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Did you guys even read my reasoning, like, at all? Luigi is solid but everything is relative, espcially in Project M. Plus, I haven't seen a single Luigi player manage to have a good amount of success despite their skill. Olimar's combo game is crazy but his weaknesses are bigger than anything I've ever seen! Range destroys him, and MU inexperience is the primary reason he doesn't get bodied all the time. I think only Puff REALLY counts as a low tier. All the others can win, but Puff is living off 2 moves: bair and rest. Kinda reminds me of Brawl Sonic...
People that don't play the game and sit here and argue pointlessly on this thread sleep on olimar
Enjoy your ignorance, I have to deal with SS just playing the same no matter what the line is like, because line management isn't as important as you guys are making it out to be. Yeah, optimizing the pikmin you have is important, but when you just need to put that hitbox where the opponent is, it really doesnt matter if its yellow, blue, or purple, flowered or not. that **** hits hard non-flowered, and they flower really fast.
All he needs is pivot grabs and upsmash/uair and he is multiple times better than Ganon or ICs. He has a projectile that forces approaches and responses, has a GREAT recovery (whoever keeps saying its bad because it's "broken" should stop, if its targeting the ledge but not grabbing it, you just aren't close enough.) Disjoints and a fantastic punish game top it off.
I dont get why people say olimar is bad when he clearly has strong tools for every situation no matter what line his pikmin are in. Simple, strong sheik-like neutral with better mobility, top tier punish game, and a better than average recovery does not add up to a character being bottom 5.
Ganon is bad because he litterally cant approach, has no reason to make the opponent want to approach, and has a slow and telegraphed recovery. He doesn't even punish that hard, most of the time he gets 1-2 hits that do 40% and then has to reset the situation because he is slow and can't catch back up.
Olimar (and luigi, side-b clanking with everything alone makes him leauges better than his melee incarnation, you cant say he didn't get buffs) has no problems vs most of the cast.
Ganon is bad because he litterally cant approach, has no reason to make the opponent want to approach, and has a slow and telegraphed recovery. He doesn't even punish that hard, most of the time he gets 1-2 hits that do 40% and then has to reset the situation because he is slow and can't catch back up.
Wolf is like what a Space Animal -should- be IMO. He has tons of pressure, high tech ceiling, but has to actually work for those kills. When he is on a tear he really messes people up, but at the same time can be just as easily bodied on a punish.
Wolf is great. I think he's really well-designed and fun to play as and against. Definitely has a solid upper-mid-to-high placing in the game and when it becomes more disadvantageous to be above someone, he'll be better.
I wouldn't change anything about him. I wish that fsmashing a shield that's right by the ledge didn't push you off the ledge, but I don't know how that would be fixed.
Projectiles should be nerfed: Mario Fireballs/Pills (too safe, too much hit stun and shield stun), Lucas PK Freeze (auto combo from half the stage away, much?), Samus missiles (the only nerf they need is to stale), Link Boomerang (probably the most important one. Way too good. Hit stun, shield stun, safe, strong, combo: boomerang into boomerang into boomerang. TOO SAFE!!!), Falco lasers (people should be able to attack through them, otherwise they are fine.), Pit arrows (that's a lot of hit stun you got there, eh Pit?). Fox's lasers on the other hand: They are way too weak.
Projectiles should be nerfed: Mario Fireballs/Pills (too safe, too much hit stun and shield stun), Lucas PK Freeze (auto combo from half the stage away, much?), Samus missiles (the only nerf they need is to stale), Link Boomerang (probably the most important one. Way too good. Hit stun, shield stun, safe, strong, combo: boomerang into boomerang into boomerang. TOO SAFE!!!), Falco lasers (people should be able to attack through them, otherwise they are fine.), Pit arrows (that's a lot of hit stun you got there, eh Pit?). Fox's lasers on the other hand: They are way too weak.
Yesss. Projectiles need to be situationally useful, they can even be amazing tools (Sheik's needles), but they shouldn't be as ****ing brainless as they are now - Mario's fireballs do everything, its obnoxious how often you see good players just toss out a fireball as a mid-range poke that covers retreating options like backwards wavedash oos. Pits arrows are like, borderline not terrible, the rest of his great (and endless) kit makes them stupid. Link's projectiles are dumb in a similar way, his normals are way too solid and safe when they're spaced right - which his boomerang makes super easy with how it controls space and mediates your ability to approach and grab. did I mention mario's fireballs?
