, if he was anywhere to be seen past 2.1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IAYdItVgo3E#t=361s

Not sure if you're kidding, but, GP, a player from the same area, has a noticeably better Lucas than Naerok...

 

[Burnsy]

He's also one of the characters I really felt the input lag fix made harder to move smoothly with, which entirely killed him for me to play since I'm all about that.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but how exactly would the input lag fix make controlling Lucas smoothly any more difficult? If anything it should have improved things, once you get used to it.

 

[OkamiBW]

So Wobbles has convinced me that GnW is not a bad character by 3-0, 3-0'ing me in Winners and Grand Finals of a mini-tourney we did. Contrast that to me going even with his Mario. Atm thinking he's number 20-ish or so. Landing with bacon is really good.

 

[Mithost]

Do you have any videos? I want to see G&W do good but I've never been able to find him playing on the same level as other characters.

 

[metroid1117]

So Wobbles has convinced me that GnW is not a bad character by 3-0, 3-0'ing me in Winners and Grand Finals of a mini-tourney we did. Contrast that to me going even with his Mario. Atm thinking he's number 20-ish or so. Landing with bacon is really good.

Wobbles is such a beast. <3

 

[Jolteon]

So Wobbles has convinced me that GnW is not a bad character by 3-0, 3-0'ing me in Winners and Grand Finals of a mini-tourney we did. Contrast that to me going even with his Mario. Atm thinking he's number 20-ish or so. Landing with bacon is really good.

I think G&W is good, too. Do you have videos?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Are you sure it's not just you not knowing how to fight GW?

Like, he's a pretty bad character, but that doesn't mean he's a joke. You can't just roll over on him. I used to get wrecked by GW, and then I figured out what I was doing wrong.

I could believe he's better than Squirtle though.

 

[BTmoney]

Are you sure it's not just you not knowing how to fight GW?

Like, he's a pretty bad character, but that doesn't mean he's a joke. You can't just roll over on him. I used to get wrecked by GW, and then I figured out what I was doing wrong.

I could believe he's better than Squirtle though.

What's the argument for him being bad in PM?
He is very strong in neutral with his fair and dtilt. Fair is so good.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

How are those good neutral options?

Those are good options for boxing out an incoming opponent, but how does he approach? Fair will get you shieldgrabbed by most of the cast. All he's got for approach is that double bacon short hop, and it's not the most reliable thing in the world.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

F-Air will not get you shieldgrabbed if you're not bad at spacing.

 

[Jolteon]

Yeah, fair can be spaced on shield. I find that fair and dtilt are reliable approach options.

Maybe I should upload some videos of g&w. :v

 

[Deleted member]

i don't think fair is good in neutral, the ground speed for most of the cast is too good in this game to lose to a dedicated aerial (marth has this same problem to a lesser extent).

good GAW in this game is similar to melee zelda where you spend most of the match dancing around hoping that your opponent will attack you favorably because approaching a good opponent simply isn't going to work. obviously he's not melee zelda bad from neutral but no character in this game is.

 

[Jolteon]

I think that you can say the same for most aerials. From my experience it's bad when they have a decent portion of the stage to work with, where ground movement beats it outright, and fine otherwise. I also think its hard to compare it to Marth's aerials since it has a lingering hitbox, and Marth's aerials don't stay out for very long.

imo nearly every character in this game is "good". I think it depends on what you're relating "good" to though, so many characters in Melee are abysmal and I don't think g&w's traits are nearly as bad as that.

 

[Bryonato]

Yes. To be honest I don't think anyone in this game is truly awful. I think if you look at gap between what is considered best and worst it is much, MUCH smaller than Melee or Brawl, especially with the Meta in the state that it is.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Anyone can win in Project M, but not all characters are created equal.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I would argue that thinking any character can win/be tournament-viable is a good indicator of someone who has a poor understanding of how Smash works. There are plenty of characters that can't win, mostly because many of the same imbalances exist as they did in Melee. While the bottom end has been brought upward, things like the disparities of mobility, speed, and commitment between characters prevent some characters from being realistically viable in 1v1. Until those are normalized (or until other traits, like general risk/reward, are made REALLY extreme for the "bad" characters), that's not going to change. It's not inherently Melee-like, but so far, it's inherently Smash-like.

 

[Juushichi]

I believe good and great players can make Game and Watch look like an almost middle-of-the-road to a "good" character, but I'm not sure if anyone would be crazy enough to solo through a stacked tournament with him and come out as successful as a regional powerhouse would (13th+ at a "national") once the metagame develops.

This is assuming that v2.5 Game and Watch was the finalized version of the character in P:M Gold edition.

Though, to be fair... I'm not sure how many different characters would be capable of this feat. GnW would have to navigate a fair amount of his disadvantaged matchups though, looking at it from who is popular now. God forbid he runs into one of the Links or a good Marth early...

