Tier List Speculation

[skellitorman]

Haven't heard any ideas on pikmin, that are even decent.

What is wrong with my idea?

 

[didds]

So have people tried to make any tier lists on their own for this game? I've only seen one which, which looked kinda off tbh, was wondering if there was any others.

let's see yours, not trying to be snappy, im just bored

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What is wrong with my idea?

It's bad because people would only use purple and blue pikmin, as they are clearly better than the rest. Purple have the most kb, and are the better of the pikmin when thrown. Blues have a uthrow that kills and have/better chain grabs than the rest. No one would ever use a red pikmin since, it's the weaker version of purple and white really isn't that great before it hits the flower stage. Yellow atm is trash. If you wanna know about that, check the Olimar section.

 

[skellitorman]

It's bad because people would only use purple and blue pikmin, as they are clearly better than the rest. Purple have the most kb, and are the better of the pikmin when thrown. Blues have a uthrow that kills and have/better chain grabs than the rest. No one would ever use a red pikmin since, it's the weaker version of purple and white really isn't that great before it hits the flower stage. Yellow atm is trash. If you wanna know about that, check the Olimar section.

I said that there would be a restriction to 1 color per pikmin, so Olimar would only be able to use 1 purple and 1 blue. Furthermore, if purple and blues are that much better than the others, then the balance between each color should be addressed. Once the RNG problem is dealt with, then balancing out the colors could easily be done afterwards.

I also don't see why there needs to be such variance on normals anyways. No other character has such variance in their normals either (except for Peach's forward smash, as far as I know). Special attacks are more understandable, but I personally prefer to have reliability when it comes to normal attacks (aerials/ grabs/ smash attacks).

Even if others don't think this way, dealing with RNG effectively, and then dealing with the balance between colors is an effective way to deal with Olimar's problem.

 

[Phan7om]

Ive been telling people, just make the colors balanced. To the point where you can still be "good" if you dont have a Purple or Blue.

 

[yttik]

let's see yours, not trying to be snappy, im just bored

Just the CT one I'm sure you've seen it
http://clashtournaments.com/project-m-3-02-preliminary-tier-list/
I'm pretty new to PM, it looks quite balanced to me i'm just curious on who is considered bad.

 

[didds]

the universally considered bad characters are usually ganon and jiggs, maybe luigi.
a lot of people have oli, yoshi, and tink as bad, but that's usually just lack of knowledge.

a lot of it comes down to what people see or what characters are popular in the region.

 

[yttik]

Ah alright, thanks
I always thought TL was pretty good, even if I hate playing as him

 

[steelguttey]

wow
You actually can grasp that concept now? I was getting tired of you saying, some of those complex thoughts of yours, wouldn't be hard to do, with no knowledge on programming, what so ever.

never ever ever said that they wouldnt be hard i said that they can be possible

The cycle thing makes no sense to me. Is it like a slot machine or something?

the light on your antenna goes

dim yellow, dim red, dim blue, dim white, dim purple, normal yellow, normal red, normal blue, normal white, normal purple, bright yellow, bright red, bright blue, bright white, bright purple. pluck when its dim, you uget a leaf version of that color, pluck when its normal, you get a bud version of that color, pluck when its bright, get a flower version. to prevent stalling it would be cool if the light changed brightness the more you hit people with pikmin attacks

Haven't heard any ideas on pikmin, that are even decent.

then why dont you come up with some yourself instead of making fun of my ideas when im at least trying? you ahve made no decent argument for a set order of pikmin and the only arguments youve made are about how **** my ideas are so why dont you try

 

[Player -0]

TL is good, Yoshi is very likely good but there are "no" players, Luigi is probably like mid to low mid?

I'd reserve bot for mainly characters that CAN'T win a tournament by themselves, or the likeliness is realllyyy low. The only characters in this section being pretty much Ganon and Jiggz.

@ yttik There's some discussion on some tier lists people have thought about 3-4 pages back.