IMO sheik's needles are a good example of a solid top tier projectile. Not that everyone needs them - they'd be straight broken on a lot of characters. They fit into her kit really well though. Fox's lasers are also pretty cool, if you can stop hating fox long enough to think about it, but seeing as shine is also a good enough anti-camper tool its weird that he needs lasers to actively pressure campers rather than just neutralization of projectile spam via shine.
Its a massive issue that a projectile as broken as falco's laser has become more or less outclassed in PM. we're at the point where Marth needs a projectile to compete. Actually, his cape should swish around and deflect projectiles that hit him from behind during his dashdance (please don't really do this)
it'll be pretty difficult for them to become 100% bull, because their precision is of samus SWD levels, and messing it up means an SD. could happen eventually, but honestly it's his only consistent low-% kill move where his spacy brethren has far more consistent and quicker ways of killing nerds off, so it works out
but honestly it's his only consistent low-% kill move where his spacy brethren has far more consistent and quicker ways of killing nerds off, so it works out
Unless you get downaired offstage or get shine killed off the top Falco really isn't killing you that early. Fsmash is nothing special in PM, bair and dsmash aren't that strong, upsmash is weak and dtilt isn't the most practical move.
Between Dsmash, Fsmash, Usmash (better than Falco's set), bair (worse move overall than Falco's), fair (tipper is a stronger aerial hit than anything Falco has) and side-B (potentially endless setups) I don't think Wolf is really worse at killing than Falco.
Heck I'd say he probably has an easier time comboing into them on top of Fsmash possibly being the best smash in neutral ever.
Wolf is secretly the stronkest spacie.
If nair could trade well he'd be S+ tier (the + is for all the extra style he has).
Can't wait for 3.5, his only bad MU's are going to be less jank and more spank.
I mean... Kirby could be debatable, but what sense of skill are we talking? The rest have tech, some much more than others, but skill wise I would say the worse characters in the game take more skill to win. Tech=/=skill
Wolf is secretly the stronkest spacie.
If nair could trade well he'd be S+ tier (the + is for all the extra style he has).
Can't wait for 3.5, his only bad MU's are going to be less jank and more spank.
I said that there would be a restriction to 1 color per pikmin, so Olimar would only be able to use 1 purple and 1 blue. Furthermore, if purple and blues are that much better than the others, then the balance between each color should be addressed. Once the RNG problem is dealt with, then balancing out the colors could easily be done afterwards.
I also don't see why there needs to be such variance on normals anyways. No other character has such variance in their normals either (except for Peach's forward smash, as far as I know). Special attacks are more understandable, but I personally prefer to have reliability when it comes to normal attacks (aerials/ grabs/ smash attacks).
Even if others don't think this way, dealing with RNG effectively, and then dealing with the balance between colors is an effective way to deal with Olimar's problem.
My b
That proposal would still be bad, b/c 2/5 Pikmin are good
Yea, that's the one thing Olimar needs most, effective pikmin. If they all, were at least decent, RNG would not be a problem.
it'll be pretty difficult for them to become 100% bull, because their precision is of samus SWD levels, and messing it up means an SD. could happen eventually, but honestly it's his only consistent low-% kill move where his spacy brethren has far more consistent and quicker ways of killing nerds off, so it works out
Actually in my opinion Wolf doesn't have terrible kill options. He doesn't have an Up-Smash that kills ~80% or a powerful spike/F-Smash but he has quite a few options.
- He has mixups between D-Throw and B-Throw that lead to kill moves (they aren't that fast but still and does Wolf get anything special from his D-Throw at decent percents? Tech chase and maybe Bair? His tech chase be pretty on point with laser, F-Smash, and stuff though).
- D-Smash (and F-Smash to a more knockback, worse angle extent) has a pretty amazing angle and the knockback scales pretty well.
- His shine and dash attack lead into some pretty good stuff.
- Dair, even while meteor cancelled is pretty good especially considering he can take ledge -> Shine -> Bair/Dair and stuff.
- Bair gets the person offstage, Fair sweetspot is okay (I think? Don't remember actually).
- He has shine to stuff.
- Can hit into Side B from quite a bit of stuff.
When 3.5 comes and overall recovery nerfs happen some of this stuff will become even better. Assuming none of this stuff is changed anyway.
I just hope more characters have Zard level recovery. Like, I feel he has the perfect medium between "big reach" and "vulnerablity". With his two jumps and glide, he can cover a huge distance, but he can only jump twice before he loses those options, and if he glides early he not only loses his glide until you hit the ground when hit, but loses both his jumps. He then also has a Wavebounce Side B to make it back, but that leaves him open, and finally his only option is to just shoot for an Up B.
