Tier List Speculation

[TheReflexWonder]

I know that when I think "perfection" in terms of effectiveness behind Melee mechanics, I'm thinking 0-death stuff from a Fox or Sheik.

 

[Overswarm]

dafuq overswarm.

Let me try and speak your language.
perfection!=0-death
perfection in this case = hyperbole to mean fantastically, with great adeptness, and relative strength compared to much of the cast.

Wait, so you use hyperbole to describe Ness and then shake your finger at me for using hyperbole when I'm really just using what you've already stated?

"Perfection" is a word that has a very different meaning then "fantastically" or "adept" or "strength". The first clue is that it's a completely different word. I don't play Ness and I'm using your statements in the discussion. Don't exaggerate and then be surprised when your exaggerations are used in the discussion.

 

[The_NZA]

Fine, I dont give a **** about e-pen, and linguistic machismo. Let's just actually have a discussion.

I ammend

Given his recovery and lack of range are already huge negatives, I don't see why Ness doesn't deserve better aerial mobility. I think of him as a fighter jet and I think part of his design lends him to be the insanely intelligent aerial combo machine. Perfectly execute your jumps, djc, and aerial magnets, and you should be able to juggle your opponent with perfection. Having the ability to "get In" could only flesh out his tool set.​

to read as​

Given his recovery and lack of range are already huge negatives, I don't see why Ness doesn't deserve better aerial mobility. I think of him as a fighter jet and I think part of his design lends him to be the insanely intelligent aerial combo machine. Perfectly execute your jumps, djc, and aerial magnets, and you should be able to juggle your opponent with great skill. Having the ability to "get In" could only flesh out his tool set.​

​

 

[leelue]

No way GaW is bottom. Bushleague. Shananigans.

Necro'd to disagree and laugh in your face
Unless you're talking about something like... idk squirtmcgirt

 

[ELI-mination]

go to class, leelue

 

[leelue]

I had a midterm so I got out an hour and a half early. Next midterm isn't until 6:30. So I'm, uh, studying.

Good jiggly is lame lol.
.

Personally, I find her overall design to be stupid, boring, dangerous, and evil.

On a more related note, I think DDD is superior to Game&watch. Boohoo recovery, just grab the opponent and win.

 

[JOE!]

Jiggs as a character is basically her B/Fair and Rest... then multi-jumps/anti-combo mechanics.

I know there's more to it than that but that is like 75% of her "goodness" right there.

 

[Overswarm]

Jiggs is good or at least was because she had incredibly large hitboxes away from her hurtboxes and could use those in an aerial fashion in an incredibly well structured way. In short, she made you play her game and she was better at it.

 

[BTmoney]

G&W is solid. His fair has stupid priority and it is all he needs to approach, it's even more disjointed and stays out longer than it looks. He has legit nair combos as well. Nair has a huge painful hitbox and is a fantastic kill move. Did I mention nair?
Dtilt is about as effective as Marth's dtilt if not more. It's also another approaching option with huge priority.
He has a good grab game and they are hard to respond to correctly because they all look exactly the same.
Half of the random hammer number pulls are ridiculous as well and I can even argue that move is broken.
His shield is also fixed, his aerials are fixed, and he has an improved OoS game.

I feel like people just speculate without playing him or agaisnt him.
His issues are his rolls, tech rolls, and difficulty sweet spotting the ledge. His normals are actually good.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How good is the punish game with G&W? If I recall, his moves are mostly for one shots for pushing people away. There is not too much 0% to death ability with him on most characters.

 

[BTmoney]

I personally cannot tell you because I play against G&W and not G&W.

Somethings I can think of off the top of my head

• dthrow tech chase into regrab or hammer or dtilt
• dropzone nair is extremely gay if your opponent tries to go to the ledge
• dtilt->fair
• dtilt->nair
• uptilt ->nair
• fair combos into itself Marth-esque
• whatever throw combos into nair also combos into normals against fast fallers
• he can also dip quite low and decently far away from the stage to gimp because his up B is a little crazy

He certainly isn't a 0 death type character. You shouldn't get hit probably more than 3 times ever unless you DI his fair combos in. Think of like basic sheik combos. Dthrow, ftilt, fair. He plays kind of like that.

