Tier List Speculation

[leekslap]

TLink 2fast.


This is pretty misinformed. You can only bomb jump like, 4 times IF you haven't hit a spin2winscrub at all. You can also easily hit him out of the hitstun from the bomb jump. He's also had combos before.

Also M2's recovery is way more broken than Link's. What are you saying.


You can use bomb right now via throwing at them, it bounces off shield. You can regrab bomb and rechuck or herp de derp bad pressure with the happy thought of a bomb falling down to explode on the shielding opponent. Although double bomb punt -> lol would be pretty cool.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

And that's only Toon Link's... I said essentially, since he doesn't need more than four. Plus he can DI when the bomb hits him to make his recovery even more bogus! That's a word I haven't seen in a loooooong time. My point being, Link is broken.

 

[Deleted member]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

dude I hate when people link this video, it doesn't really show why toonlinks recovery is good. Like, yes he does do AGTs and walljumps and stuff but like its all flash and never happens in matches. In a real match, Toonlink double jumps, pulls a bomb, and bomb jumps 3 times and then tethers back.

The amount of times people link that video... lol

 

[PsionicSabreur]

They were also in melee. Except they didn't just got armor. They won

Yeah, I'm aware, and I didn't mean to imply that I had a problem with the mechanic, or that I was comparing it to Melee.

 

[Player -0]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

And that's only Toon Link's... I said essentially, since he doesn't need more than four. Plus he can DI when the bomb hits him to make his recovery even more bogus! That's a word I haven't seen in a loooooong time. My point being, Link is broken.

Link doesn't have wall jumps unless you want to blow yourself up -> tech jump. Known more commonly as giving your opponent free damage. Also the thing I just talked about is a lot more situational.

He suffers for a lot more hitstun than TLink after a bomb jump (if high percent, aka prime time to be recovering from a far distance). Also if he's carried off a decent distance while at low-mid percent it's very difficult to bomb jump back + you take a lot of damage.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. TLink's recovery isn't really relevant and the video you posted doesn't apply to Link at all. If Link had ALL of TLink's options then you might be getting at something.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar is solid mid tier if they remove rng and not change it to a set pikmin order

and fix recovery i guess

 

[Player -0]

Fix it so you actually get more of a boost when you have less pikmin?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Bomb jumping isn't exactly a free pass back to the ledge no matter how much distance it covers, not sure why anyone would seriously think it's broken.

TLink 2fast.

Pretty sure we were talking about the adult version, but I stand by what I said regardless.

 

[Player -0]

Bomb jumping isn't exactly a free pass back to the ledge no matter how much distance it covers, not sure why anyone would seriously think it's broken.

Pretty sure we were talking about the adult version, but I stand by what I said regardless.

I mean, we can have boomerang out and stuff too. But still, dairplane yolo with that whopping amount of damage and dumb hitbox.

Probably not viable but if opponent is at high percents that thing is scary.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Big House 4: Professor Pro brought the hype. Three stock feels bad; is bad. I'm sick of seeing Pit and Diddy.

 

[jtm94]

Diddy man.... Loss for words on that character. Pit be in there though.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

olimar is solid mid tier if they remove rng and not change it to a set pikmin order

and fix recovery i guess

...if they remove RNG, it's more than likely, going to be ordered. No one is gonna run no advanced bull**** like, hit 3 dairs and the next is purple. An if it's like, hold b button for x amount of time, that = dumb.

Diddy's usmash confirmed broke.

 

[trash?]

I feel like every time prof pro comes to the US, there's an issue where he'll beat the hell out of people, but the second someone figures out his setups he kind of just breaks down

idk if that's a character thing or a player thing though. I'm leaning towards character since snake is based so deeply in getting things set up for him, but there's also only like two snake players who matter so it's not exactly all that conclusive

 

[Ace55]

Seriously, who was the person responsible for Pit's down throw? And how did it end up in a public version?

 

[Rᴏb]

I would love to know that as well.

 

[Deleted member]

pit is a bad character and smells like armpit

he also beats my character too much, please nerf and give me buffs

 

[Deleted member]

you know what's worse than both pit and diddy? 3 stocks.

let's never do that again, ever.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm hopeful that once 3.5 comes out people will stop complaining that PM takes too long and we can leave 3-stock to rest.

 

[Deleted member]

you know what's worse than both pit and diddy? 3 stocks.

let's never do that again, ever.

They didn't even change the time, they kept it at eight minutes, double you tee eff

 

[Ripple]

me vs. hbox almost went to time every game too

 

[kaizo13]

so about Zero pulling out fox whenever he may be struggling in a set and and convincingly taking the game...

i've never felt that fox needed any nerfs, and i still don't....but that's in Melee, where fox tech demands more precision and consistency...making the window for potential errors significantly larger.

We all now Zero is an amazing player, but let's be honest his Melee fox isn't much of an eye-opener. The sheer fact that his pit can get 3-0'd then switch to fox and get a 3-0 himself is rather...interesting.

