Tier List Speculation

[RelaxAlax]

What's up Alax? Love your videos! Yeah lacking MU knowledge is the primary reason Olimar doesn't get bodied all the time. I don't think it's because of bandwagon always-being-in-the-bottom, he was my very first PM main but even though I was really good and tried 200%, I lost a lot. His pros and cons are in my previous post. Ganon bodies low level players but starts falling behind at high level play. I don't think he's that unexplored, I mean, Vex went toe to toe with ZeRo and beat JReed and Cruzycakes ( top level mario and wario) and there's alot of good or bad PM Ganons. Yoshi is totally unexplored, especially since aMsa no longer mains him since he doesn't have the same Melee feel and techniques like parrying and the ledge egg thing.
EDIT: Also, forgot to mention that the buffs I suggested were fixing his unnecessary holes in viability like his recovery or managing pikmin so he wouldn't be broken.

Shhhh, don't let people know I'm more than a Ganon main (but thanks, feels nice being recognized :] lool)

And yeah, Oli will get wrecked by high level players mos def. He has alot of quirks and I feel he wasn't really fully explored or developed by the team. Maybe they should implement a new Pikmin mechanic? Who knows, but it's pretty unanimous he needs fixes.

I agree on Ganondorf, once people know how to play against him, he starts losing more. But he isn't garbage, he can hold his own against alot of the cast, save Ivy or Samus who totally ruin him with really sharp leaves and endless ammo. If these updates from the team are anything (and a few hints from testers) he's getting some fixes.

I think alot of this "low tier=bad" comes from past games. To say this Ganondorf is just as bad as a Pichu in Melee is a poor comparison. All things considered, the tier list really is defined in the upper regions, letting us all agree on the top 6, while further a ways down the middle is hazy, while the bottom primarily (and for good reason) has Ganondorf, Olimar, Jiggs, Dedede, Bowser and IC's.

In conclusion: PMBR, plz halp fatties and carrotores that half beid AI (and Melee characters that suck when everyone else is good.)

 

[trash?]

Why do so many people feel the need to point how long they've thought a character was ridiculous?

I WAS THE PROPHET GOD DAMN IT

I GAVE PRAYERS TO OUR TECH-CHASING LORD AND DAIR-SPAMMING SAVIOR AND EVERYTHING!!!!

also because I wanted to exclusively play as him when 2.6 came out but then his really broken stuff was too boring for my tastes

 

[leekslap]

Shhhh, don't let people know I'm more than a Ganon main (but thanks, feels nice being recognized :] lool)

And yeah, Oli will get wrecked by high level players mos def. He has alot of quirks and I feel he wasn't really fully explored or developed by the team. Maybe they should implement a new Pikmin mechanic? Who knows, but it's pretty unanimous he needs fixes.

I agree on Ganondorf, once people know how to play against him, he starts losing more. But he isn't garbage, he can hold his own against alot of the cast, save Ivy or Samus who totally ruin him with really sharp leaves and endless ammo. If these updates from the team are anything (and a few hints from testers) he's getting some fixes.

I think alot of this "low tier=bad" comes from past games. To say this Ganondorf is just as bad as a Pichu in Melee is a poor comparison. All things considered, the tier list really is defined in the upper regions, letting us all agree on the top 6, while further a ways down the middle is hazy, while the bottom primarily (and for good reason) has Ganondorf, Olimar, Jiggs, Dedede, Bowser and IC's.

In conclusion: PMBR, plz halp fatties and carrotores that half beid AI (and Melee characters that suck when everyone else is good.)

Completely disagree with Dedede being bad. He's easily one of the most balanced characters in the game! He's got arguably the best gimping game, fat hitboxes, excellent grab game, a groovy projectile that can be used for recovery camping and combos, good power, good combo ability, darn near unkillable with his weight fast fall and recovery, great moveset overall, and he is a rich eastern blue penguin king. On the flip side, he is easy to combo, has trouble with better camping and projectiles, he is fairly easy to edgeguard, his moves are kinda slow, and he is a big target.

 

[leekslap]

I WAS THE PROPHET GOD DAMN IT

I GAVE PRAYERS TO OUR TECH-CHASING LORD AND DAIR-SPAMMING SAVIOR AND EVERYTHING!!!!

also because I wanted to exclusively play as him when 2.6 came out but then his really broken stuff was too boring for my tastes

Can you at least explain why MK is broken? I for one think he is really balanced.