 

[Kink-Link5]

How good is the punish game with G&W? If I recall, his moves are mostly for one shots for pushing people away. There is not too much 0% to death ability with him on most characters.

Grabs seem to combo consistently into any aerial follow up for all percents that matter. He lost his Melee CG and got the crappy Brawl D-throw, but his F- and B- throws seem to have a lower knockback and faster endlag or something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In both Brawl and PM, you can do a "slow run" by sliding your Analog Stick to a 45-degree angle toward the ground while running. While doing this, you will not run off the edge of a platform or stage, and you'll seem to run in place.

Normally, when you do an attack on the edge during your slow run, you'll get a Dash Attack and slide off afterward. However, pressing the C-Stick forward will make you slide off and do an immediate fastfall Forward-Air.

http://youtu.be/Xy-cQ0s0Bbw

If you have an item in your hands, you'll slide off and do an immediate fastfall item Smash throw forward. This gives you a new angle for potential edgeguarding via items.

This is potentially useful in a number of ways. Because you can stay in slow run as long as you like, timing the attack perfectly is trivial. Also, because of the instant fastfall, it can get you a F-Air at a height/angle that would otherwise be close to impossible to manage, which can catch certain recoveries and ledge sweetspots quite well. We may see an improvement in the general punishment of low recoveries, which people would probably appreciate.

Characters that can instant fastfall F-Air and return safely to the stage without the need of a specific stage:
Everyone (with an item in hand)
Wario
Luigi
Zelda
Toon Link (requires either a walljump or excellent timing)
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Pit
Marth
Lucas (requires excellent timing on Yoshi's Story)
Ness (requires excellent timing on Yoshi's Story)
R.O.B.

Characters that can make it back on stages not named Yoshi's Story:
Diddy Kong (requires excellent timing on Battlefield)
Ganondorf (requires excellent timing)
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus (requires excellent timing on Battlefield)
Sheik
Charizard
Mr. Game and Watch
Snake
Sonic

Characters that can make it back on stages not named Yoshi's Story or Battlefield:
Mario (via walljump)
Pikachu

Characters that can only make it back on stages with large bottoms, like Final Destination:
King Dedede

Characters that cannot do it without dying or being hit back up by an opponent:
Bowser
Peach
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon
Fox
Falco
Link
Ike

 

[Juushichi]

I personally cannot tell you because I play against G&W and not G&W.

Somethings I can think of off the top of my head

• dthrow tech chase into regrab or hammer or dtilt
• dropzone nair is extremely gay if your opponent tries to go to the ledge
• dtilt->fair
• dtilt->nair
• uptilt ->nair
• fair combos into itself Marth-esque
• whatever throw combos into nair also combos into normals against fast fallers
• he can also dip quite low and decently far away from the stage to gimp because his up B is a little crazy

He certainly isn't a 0 death type character. You shouldn't get hit probably more than 3 times ever unless you DI his fair combos in. Think of like basic sheik combos. Dthrow, ftilt, fair. He plays kind of like that.

Dthrow kinda? Your other throws are probably better if you want some sort of follow up.

Dtilt seems a bit more... I dunno, single hit up and away -> positioning because he's kinda slow to get up there short of up-B. But if you hit someone with dtilt->up-B... great! Utilt is great when you hit it, though fair's ability to chain into itself has been hurt a lot compared to Melee.

I know you play primarily exclusively against Hanky's 'Watch. You should play mine sometime. I remember teaching him some stuff the last time I played him with it, since I main it and he just plays him for fun.

 

[BTmoney]

Dthrow kinda? Your other throws are probably better if you want some sort of follow up.

Dtilt seems a bit more... I dunno, single hit up and away -> positioning because he's kinda slow to get up there short of up-B. But if you hit someone with dtilt->up-B... great! Utilt is great when you hit it, though fair's ability to chain into itself has been hurt a lot compared to Melee.

I know you play primarily exclusively against Hanky's 'Watch. You should play mine sometime. I remember teaching him some stuff the last time I played him with it, since I main it and he just plays him for fun.

You coming to campus toady? I don't think I'll play though because I've been getting manhandled all week and I want a break lol.

And yeah, you're probably more right than I am lol. But dthrow->reset *****. Especially if you mix up your throws.