I believe that the tech skill difference between Melee and PM fox is more significant that the PMDT initially thought it would be, or at least i hope they see it now. I strongly suggest that they work on reintergrating that technicality back to fox, rather than to keep nerfing him. There's a reason there is only one consistent fox player in top level Melee.

i think it would be a bad move on PMDT's part to nerf PM fox any further, but also i do feel fox is currently too good for how "easy" he is to play.

 

[Soft Serve]

Maybe zero's fox is just better, and he changed characters because he saw gaps in the other players play that he couldn't fill or punish correctly with Pit.
Zero's fox is incredibly solid and playing at that level is by no means easy imo. Zero himself is also just a great player and showed his adaptation skills once again with the reverse 3-0. His fox isn't an eye-opener, he doesn't style like lucky, doesn't have the reads/intuition that mango's does, and isn't as consistant/fundamental as leffen's fox, but he uses fox exactly how he should in most MU's and thats how he pulls ahead in PM with him.

Idk, Fox needs some re-tweaking but zero showing he was the better player again isn't what should justify it.

 

[kaizo13]

Maybe zero's fox is just better, and he changed characters because he saw gaps in the other players play that he couldn't fill or punish correctly with Pit.
Zero's fox is incredibly solid and playing at that level is by no means easy imo. Zero himself is also just a great player and showed his adaptation skills once again with the reverse 3-0. His fox isn't an eye-opener, he doesn't style like lucky, doesn't have the reads/intuition that mango's does, and isn't as consistant/fundamental as leffen's fox, but he uses fox exactly how he should in most MU's and thats how he pulls ahead in PM with him.

Idk, Fox needs some re-tweaking but zero showing he was the better player again isn't what should justify it.

don't get me wrong, i'm not solely basing this off Zero or his current wins. It was just the most obvious example of what i'm trying to portray. And yes i can agree with some of your sentiments, but the facts are still there...and the fact is that PM fox is much easier to be consistent with than Melee fox, and for a character that has evolved over the years into an insanely offensive character that gets heavily punished and easily gimped.....the overall "safeness" and consistency that PM fox has, throws off that balance

 

[Frost | Odds]

All these posts claiming Bowser is mid tier or better, threaten fatal damage to both my palms and my poor face.

Fifty years dungeon, all of you.

 

[steelguttey]

...if they remove RNG, it's more than likely, going to be ordered. No one is gonna run no advanced bull**** like, hit 3 dairs and the next is purple. An if it's like, hold b button for x amount of time, that = dumb.

ordered is just the simplest way of doing it and nobody is thinking of any other way of doing it. how is it hard to think of a way to choose one color out of five in a way where it isnt unfair for either player other than picking it in an order

there is a nearly infinite amount of possibilites

 

[DrinkingFood]

so about Zero pulling out fox whenever he may be struggling in a set and and convincingly taking the game...

i've never felt that fox needed any nerfs, and i still don't....but that's in Melee, where fox tech demands more precision and consistency...making the window for potential errors significantly larger.

We all now Zero is an amazing player, but let's be honest his Melee fox isn't much of an eye-opener. The sheer fact that his pit can get 3-0'd then switch to fox and get a 3-0 himself is rather...interesting.

I believe that the tech skill difference between Melee and PM fox is more significant that the PMDT initially thought it would be, or at least i hope they see it now. I strongly suggest that they work on reintergrating that technicality back to fox, rather than to keep nerfing him. There's a reason there is only one consistent fox player at top level Melee.

i think it would be a bad move on PMDT's part to nerf PM fox any further, but i do feel fox is currently too good for how "easy" he is to play.

The issue is matchups. Zero possibly knows certain PM matchups better, and even if he doesn't, there is certainly more developed meta for matchups against fox in Melee than there are for PM.
Besides, the things that are easier to do with fox in PM are not that hard to do in Melee with practice anyways. It's all entry level tech for competition, and the stuff that is hard even with consistent practice (see: multishines) are still just as hard.

 

[Deleted member]

i'm kinda in the same boat, fox is still too strong, he's just not obscene like he is in melee. than again all of the melee players will see the BH4 top 8 having 5 foxes (potentially 6 if m2k had played hbox) and swear up and down that it's balanced.

what_is_cognitive_dissonance

 

[JesteRace]

Because the foxes have just "mastered" their character more, right?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ordered is just the simplest way of doing it and nobody is thinking of any other way of doing it. how is it hard to think of a way to choose one color out of five in a way where it isnt unfair for either player other than picking it in an order

there is a nearly infinite amount of possibilites

Considering you didn't list a way in your post, must be pretty hard.

 

[Jolteon]

somewhere, jolteon senses everyone ranking tlink higher than snake and laughs maniacally

I agree with his general placement of both characters.

 

[Soft Serve]

seriously whose idea was it to give Meta Knight a divekick

sorta late but heres the thread where it started roughly, it was Dazrin/Dazes' idea. Hey, it could have been worse, it was supposed to be able to be Jump cancel-able at anytime.