 

[trash?]

for the most part all the disadvantages MK is supposed to have are covered immensely by otherwise unintended consequences of his moveset.

he's supposed to be really bad at handling projectiles, but dair adds so much to his mobility that he has little issue getting around it. he's supposed to have issues with people crouch-cancelling, but grab comes out quickly, makes good distance, and dthrow tech-chasing covers so much damage with consistency that CC %'s don't mean much.

so instead of being good at late-stock rushdown, he's just good at doing... whatever he feels like. also, the same silly recovery as everyone else but it's not his most unpleasantly designed point

 

[Bleck]

seriously whose idea was it to give Meta Knight a divekick

 

[trash?]

every once in a while I remember that he was given that dair because it was supposed to act as a nerf, then I chuckle endlessly

 

[MLGF]

It is a nerf.

Everything's relative.

 

[leekslap]

every once in a while I remember that he was given that dair because it was supposed to act as a nerf, then I chuckle endlessly

Dair is overrated. How are hou supposed to immediately grab after being CCed? Plus I just powershield everything. I'm awesome that way. #techskill

 

[CORY]

you're not. you run up and grab, rather than cc, in anticipation of them ccing something.

 

[JesteRace]

Link doesn't need nerfed. Discuss.

 

[shairn]

Link doesn't need nerfed. Discuss.

Link need nerf

 

[JesteRace]

Yo, Link is top tier, unquestionably. There's even a few tweaks I could live with. But he's not unfair or anything(unless you're a fatty, but they need buffs). His performance at the top level has been less than impressive for someone who's "too strong, please nerf"

 

[RelaxAlax]

Link need nerf

I agree, those foam darts would cause alot of mix ups and are basically auto-combos :/

 

[MLGF]

I mean, when your meta begins and ends with boomerang...

 

[shairn]

Make his boomerang a big orange foam nerf rang
1% damage and does the luigi dtilt sound

 

[DrinkingFood]

1: Revert to an old not stupid version of boomerang
2: Make arrow aimable and quicker to end, now he can harass platform bound opponents with something not named boomerang
3: What if bomb exploded on shield and did reasonable shield damage, now he can discourage shielding with something not named boomerang
There, now link can force opponents to approach without almost exclusively using 'rang

 

[JesteRace]

Use boomerangs exclusively against spacies and let me know how that goes for you.

 

[MLGF]

Works well against all fatties and most swordies.

When I need to use jank like MK to feel like I have decent MU, that character's jank.

Seriously, I admit my main is absolute jank. Why is it so damn hard to admit your character has design problems?

 

[JesteRace]

I just don't equate "design problems" with "being overpowered". And like I said, the fatties need buffs, not the other way around.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Link needs decentralization, not an overall nerf.

 

[Bleck]

"Link having a kit based entirely around using one move is bad." ~ someone talking about Project M, a mod that gives Falco his Melee Reflector back

 

[jtm94]

Metaknight has a frame 3 nair with only like 4-6 frames of landing lag. Are you SERIOUS?!? One can't argue for that not being good, all of his moves are stupid fast and have solid KB. It isn't like he's a fast combo character that can't KO, his bair isn't slow at all, but on him it seems like it takes a year to come out.

Link is crazy, but I feel like he hits a ceiling with his slowish movement. Projectiles be over there, but just CC and attack through them. They do give him free wins in certain MUs though.

 

[NeonApophis]

It seems like 3.5 will be coming out pretty soon, so this is almost certainly the last tier list I'll be posting for 3.02.
This list is heavily influenced by tournament results from the past few months, which have helped reveal which characters are most powerful. It's also based on my own theory-crafting and match-up knowledge, so some characters may be higher or slightly lower than you would expect.