Essentially his tools are powerful yet limited in that you can only use them pretty much once each. That to me seems like a good balance for an edge guarding situation where you have options to get back, but each correct read by the guarder nets bigger rewards as the recovering character loses options.
I just hope more characters have Zard level recovery. Like, I feel he has the perfect medium between "big reach" and "vulnerablity". With his two jumps and glide, he can cover a huge distance, but he can only jump twice before he loses those options, and if he glides early he not only loses his glide until you hit the ground when hit, but loses both his jumps. He then also has a Wavebounce Side B to make it back, but that leaves him open, and finally his only option is to just shoot for an Up B.
Essentially his tools are powerful yet limited in that you can only use them pretty much once each. That to me seems like a good balance for an edge guarding situation where you have options to get back, but each correct read by the guarder nets bigger rewards as the recovering character loses options.
I mean... Kirby could be debatable, but what sense of skill are we talking? The rest have tech, some much more than others, but skill wise I would say the worse characters in the game take more skill to win. Tech=/=skill
Just have Pit lose his. Gliding eating away your jumps is good design as it makes it a risky yet rewarding option since you know... you can cover all the distance ever with it.
Pit's bugs me since while MK still has Up B -Glide again, or his other specials, for using shuttle loop, he at least loses all like... 5 of his jumps for using it which limits him, and the shuttle loop is hard to use to recover again once you get smacked. Pit not only keeps his jumps, but can glide from the ground, jump, then glide again IIRC AND THEN do aerials directly out of it. It's kinda bonkers.
People that don't play the game and sit here and argue pointlessly on this thread sleep on olimar
Enjoy your ignorance, I have to deal with SS just playing the same no matter what the line is like, because line management isn't as important as you guys are making it out to be. Yeah, optimizing the pikmin you have is important, but when you just need to put that hitbox where the opponent is, it really doesnt matter if its yellow, blue, or purple, flowered or not. that **** hits hard non-flowered, and they flower really fast.
All he needs is pivot grabs and upsmash/uair and he is multiple times better than Ganon or ICs. He has a projectile that forces approaches and responses, has a GREAT recovery (whoever keeps saying its bad because it's "broken" should stop, if its targeting the ledge but not grabbing it, you just aren't close enough.) Disjoints and a fantastic punish game top it off.
I dont get why people say olimar is bad when he clearly has strong tools for every situation no matter what line his pikmin are in. Simple, strong sheik-like neutral with better mobility, top tier punish game, and a better than average recovery does not add up to a character being bottom 5.
Ganon is bad because he litterally cant approach, has no reason to make the opponent want to approach, and has a slow and telegraphed recovery. He doesn't even punish that hard, most of the time he gets 1-2 hits that do 40% and then has to reset the situation because he is slow and can't catch back up.
Olimar (and luigi, side-b clanking with everything alone makes him leauges better than his melee incarnation, you cant say he didn't get buffs) has no problems vs most of the cast.
Your unnecessary disrespect is unnecessary. I'm not the CT tier list. I KNOW Olimar. I love him, and I'm a big fan of SS and HBox for representing. I know he's good enough to win, but whenever it comes down to it, Falco and MK seem to have a better chance at winning so I leave him for friendlies and counterpicking Links. I know that managing pikmin is not as big an issue as I make it out to be sometimes, but it matters to me. That's my playstyle: managing pikmin to do the right moves, but I can't do that easily if I don't even know the current pikmin or the next one that I'll pluck. His recovery IS broken. Lucas's ****ing Osohe Castle rope snake is longer and more reliable! His flaws are almost unintended, like they messed up or something, and that's the ones they need to fix. Remove rng, make his antennae change colors with the current pikmin, and , my god, FIX HIS RECOVERY! If the PMDT does that, I'm totally maining him for once. I'll admit, I didn't think much when I made my list but you don't have to crap on it.
If 40% isn't a hard punish, then I don't know what is. Seriously, at least Vex beat Cruzycakes and Jreed ( top level mario and wario respectively) and went toe to toe with ZeRo w/o changing from Ganon. I mean, I've yet to see an Olimar go all the way to Grand Finals in a big tourney.
I wouldn't expect Olimar's reps to do as good as Vex. His skill at Smash is through the roof: Hbox would have to quit Melee and do PM exclusive for anyone on the Oli list to be at that level. Not really a fair comparison for both characters if you're trying to prove that one is better than the other.