 

[leekslap]

I can say for a fact the top 5 worst:

5. Ganon
Pros:
- most powerful moves in the game
- meaty hitboxes
- great mixups in down b and side b
- kinda decent recovery if you take into account his down b jump renewal thing and up b end punch
- godlike aerials with surprisingly low lag
- amazing throws
- very easy and probably most fun character to play
- strongest punishes in the game
- heavy
Cons
- slower than slow
- projectiles are his kryptonite
- incredibly easy to gimp
- useless neutral b unless you are the most stylish person on the planet
- crappy mobility
- has to mindgame to even get a hit
- pathetic grab range
- bad OoS options
- combo food
- really bad MUs overall
4. Luigi
Pros
- very easy to break out of combos cuz of his floatyness
- longest wavedash in the game
- fast aerials
- a lot of mileage on his recovery
- good power
- good mobilty with wavedash and down b
- versatile projectile
- up b
- really weird compared to the rest of the cast
- very small chance your opponent will know the MU
Cons
- easy to kill
- terrible aerial mobility
- slow and predictable recovery
- very underdeveloped metagame ( as in, very few players )
- techskill required just to move
- average moveset
- his strengths, for the most part, aren't really anything special
- mid tier from Melee barely changed
- bad MU spread


3. Ice Climbers
Pros
- hammers
- very manly
- eat drunk bears
- pink walruses
- they are super used and easy to pick up
- I totally know this character
Cons
- potatoes


1. Jigglypuff
- good aerials
- really hard to combo
- rest
- good at gimping
- godlike DI
- forces you to play her game
- decent mixups
- good recovery
- grabs can lead to rest easily
- decent range
Cons
- easy to kill
- relatively bad range makes her destroyed by range characters
- projectiles are hard
- mediocre at best ground game
- only two truly good moves: bair and rest. any others are bad or average
- rest is the most punishable move in the game
- made obsolete by Pit, Kirby, and D3 who share the same general playstyle, especially Kirby
- hard to buff w/o making her broken
- horrible MU spread at the level of G&W and Ness or maybe even Pichu's from Melee
- slow
- can't gimp as easily as in Melee
- can die from eating up her jumps whether through gimping or by accident
2. Olimar
- great combo game
- blues are godlike for throws
- flowered purples have great power
- flowered whites can rack up to 80%!
- fantastic gimmick if used right
- good range
- groovy projectile
- decent neutral game
Cons
- worst survivability of a character by far because of his broken bad recovery, lightweight, and mega easy to combo fall speed
- confusing gimmick
- requires way too much time to set up with the flowering and the plucking and the whistling
- can lose most of his normals and special moves
- risky options may be too risky to use
- clunky
- pros, aside from the pikmin gimmick, are average compared to other characters
- bad MUs spread

Yes, I know Olimar and Puff seem to have switched numbers but Puff is indeed numba 1 worst with Olimar near that spot at 2nd. Yoshi is a honorable mention.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

You forgot to mention Luigi's godlike shield pressure

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So guys it turns out that Ike is actually bad

Look at his results

Territrash

I conclude that Ike needs buffs, super armor on Aether plus Bowser Side Smash knockback on Bair and Fair should fix him

Minor stuff

No biggie

 

[leekslap]

You forgot to mention Luigi's godlike shield pressure

 

[shairn]

Dtilt is as good for shield pressure as Marth's neutral B

Meaning no it'll never happen ever

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Luigi will break yo **** in like 5 seconds

Basically he can throw out an aerial, and instantly nair right after. The nair has a lingering hitbox and it comes on like frame 3 or something (I THINK), the lingering hitbox can shut down a lot of oos options. So he can keep hopping and throwing out aerials while eating your shield up, and it eats your shield up very quickly. If you are good at the pressure you probably will get shield breaks.

If you roll, he can substitute the nair for a waveland and position himself right in the spot where your roll will take you (Cus of his godlike waveland),

So his pressure is hard to set up, but it is amazing.

 

[leekslap]

So guys it turns out that Ike is actually bad

Look at his results

Territrash

I conclude that Ike needs buffs, super armor on Aether plus Bowser Side Smash knockback on Bair and Fair should fix him

Minor stuff

No biggie

Link's results are bad as well. He needs to be able to bomb jump infinitely with better priority on b, faster moves, faster boomerang that can curve even in the air, a bigger sword, and teleports like Mewtwo.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Link's results are bad as well. He needs to be able to bomb jump infinitely with better priority on b, faster moves, faster boomerang that can curve even in the air, a bigger sword, and teleports like Mewtwo.

This guy GETS balance.