S Tier

1. Mewtwo
2. Sonic
3. Lucas
4. Fox
5. Pit
6. Falco
7. Wolf
8. Link

A+ Tier

9. Meta Knight
10. Mario
11. Squirtle
12. Toon Link
13. Diddy Kong
14. Ivysaur
15. Olimar
16. Snake
17. Pikachu
18. Sheik

A Tier

19. Zero Suit Samus
20. Peach
21. Marth
22. Roy
23. Game and Watch
24. Kirby
25. ROB
26. Lucario
27. Yoshi
28. Samus
29. Ness

A- Tier

30. Captain Falcon
31. Ike
32. Wario
33. Bowser
34. Charizard
35. Donkey Kong
36. Zelda
37. Jigglypuff

B+ Tier

38. Luigi
39. Dedede
40. Ganondorf
41. Ice Climbers

 

[leekslap]

Link doesn't need nerfed. Discuss.

He does. Tweaks at least. His supposed weakness is pressure and combos but his projectiles, up b OoS, and range mitigate that too much. You thought Pit's recovery was broken? Mewtwo's? Meta Knight's? Bomb jumping is essentially infinite recovery AND he has a tether. Then he has mega crazy auto combos to the maximum that you can set up with your bombs and boomerang and easily end it with a kill move. His dash attack basically combos into anything, boomerang is too good, he nas COMBOS NOW! HE NEVER HAD COMBOS BEFORE. I DON'T WANNA THINK ABOUT THIS MAN!

 

[leekslap]

It seems like 3.5 will be coming out pretty soon, so this is almost certainly the last tier list I'll be posting for 3.02.
This list is heavily influenced by tournament results from the past few months, which have helped reveal which characters are most powerful. It's also based on my own theory-crafting and match-up knowledge, so some characters may be higher or slightly lower than you would expect.


S Tier

1. Mewtwo
2. Sonic
3. Lucas
4. Fox
5. Pit
6. Falco
7. Wolf
8. Link

A+ Tier

9. Meta Knight
10. Mario
11. Squirtle
12. Toon Link
13. Diddy Kong
14. Ivysaur
15. Olimar
16. Snake
17. Pikachu
18. Sheik

A Tier

19. Zero Suit Samus
20. Peach
21. Marth
22. Roy
23. Game and Watch
24. Kirby
25. ROB
26. Lucario
27. Yoshi
28. Samus
29. Ness

A- Tier

30. Captain Falcon
31. Ike
32. Wario
33. Bowser
34. Charizard
35. Donkey Kong
36. Zelda
37. Jigglypuff

B+ Tier

38. Luigi
39. Dedede
40. Ganondorf
41. Ice Climbers

It's a nice list but imma critique it now

"Fox is the most overrated character,"-Mew2King AKA the best Fox. Diddy Kong should be higher: bananas, super easy and crazy combos, broken recovery, etc. Squirtle? Squirtle placement tho? Olimar*facepalms*. Just visit the previous page on this thread to see my Olimar pros and cons. Sheik is bad in this game. I mean, it's not that SHE'S bad, but everyone else is so much better. Ness is criminally underrated in this game. PK Fire leads to crazy grab combos, good power, godlike pressure with PK Fire, and he's overall really solid and technical. Ike amd Zelda should be way higher. Why does everyone hate on Dedede? He's like Jigglypuff 2.0 w/o rest. I explained above. At least Mid Tier character, D3 is. Jigglypuff should be the third worst character and Olimar should be second. Oh and zfalco is kinda overrfaded.

Other than my wall of text, it's a pretty good tier list. I mean, you got alot of things right.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not going to elaborate much if at all on this list because it'd be a waste of my time, but **** it I'll get a list out before the next patch.

S Tier






A Tier







B Tier








C Tier













D Tier





Some chars are probably interchangeable throughout the tiers, though I've taken the time to order them a little. I've always had a strong opinion that Zard should be more relevant. But eh whatever.

 

[Phan7om]

inb4sonicisnotlowerthan...

 

[Blank Mauser]

People just suck against Sonic. Pivot shield among other tactics and decent reactions make the matchup a lot more tolerable. Doesn't mean he isn't good though.

 

[JesteRace]

How could you forget ? Everyone forgets

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Not going to elaborate much if at all on this list because it'd be a waste of my time, but **** it I'll get a list out before the next patch.

S Tier






A Tier







B Tier








C Tier













D Tier




Some chars are probably interchangeable throughout the tiers, though I've taken the time to order them a little. I've always had a strong opinion that Zard should be more relevant. But eh whatever.