 

[DMG]

G&W didn't lose his CG from Melee, he can still do it on the appropriate characters although I'm not sure exactly how different the %'s are from Melee since Uthrow and Dthrow worked better on different characters.

 

[Oracle]

g&w has an incredible punish game if you're good at comboing with up b

 

[Juushichi]

You coming to campus toady? I don't think I'll play though because I've been getting manhandled all week and I want a break lol.

And yeah, you're probably more right than I am lol. But dthrow->reset *****. Especially if you mix up your throws.

Nope, because it's too cumbersome for me to leave OSU to go home and you jerks play too late. I live about 20 min away from OSU if you drive, but I don't so it takes much longer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A little Squirtle for you--

http://smashboards.com/threads/squirtle-in-the-neutral-position-a-primer.335165/

 

[metroid1117]

Grabs seem to combo consistently into any aerial follow up for all percents that matter. [G&W] lost his Melee CG and got the crappy Brawl D-throw, but his F- and B- throws seem to have a lower knockback and faster endlag or something.

IMO his DThrow is bad in the sense that, as an individual throw, he has no guaranteed profit every time he uses it. However, it's amazing as a mix-up, especially on fastfallers. Because the game doesn't allow you to tech when you fail to tech within 20 frames after inputting it (which is why a some people miss techs after getting hit while shffl'ing), you can condition fastfallers to tech for either the UThrow or the DThrow, then switch whatever throw you use. Assuming they've been conditioned enough, they will miss the tech when you switch, giving you a free punish (jab reset, FSmash, USmash, DTilt, etc.). You can do a similar trap on floaty opponents if you know that they will have to land on a platform from the UThrow; teching for the platform after UThrow will cause them to miss the tech forced by DThrow, and teching for the tech forced by DThrow will cause them to miss the tech for the platform after UThrow. Even if your opponent has no option to tech except for the DThrow (like if they're a floaty character and there are no platforms around them), it's still useful if you read their DI; nobody is going to DI up on the UThrow because that allows G&W to easily follow with a NAir, so people are generally going to techroll away or in. Both options can be covered either by a shffl' FAir or, if the opponent has a crappy tech roll, techroll in allows G&W to DSmash. If the opponent has nowhere to go, like on a platform or by an edge, G&W can DSmash to cover both options (again, if the opponent has a crappy tech).

Honestly, I think a lot of people are sleeping on G&W and, myself included, don't fully understand what he's capable of.

 

[Oro?!]

ZSS/GnW top tier because I said so.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It may have mix-up potential but it is worse in almost all aspects than his Melee D-throw, and certainly worse than non-forced tech throws like Falcon's, Marth's, Sheik's, etc. Fox, Flaco, Zard, and Game and Watch collectively have the worse D-throws in the game, and which one is slightly not as bad as the others is dictated solely by the lag after the throw. Charizard seems to have the most endlag, while GFF have about the same.

Charizard hardly gets away with it for having a move that covers 7/10 teching options, and they're all still substantially worse than the throws that flop the opponent around and allow for easily read tech chases on good DI, and automatic combos on bad DI. You'll be hard pressed to convince me that Game and Watch's D-throw is anything if not the second worst in the game.

I'm also calling bull**** that Charizard has the most range on his grab of non-tethers. He has large grab boxes that have no disjoint from his nearest hurtbox. You'd have to be judging range solely on how far away from a starting position a character can grab for it to have any significant range, which comes with the same implication that Fox's Side-B has good range. Yeah, definitely calling BS on this. His grabboxes are the largest, but most of their coverage is inside of Charizard, compared to say, Marth's magnet hands.

[collapse=Disjoint from nearest hurtboxes]

[/collapse]

Even when looking strictly at how far away the characters can grab, it is almost identical.

[collapse=Standing grab range+character transition from TopN]

[/collapse]

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was told that G&W U-Throw is essentially everything you could want out of Melee G&W D-Throw and more.

 

[MonkUnit]

10 tech options? theres only 4 options that you should consider directly out of fox/falco/zard dthrow and thats tech roll left, tech roll right, tech in place, and no tech. howd you get 10

 

[Scythe]

well there's no tech, no tech get up attack, no tech plain get up, no tech roll left and no tech roll right

 

[TheReflexWonder]

They all fall under the same category as "no tech," as if you're gonna get punished for "no tech", the other parts don't ever happen.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Covers whatever teching option 7 times out of 10

Better?