 

[steelguttey]

Considering you didn't list a way in your post, must be pretty hard.

cause im not part of the pmbr and thats what they got signed up to do but this is at 12:00am so note these are probably gonna be ideas that need ironing out or have major flaws because its 12 am and im about to go to sleep but

also note that i dont know how hard these are to put in the game im just listing ideas

-sort of like an ivysaur solarbeam system where if you hit people with pikmin moves you get a charge and when you pluck you get a pikmin depending on the amount of charges you have so like 1 charge = blue 2 charge = white 3 charge = purple (you would normally pluck red and yellow without any charges)

-the light on your head changes color depending on the type of pikmin your about to get and the pikmin alternate from yellow-red-blue-white-purple and then the light gets brighter and does the same cycle again and the light gets even brighter. the brighter the light depends on what stage its in so if its at the lowest brightness you get a leaf at the second stage of brightness you get a bud and at the highest stage you get a flower. this does support stalling and cheap defensive play but maybe it can also reward offensive play by increasing the speed of the time when you hit someone or the light only brightens when you hit someone? idk

the main things im incorporating here is the idea of improving over time and being rewarded by doing something right and not being rewarded for stalling for a silly amount of time. i want to be rewarded with a good pikmin by doing something not just shuffling pikmin (what would happen if there was a set order)

i want to also emphasize that being rewarded for good play should also increase the momentum you have so you should get pikmin that go with the situation youre in (purple is killing power, blue starts combos and kills at high percents, red is aerials, yellow is spacing and white is damage)

 

[Circle_Breaker]

i'm kinda in the same boat, fox is still too strong, he's just not obscene like he is in melee. than again all of the melee players will see the BH4 top 8 having 5 foxes (potentially 6 if m2k had played hbox) and swear up and down that it's balanced.

what_is_cognitive_dissonance

One year closer to 20XX


F0XX just seems fair to some people cause its so easy to wreck bad foxes, and good ones get some respect for doing stuff more quickly than I can. Character still broken, really needs pal nerfs at least. People can say all they want that pal nerfs arent enough and I agree but fox killing off a shine usmash at 60% instead of 80% means he needs one less good read in NTSC and that decides matches.

 

[didds]

If Yoshi is terrible as is, then I would not mind him staying terrible one bit.

 

[themickeynick]

You know I think Ivysaur is top tier but that's just me.

Edit: /s

 

[skellitorman]

I don't know if this has been suggested for Olimar, but I have 2 simple ideas that could easily address the RNG situation.

1. Hold B (to start the plucking animation) and then immediately hold a direction(Up, down, left, right, and neutral) to get the Pikmin color of choice. With this option there could be a restriction in place that does not allow Olimar to pluck more than 1 of the same Pikmin.

2. I doubt many would like this idea, but they could just standardize the effects of all the Pikmin colors, meaning all the Pikmin colors have the same properties of each other.

 

[Phan7om]

O that would be so fun

 

[Frost | Odds]

You know I think Ivysaur is top tier but that's just me.

omg the ivy salt u guise

crucify this salty scrub before he pollutes the internet with more of his self-evidently wrong opinions!

I mean, uh, I'm all for Olimar having some (or even complete) control over the pikmin colors he pulls.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If Yoshi is terrible as is, then I would not mind him staying terrible one bit.

He good, just about everyone on yoshi just suck tho

cause im not part of the pmbr and thats what they got signed up to do but this is at 12:00am so note these are probably gonna be ideas that need ironing out or have major flaws because its 12 am and im about to go to sleep but

also note that i dont know how hard these are to put in the game im just listing ideas

-sort of like an ivysaur solarbeam system where if you hit people with pikmin moves you get a charge and when you pluck you get a pikmin depending on the amount of charges you have so like 1 charge = blue 2 charge = white 3 charge = purple (you would normally pluck red and yellow without any charges)

-the light on your head changes color depending on the type of pikmin your about to get and the pikmin alternate from yellow-red-blue-white-purple and then the light gets brighter and does the same cycle again and the light gets even brighter. the brighter the light depends on what stage its in so if its at the lowest brightness you get a leaf at the second stage of brightness you get a bud and at the highest stage you get a flower. this does support stalling and cheap defensive play but maybe it can also reward offensive play by increasing the speed of the time when you hit someone or the light only brightens when you hit someone? idk

the main things im incorporating here is the idea of improving over time and being rewarded by doing something right and not being rewarded for stalling for a silly amount of time. i want to be rewarded with a good pikmin by doing something not just shuffling pikmin (what would happen if there was a set order)

i want to also emphasize that being rewarded for good play should also increase the momentum you have so you should get pikmin that go with the situation youre in (purple is killing power, blue starts combos and kills at high percents, red is aerials, yellow is spacing and white is damage)

wow
You actually can grasp that concept now? I was getting tired of you saying, some of those complex thoughts of yours, wouldn't be hard to do, with no knowledge on programming, what so ever.

The cycle thing makes no sense to me. Is it like a slot machine or something?

Haven't heard any ideas on pikmin, that are even decent.

 

[didds]

He good, just about everyone on yoshi just suck tho

suck or never recorded or mentioned, makes no difference I suppose.

 

[yttik]

So have people tried to make any tier lists on their own for this game? I've only seen one which, which looked kinda off tbh, was wondering if there was any others.