 

[shairn]

Luigi will break yo **** in like 5 seconds

Basically he can throw out an aerial, and instantly nair right after. The nair has a lingering hitbox and it comes on like frame 3 or something (I THINK), the lingering hitbox can shut down a lot of oos options. So he can keep hopping and throwing out aerials while eating your shield up, and it eats your shield up very quickly. If you are good at the pressure you probably will get shield breaks.

If you roll, he can substitute the nair for a waveland and position himself right in the spot where your roll will take you (Cus of his godlike waveland),

So his pressure is hard to set up, but it is amazing.

Video evidence? Luigi's SH is slow as balls so there's no way he's throwing out aerials fast enough that you can't shield grab him. Hitboxes disappear when they hit a shield, so lingering or not his nair's not doing anything.

 

[leekslap]

Luigi will break yo **** in like 5 seconds

Basically he can throw out an aerial, and instantly nair right after. The nair has a lingering hitbox and it comes on like frame 3 or something (I THINK), the lingering hitbox can shut down a lot of oos options. So he can keep hopping and throwing out aerials while eating your shield up, and it eats your shield up very quickly. If you are good at the pressure you probably will get shield breaks.

If you roll, he can substitute the nair for a waveland and position himself right in the spot where your roll will take you (Cus of his godlike waveland),

So his pressure is hard to set up, but it is amazing.

Well now you mentioned it so yeah.

This guy GETS balance.

I KNOW. I should be in the PMDT! Not only am I a master at balance, but I'll make tacos you wouldn't believe!

Can someone explain Yoshi to me? The only thing I know about him is that aMsa is awesome even though I have no idea what he's doing.

 

[shairn]

Yoshi has weird properties in a few of his actions. He has strong armor on his DJ, which means he can DJ through combos and follow up with a double jump canceled aerial to start a combo of his own. His DJC uair and nair are particularly strong. Also, in Melee, his shield animation has special properties where during the startup he is completely invulnerable. He also cannot be shieldpoked, and in Melee his light shield slides very, very far.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Video evidence? Luigi's SH is slow as balls so there's no way he's throwing out aerials fast enough that you can't shield grab him. Hitboxes disappear when they hit a shield, so lingering or not his nair's not doing anything.

I mean, I've played a few Luigi's myself, so I have personal experience. And if I were to classify Luigi in a certain category I would definitely write him up as a pressure character. There aren't many vids of Luigi so it will be hard to find some evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfS...-ECZjJZ9pv0Dg&feature=player_detailpage#t=131

Do you see how fast that **** eats up shields? That was 2 aerials and a typical jab string, ****s crazy. I also forgot to mention Jabs and how Luigi's fair is also fast af

There aren't enough Luigi's to provide video evidence, so all I can say is play more luigi's

 

[Ripple]

yoshi can still be shield poked in this game because brawl was ********

 

[shairn]

I mean, I've played a few Luigi's myself, so I have personal experience. And if I were to classify Luigi in a certain category I would definitely write him up as a pressure character. there aren't many vids of Luigi so it will be hard to find some evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfS...-ECZjJZ9pv0Dg&feature=player_detailpage#t=131

Do you see how fast that **** eats up shields?

There aren't enough Luigi's to provide video evidence, so all I can say is play more luigi's

Most of the shield damage was from his jabs. Jabs which come out much faster than his aerials for sure. Yes, he ate up quite a bit of his shield, but it was over. Sethlon could have easily shield grabbed him, and Elza got nothing out of it.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Most of the shield damage was from his jabs. Jabs which come out much faster than his aerials for sure. Yes, he ate up quite a bit of his shield, but it was over. Sethlon could have easily shield grabbed him, and Elza got nothing out of it.

Elza got nothing out of it? LMAO did we not watch the same clip?

 

[shairn]

Elza got nothing out of it? LMAO did we not watch the same clip?

I was speaking about the situation alone. After jab 3, Sethlon had a frame advantage and nothing Luigi can pull out could have beaten it to the extent of my knowledge. Yeah Sethlon rolled and he got baired into a down B but that was because he made a mistake.

 

[jtm94]

Can you really Shield poke Yoshi??? I've been playing as him more and I swear it happens from time to time, but write it off as me grabbing or jumping at bad times. Yoshi is pretty good in this.