 

[Rat]

Tentative Demo 3.0 Tierlist!
Sneak Peak

Spoiler

SSS Tier:
Metaknight
Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff

SS Tier:
DiddyKong, Shiek, Snake, ToonLink
Pit, Luigi, Pikachu

S Tier:
Peach, C. Falcon, Lucas
Wolf, Ivysaur, ROB

Top Tier:
Bowser, Mario, Marth
Ganondorf, Wario, Link, Dedede

Still Not 2.1 Tier:
Lucario, Sonic, Ike

Garbage Tier:
GW, Ness, Squirtle, ZSS

Below Garbage Tier:
Pichu

Discuss

 

[SpiderMad]

Not sure if you're kidding, but, GP, a player from the same area, has a noticeably better Lucas than Naerok...

Naerok kept saying that himself, do u have recent video of him? Like I said though smooth movement/flashyness doesn't translate into ability to win necessarily: I just think he's the best at it.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but how exactly would the input lag fix make controlling Lucas smoothly any more difficult? If anything it should have improved things, once you get used to it.

It functioned sort of like buffer, but would carry out the move later so you could predetermined the action in advanced like dropping through a platform after a waveland and it would be carried out from an early input which would give you more time to input a move after you dropped. It doesn't make much sense when you view it just as a sort of lag: but it's still a mystery exactly how it functions and fluctuates and I believe e it had mysterious beneficial stuff. It also worked well with normal buffer in concept that the actions would be inputted early but the move after them would be buffered making your early inputted action after ur previously inputted action frame perfect . I also know it was the input lag fix that ruined Lucas because I tested 2.5 with and without the code since magus made it public for me to search and strip it from the gct

 

[Oro?!]

ZSS is confirmed garbage tier in 3.0. I will be switching mains.

 

[Strong Badam]

I knew you wouldn't play him 4real because he sucks

He's also one of the characters I really felt the input lag fix made harder to move smoothly with, which entirely killed him for me to play since I'm all about that.
Maybe the master of smooth Naerok would agree, if he was anywhere to be seen past 2.1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IAYdItVgo3E#t=361s

the input lag fix made him HARDER to play smoothly with?

do you even have any idea what you're talking about? LOL

 

[SpiderMad]

How do you want me to prove it? We can have a smooth off, and I would win it with the lag added back.

You guys might have not noticed it because you were using the inferior air dodge, which severs the amount of wavedashes you can implement into your movement/platform game.

I still can't get waveland onto platform into platform drop up-air with Ike down to the frame perfectness I did with the input lag. I either have to delay the up-air so it comes out later after I've already dropped, or I do it too soon and it always does an Up-smash after the waveland instead of dropping and doing an up-air. The input lag almost allowed me to input my drop and up-air while I was still in the waveland animation and it wouldn't turn into an Up-smash.
Like this but even more better usually http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_4Ka54zALY0#t=62s

I'll have more video to back up my stuff eventually, though some of it is so simple it's hard to even portray: like the light press air dodge. Just record the game of me wavedashing all smoothly over the place while the side cam captures my finger barely having to move. Then do some wavedash OOS cus some ppl say it's hard to with it when it's not.

 

[Jolteon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5vlYYqnXVo

 

[Kink-Link5]

Madisa insinuates that other players are using an inferior airdodge while insisting on an inferior Lucas being more comfortable to control.

 

[OkamiBW]

@GnWDisc - Wobbles would approach with a lot of neutral B things.

You'll have to ask Tai for the videos. (Tee ay eye on the boards)

 

[Juushichi]

o___O

And you RESPECTED that?

I mean, I know Wobbles has great spacing but c'mon. Excuse my suspension of belief, but I'll really have to see some videos or something.

 

[Rat]

Yo I got beat by this one asian guy who was playing as monkey. I think his name was Ken or Sephiroth. He was all "gg no re" so there's no video.

Monkey for top tier.

 

[OkamiBW]

I tried all sorts of things.

Here you are:
http://smashboards.com/members/tee-ay-eye.117385/

 

[zman804]

I saw Wobble's GnW. The Bacon set up looked really safe

 

[Aenglaan]

Am I the only one who feels that Jiggilypuff is no where as good as she was in Melee? I feel that just like C. Falcon, she faces a lot more threats, and has a harder time preforming well.

 

[Bryonato]

I believe that is the general consensus.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is the case for Jiggs, Falcon and Marth it would seem. For one reason or another. Peach I hear does fantastic in this game still.

 

[Bryonato]

Fortunately for Falcon though he got a few small buffs that have helped him retain his dominance. I wouldn't be so quick to place him in that group.

 

[Translucent]

I thought that Marth is still supposedly top 4, and wasn't really affected by any new characters. What new characters can give him a hard time?