You won't always be punished for not teching, especially by D-smash. The move only has a few active frames and all non-tech getup options have a degree of invincibility. It's a bit more dynamic than just
"punish when they don't tech," since the options to do so are not universally the same as the ones to punish a tech. You can guess they won't tech and mistime a move when they tech, you can guess they will tech and try to chase it only for them to not tech and cause an at most 11-frame late reaction.

Punishing a not tech means you have to already assume they won't tech, and punishing a tech means you have to already assume they will, as well as what direction they'll do it in. Otherwise you can go the "safe" route and do a slightly delayed D-smash and succeed against mostly anything but a quick getup attack or a delayed standup.

There's more of a variable nature to the process than just punish this tech with this option.

I was told that G&W U-Throw is essentially everything you could want out of Melee G&W D-Throw and more.

Minus the good launch point, they're similar-ish.

 

[Juushichi]

That good launch point is very significant though, Reflex.

Obviously you can adjust to it if you play the character enough, but the differences add up. That's why j00t does not play this character.

 

[DMG]

Important news about G^W: I discovered a visual indicator (technically 2-3 indicators, but 1 isn't practical) that tells you whether he is doing Uthrow or Dthrow! Dunno if anyone else noticed it or not, but was interested due to all of this G^W talk so I looked a bit closer:

Uthrow and Dthrow share the same "rough" juggle pattern. Whatever direction you grab someone, they start in the front and juggle to the hand behind G^W right? During each "beep" you hear of the throw, the person moves towards that hand just like the balls he juggles. However, if you pay attention closely near the end, his hands swing differently based on what throw he is going to do.

The hands have 3 locations/options basically. Left leaning, neutral, right leaning. When you start off throwing someone (maybe regardless of throw), his hands start off in neutral and the person is crunched into ball form in the starting hand. As the beeps go on, his hands in tandem swing with each other because I guess he's also juggling the other balls as well as the person. The pattern starts at neutral first, and then for the first beep the hands sway like this: Grabbing/Original hand sways towards G&W, the other hand sways away from G^W's body. So basically the first hand is at his chest or whatever, and the other hand is outreached. On the next beep, the hands go back to neutral and the person travels along the arc. The third beep is where they are different: If you Uthrow, the hands remain in the neutral option. Also (and this is very minor), at the end of the throw you see the hand kinda toss or flip the person upward. This doesn't happen with Dthrow, but this occurs so late into the throw that it's barely worth mentioning.

If you Dthrow however, the hands sway from Neutral to the opposite direction. The first grabbing hand is now super stretched out, and the hand behind G^W is close to his back as if he's purposefully dropping the juggle and letting you slam to the ground. This animation change happens right when you hear the third beep, not when the throw actually occurs. Because of this, if you are attentive and look closely/background and camera don't mess with you, you can tell which throw he is going to do.

Technically, another indicator is if you look at the ball in relation to the empty hand. If you Uthrow, the ball looks like it reaches the fingertips of G^W when it falls to the other side, almost out of his reach even. If you do Dthrow, his hand sways out further and it looks like he is going to firmly catch it in his palm/more hand coverage. This happens the same time as the other indicator, so use whatever works for you.

(Apparently already known, ****) (Brawl poo poo heads it's the same flargagr)

Edit: Found another one. G&W's Feet (Yes his feet) have a different animation for Uthrow and Dthrow. If you do Uthrow, on the third beep both of his feet are planted on the ground firmly. If you do Dthrow, he lifts a leg up. You're all welcome.

Edit 2: His feet also give away whether you are doing Fthrow or Bthrow. Bthrow interestingly enough is the only throw that starts with his back leg raised first. All other throws use the forward leg. Fthrow uses the front leg, but also juggles the person to the front which is different than the other throws. I think basically... you can tell whatever throw G^W is going to do period if you look at a few things.

 

[Metmetm3t]

When I get a grab with G&W I expect my opponent to eat hela damage, and I'm rarely disappointed.

edit: @dmg since the animations are the same as they were in Brawl it's been known for a long time. His feet also move differently depending on the throw. The problem is it's hard to focus and react to the indicators even when you know them.

 

[DMG]

It's really the same as Brawl? Wat. Lame.