Ice Climbers still have an infinite and an infinite alone made them decent in Melee. They have other good stuff, but few have put in the time to learn all of their wonky mechanics on a frame by frame basis.

Luigi also has GOD aerials. If Mario had the same aerials he would somehow be better than he is now, he'd have to keep his dair though.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Lol "Luigi is bad because you need advanced tech to even move" since when does needing to use the most basic AT for success impact tier placement. Like "fox isnt that good cause you need to be able to L cancel your aerials into shine and wave shine is hard"

Wtf

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Can you really Shield poke Yoshi??? I've been playing as him more and I swear it happens from time to time, but write it off as me grabbing or jumping at bad times. Yoshi is pretty good in this.

Ice Climbers still have an infinite and an infinite alone made them decent in Melee. They have other good stuff, but few have put in the time to learn all of their wonky mechanics on a frame by frame basis.

Luigi also has GOD aerials. If Mario had the same aerials he would somehow be better than he is now, he'd have to keep his dair though.

Too bad this isn't melee or jigglypuff would still be top tier

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I was speaking about the situation alone. After jab 3, Sethlon had a frame advantage and nothing Luigi can pull out could have beaten it to the extent of my knowledge. Yeah Sethlon rolled and he got baired into a down B but that was because he made a mistake.

Sethlon rolled because there was a small ass window to grab after the third jab, and since his shield was so low he didn't want to risk it. Elza could have softened the shield up a bit more with some more spaced fairs or something, but he went for the jabs cus he prolly thought it would get a shield break. But it still gets my point across that Luigi has some sick pressure. Being able to throw out 2 super fast aerials in one hop is is pretty good if you ask me.

 

[leekslap]

Who's the best PM Yoshi? It's hard to know because usually Yoshi's just hang around pools and the Yoshis I know aren't exactly aMsa level. I just wanna know how Yoshi is.

 

[leekslap]

Sethlon rolled because there was a small *** window to grab after the third jab, and since his shield was so low he didn't want to risk it. Elza could have softened the shield up a bit more with some more spaced fairs or something, but he went for the jabs cus he prolly thought it would get a shield break. But it still gets my point across that Luigi has some sick pressure. Being able to throw out 2 super fast aerials in one hop is is pretty good if you ask me.

Lucas

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Lucas

Lucas pressure

hold down + b

 

[shairn]

Lucas pressure: just get good at doing


Really really fast

EDIT: Inb4 Fox/Falco

 

[Ogopogo]

Anyone who has every played against a Luigi expects and waits for nair after a short-hopped dair. It's alright shield pressure, especially if their shield is already low, but you can just wavedash OoS, or up-b OoS, or anything really. If you roll away maybe Luigi could WD and catch you with a dsmash but I wouldn't list his shield pressure as being anything noteworthy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I can say for a fact the top 5 worst:
4. Luigi

My god. Surely you jest.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Anyone who has every played against a Luigi expects and waits for nair after a short-hopped dair. It's alright shield pressure, especially if their shield is already low, but you can just wavedash OoS, or up-b OoS, or anything really. If you roll away maybe Luigi could WD and catch you with a dsmash but I wouldn't list his shield pressure as being anything noteworthy.

Of course everyone expects Luigi to nair after everything, but when you are in shield you are kinda stuck there. He can throw out spaced fairs or bairs as well. Most characters don't have Up B's that can stop that kind of pressure, and a wd oos will get punished.

Buffered roll gets you out of almost every characters shield pressure, the fact that Luigi can follow up on your roll so easily is actually very important.

Keep sleepin on Luigi, I don't think hes that good of a character but I know he has some excellent shield pressure.

 

[steelguttey]

even worse olimar bottom 2 what in the ****

 

[leekslap]

D

Lucas pressure: just get good at doing


Really really fast

EDIT: Inb4 Fox/Falco

Don't think bad of me but I was actually only thinking of nair lol

 

[Blank Mauser]

Lucas pressure: just get good at doing


Really really fast

EDIT: Inb4 Fox/Falco

So inefficient. You have something against C-stick?

There are some things I like about Lucas pressure and some things I don't. I find it more interesting than space animal pressure because there are few ways for it to be frame-tight, but its pretty hard to know when your openings are if the Lucas is varying it/random.

The few things that are really frame tight are probably too good since he can move with magnet to follow shield DI. Though its extremely difficult.