I Feel like its too early to say their is a possibility of a change that nobody expects

 

[Blank Mauser]

How could you forget ? Everyone forgets

I had him on there but deleted it to move him somewhere and just forgot to put him back in lol.

 

[leekslap]

Not going to elaborate much if at all on this list because it'd be a waste of my time, but **** it I'll get a list out before the next patch.

S Tier






A Tier







B Tier








C Tier













D Tier





Some chars are probably interchangeable throughout the tiers, though I've taken the time to order them a little. I've always had a strong opinion that Zard should be more relevant. But eh whatever.

tl:dr This is a really bad tier list. The main thing you got right was Luigi's placememt lol It's time to make my 2nd tear fist!
~~~~~~~
GOD TIER
~~~~~~~
1. Pit
2. Mewtwo
3. Lucas
4. Sonic
5. Diddy Kong
6. Link
~~~~~~~
HIGH TIER
~~~~~~~
7. Mario
8. Fox
9. Wolf
10. Meta Knight
11. Zelda
12. Ivysaur
13. Falco
~~~~~~~~~~~
UPPER MID TIER
~~~~~~~~~~~
14. Ness
15. Toon Link
16. Snake
17. Samus
18. Marth
19. Ike
20. Dedede
~~~~~~
MID TIER
~~~~~~
21. Pikachu
22. R.O.B.
24. Wario
25. Squirtle
26. Bowser
27. DK
28. Roy
29. Captain Falcon
30. ZSS
31. Kirby
~~~~~~~
LOW TIER
~~~~~~~
32. Charizard
33. G&W
34. Peach
35. Sheik
36. Yoshi
37. Ganon
~~~~~~~~~~
GARBAGE TIER
~~~~~~~~~~
38. Luigi
39. Jigglypuff
40. Olimar
41. Ice Climbers
I tried to reason some things out but my tier list just ended up like this.

 

[Deleted member]

12. Toon Link

Even I don't put tink that high loooooool wut

I'd say he's like 20-15th, not too sure how I feel about 12th. Better than Diddy Kong? thats a BIG statement

 

[trash?]

somewhere, jolteon senses everyone ranking tlink higher than snake and laughs maniacally

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It mk has a dat pwn grab, then it is 7 frames... Plenty of good **** in this game that is faster than that.

 

[shairn]

It mk has a dat pwn grab, then it is 7 frames... Plenty of good **** in this game that is faster than that.

A whopping 7 frames? That's a whole 3 frames to react and use my jab in time!

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Don't forget that grabs are equivalent to a 6-frame option in trades, thanks to grab armor.

 

[Player -0]

Pretty good combo tool onstage. Also fire.


If they're crouching long enough for you to get a dair out they're doing it wrong.

TLink 2fast.

He does. Tweaks at least. His supposed weakness is pressure and combos but his projectiles, up b OoS, and range mitigate that too much. You thought Pit's recovery was broken? Mewtwo's? Meta Knight's? Bomb jumping is essentially infinite recovery AND he has a tether. Then he has mega crazy auto combos to the maximum that you can set up with your bombs and boomerang and easily end it with a kill move. His dash attack basically combos into anything, boomerang is too good, he nas COMBOS NOW! HE NEVER HAD COMBOS BEFORE. I DON'T WANNA THINK ABOUT THIS MAN!

This is pretty misinformed. You can only bomb jump like, 4 times IF you haven't hit a spin2winscrub at all. You can also easily hit him out of the hitstun from the bomb jump. He's also had combos before.

Also M2's recovery is way more broken than Link's. What are you saying.

1: Revert to an old not stupid version of boomerang
2: Make arrow aimable and quicker to end, now he can harass platform bound opponents with something not named boomerang
3: What if bomb exploded on shield and did reasonable shield damage, now he can discourage shielding with something not named boomerang
There, now link can force opponents to approach without almost exclusively using 'rang

You can use bomb right now via throwing at them, it bounces off shield. You can regrab bomb and rechuck or herp de derp bad pressure with the happy thought of a bomb falling down to explode on the shielding opponent. Although double bomb punt -> lol would be pretty cool.

 

[Ripple]

Don't forget that grabs are equivalent to a 6-frame option in trades, thanks to grab armor.

They were also in melee. Except they didn't just got armor. They won