Still, they can give away the throw pretty early. Bthrow and Fthrow are both given away on basically the first beep/real early. Uthrow and Dthrow it's later, but basically you only have to do the check for Dthrow so that you can tech. If you quickly check that it's not Dthrow, you're free to go (although not free to still get hit or CG'd obv). Dthrow you have both the hand, the feet, and the ball to let you know. I think that's significant enough. This would only be really duper hard on the lightest of characters: Jiggs is given very little time to react to this since the throw goes at the speed of light. It's great for anyone heavier though if you're looking to know what trap awaits you.

 

[Scythe]

if you get grabbed by gaw you should try to tech everytime, no need to read if it's down throw.

 

[Plum]

That's fine on not fastfallers, but if you are a fastfaller, and tech as if you were being Dthrowed, and they Uthrow, you then miss the Uthrow tech because you can't tech for a certain window after attempting to tech. Same can be said with other characters when a platform above is present.

 

[Kink-Link5]

U-throw should have more than enough airtime to accommodate the 20?-frame techfail window.

 

[metroid1117]

U-throw should have more than enough airtime to accommodate the 20?-frame techfail window.

It's 40 frames after the initial 20 frame teching window in Melee, so it's probably the same in PM. In any case, the techfail window is large enough to prevent fastfallers from teching out of UThrow when expecting DThrow at low %s. I'm pretty sure it's the same when you're throwing someone onto a platform, but I've confirmed the fastfaller trap with Nap before.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If I'm understanding this, it is still a 20+ frame air time which should be enough, under the pretence that:

You are inputting the tech for D-throw toward the earlier end of the tech window
So if a tech is possible up to 20 frames later (It will be for D-throw), it will automatically tech
If a tech is not possible within those 20 frames, then within the 20 frame tech window, and then after it, there is an additional 20 frames where a tech may not be input or it will fail, aka, a 40 frame tech fail window.

So you input tech for D-throw 20 frames early assuming best case scenario theorycraft nonsense inhuman perfection, you don't tech because it's a U-throw instead, you wait, and tech input late into the U-throw tumble, and it should be accepted.

If that made any sense. If I had the means to, I'd do a frame advance test to confirm if it's possible.

 

[metroid1117]

If I'm understanding this, it is still a 20+ frame air time which should be enough, under the pretence that:

You are inputting the tech for D-throw toward the earlier end of the tech window
So if a tech is possible up to 20 frames later (It will be for D-throw), it will automatically tech
If a tech is not possible within those 20 frames, then within the 20 frame tech window, and then after it, there is an additional 20 frames where a tech may not be input or it will fail, aka, a 40 frame tech fail window.

So you input tech for D-throw 20 frames early assuming best case scenario theorycraft nonsense inhuman perfection, you don't tech because it's a U-throw instead, you wait, and tech input late into the U-throw tumble, and it should be accepted.

If that made any sense. If I had the means to, I'd do a frame advance test to confirm if it's possible.

If the techfail window were 20 frames as outlined in the above scenario, that would probably be true. However, the techfail window is 40 frames such that if you fail to tech 20 frames after inputting a tech, you will not be able to tech for the next 40 frames (making the entire cycle last a full second). At low %s, it feels like spacies are not in the air for 40 frames after G&W UThrows them; this means that even if they teched for DThrow at the earliest moment possible, they would miss the tech on the UThrow because the 40 frame techfail window has not passed yet.

 

[Badge]

Kink's calculations are correct for he is assuming you're teching for the first time nearly 20 frames before getting thrown and for the second time a bit above 20 frames after getting thrown, thus circumventing the 40 frames tech fail window for two tech opportunities that are more than 20 frames apart. Fox at 0% hits the ground from UpThrow 24 frames after he would tech a DThrow, so it does work theoretically. The only question is, whether it's easier to time your two tech inputs within a combined window of 4 frames or to look for the visual clues on whether to tech or not. The latter also allows for deciding on your DThrow-tech option independent of UpThrow DI choices, which otherwise doesn't work at any percent.

Edit: I think I misunderstood you. The 40 frame fail window starts after the tech input, not at the end of the 20 frame tech window, that's why Kink's method works and it doesn't need to be 60 frames difference.

 

[metroid1117]

EDIT: Ignore this post.

Kink's calculations are correct for he is assuming you're teching for the first time nearly 20 frames before getting thrown and for the second time a bit above 20 frames after getting thrown, thus circumventing the 40 frames tech fail window for two tech opportunities that are more than 20 frames apart. Fox at 0% hits the ground from UpThrow 24 frames after he would tech a DThrow, so it does work theoretically. The only question is, whether it's easier to time your two tech inputs within a combined window of 4 frames or to look for the visual clues on whether to tech or not. The latter also allows for deciding on your DThrow-tech option independent of UpThrow DI choices, which otherwise doesn't work at any percent.

I think we have a different understanding in how the techfail window works. Assuming that the techfail window works the same in Melee as in PM, Doraki's Thread states the following:

In order to tech, you have to get a precise timing and not resort to button mashing.
Whenever you press L, it enables you to tech in the 20 following frames, but it also prevents you completely from using L to tech again in the following 40 frames.

It's not obvious, but it's very important when you're being comboed.
Has it ever happened to you, when you're being comboed, that you missed a tech even though you pressed L at the right time?
This is the reason it didn't work. You had pressed L earlier and you didn't wait enough time before pressing L again to tech.
Note that if this happens, you can keep missing techs.

The Official FAQ and QnA Thread in the Melee boards say this on teching:

When Can I tech?
You can tech within 20 frames of hitting the ground, and then you can’t try for another 40.

Both of these sources say that if you input a tech and do not come in contact with a surface for 20 frames after the tech input, you cannot tech for the following 40 frames. However, this also means that if you input a second tech within the 40 frame window after failing to tech in the first 20 frames, that tech will not register at all. (I'm not sure whether or not the second failed tech will trigger another 40 frame techfail window, but that's beside the point.)

This means that fastfallers will not be able to tech G&W's UThrow at low %s if they teched for the DThrow, even with frame-perfect timing and inputting the tech such that they tech at the very last frame of the 20-frame tech window. Like you said, Fox is in the air for 24 frames at 0% after an UThrow - because he did not touch a surface 20 frames after the tech input (which was for DThrow), he will not be able to tech for the next 40 frames. Because he's in the air for only 24 frames, he will not be able to tech when he hits the ground.

This is, however, assuming that tech windows work the same way in PM as they did in Melee. If anyone has a source suggesting otherwise, feel free to post it.

In case anyone's curious, here are some teching rules that Magus posted a couple years ago.

- When you press L/R to tech you will tech if you collide with a surface for the next 20 frames, and be unable to tech for the following 40 after that.

- You can't press L/R to tech during hitlag.

- ASDI occurs directly after hitlag, so if you rely on ASDI to tech then your window to time the tech will be 20 minus the hitlag of the attack, and you should press it before you get hit.

- The movement from ASDI is combined with the 1st frame of knockback from the attack, so if the attack is strong enough the movement towards the surface from ASDI will not be enough to make up for the movement away from it from knockback and you won't collide with it and will be unable to tech.

- With SDI, however, you can edgetech any techable attack (has enough knockback to put you into a tumble) at any damage as long as you're within SDIable distance from it when you get hit, since SDI happens during hitlag and is before you are sent anywhere from the attack.

- Since you can SDI and hit the surface at any point during hitlag, the window to tech with SDI is much better than relying on ASDI where the full amount of the hitlag will always be removed from the 20 frame window.

- The more hitlag the attack has the easier SDI teching will be (larger window to input the SDI) and the timing for teching using ASDI becomes harder (smaller window before hitlag to time the tech), while the less hitlag an attack has the harder SDIing becomes and easier ASDI becomes. Again though, if the attack has enough knockback or you are not close enough to the stage it doesn't matter since ASDI will be unable to do the job and you will need to SDI.

- Not all characters can hit the stage as easily as others when riding the wall. Ganon/Falcon's up-Bs for example push them away from the wall when they flip near the end of it and the up-B isn't reversed. While they may be able to edgetech an attack at a certain percent with ASDI when hit partway through the up-B when hugging the wall, they might not be able to if they were to instead get hit near the end of the up-B. In this case you would need to SDI to hit the stage.

- As long as you can maintain good normal DI right afterwards in case you don't get the tech, you should really always try to get the SDI off before you do.

 

[Plum]

At least according to the Smash wiki, Brawl uses the same 40 frame window.