Olimar is probably better than Ganon. I say probably because character discussions aren't very interesting for this specific period of the current patch. when we have the new patch somewhere glorious on the horizon.
And how often do you get to use it? And is it really better than fireballs, lasers, boomerangs, light arrows, turnips, etc. Is it just as spammable and ranged than these? How many situations would you risk harming your pikmin over a godlike up smash? Exactly.
And how often do you get to use it? And is it really better than fireballs, lasers, boomerangs, light arrows, turnips, etc. Is it just as spammable and ranged than these? How many situations would you risk harming your pikmin over a godlike up smash? Exactly.
first thing. "spammability" isnt something thatnyou need in a good projectiles. a projectile is something that flies and isnt connected to you. it doesnt meed to be spammed. most projectiles are good when spammed, but purple pikmin side b is a extremely high durability, waveland/fastfall-able that you can get nearly ANYTHING off of. and a 4-5 frame special gets you that pikmin right back. and purple doesnt die unless youre stupid and you throw it off the edge.
i just want top say that saying "exactly" like that is the most irritating, ignorant and childish thing that anyone can do in a conversation that is even CLOSE to intellectual. you just assume that i have no argument back and you are instantly the better man and won the argument. god i hate that ****. anyway
Did you guys even read my reasoning, like, at all? Olimar's combo game is crazy but his weaknesses are bigger than anything I've ever seen! Range destroys him, and MU inexperience is the primary reason he doesn't get bodied all the time.
getting "destroyed by range" is the only correct thing you said about olimars weaknesses here. and evem that isnjust matchup experience. characters with long range are his hardest matchups but 1. these are sooooo winnable because of how easy these characters are to combo and setup and 2. only like 1/5th of the game outranges him. the other matchups (unless youre a goddamn spacy or diddykong) is even or winning. hes one of the few characters that actually goes even with sonic
but here we go
this would be a problem is this was street fighter but in smash you can kill at any % and how the **** does whistling take long its one of the fastest aerials in the game
tl:dr This is a really bad tier list. The main thing you got right was Luigi's placememt lol It's time to make my 2nd tear fist!
~~~~~~~
GOD TIER
~~~~~~~
1. Pit
2. Mewtwo
3. Lucas
4. Sonic
5. Diddy Kong
6. Link
~~~~~~~
HIGH TIER
~~~~~~~
7. Mario
8. Fox
9. Wolf
10. Meta Knight
11. Zelda
12. Ivysaur
13. Falco
~~~~~~~~~~~
UPPER MID TIER
~~~~~~~~~~~
14. Ness
15. Toon Link
16. Snake
17. Samus
18. Marth
19. Ike
20. Dedede
~~~~~~
MID TIER
~~~~~~
21. Pikachu
22. R.O.B.
24. Wario
25. Squirtle
26. Bowser
27. DK
28. Roy
29. Captain Falcon
30. ZSS
31. Kirby
~~~~~~~
LOW TIER
~~~~~~~
32. Charizard
33. G&W
34. Peach
35. Sheik
36. Yoshi
37. Ganon
~~~~~~~~~~
GARBAGE TIER
~~~~~~~~~~
38. Luigi
39. Jigglypuff
40. Olimar
41. Ice Climbers
I tried to reason some things out but my tier list just ended up like this.
first thing. "spammability" isnt something thatnyou need in a good projectiles. a projectile is something that flies and isnt connected to you. it doesnt meed to be spammed. most projectiles are good when spammed, but purple pikmin side b is a extremely high durability, waveland/fastfall-able that you can get nearly ANYTHING off of. and a 4-5 frame special gets you that pikmin right back. and purple doesnt die unless youre stupid and you throw it off the edge.
i just want top say that saying "exactly" like that is the most irritating, ignorant and childish thing that anyone can do in a conversation that is even CLOSE to intellectual. you just assume that i have no argument back and you are instantly the better man and won the argument. god i hate that ****. anyway
getting "destroyed by range" is the only correct thing you said about olimars weaknesses here. and evem that isnjust matchup experience. characters with long range are his hardest matchups but 1. these are sooooo winnable because of how easy these characters are to combo and setup and 2. only like 1/5th of the game outranges him. the other matchups (unless youre a goddamn spacy or diddykong) is even or winning. hes one of the few characters that actually goes even with sonic
but here we go
stop exagerrating his recovery's brokiness please. if you arent latching on, then you arent in range. simple.
why the **** would this matter if you want to play a character learn about it wtf
this would be a problem is this was street fighter but in smash you can kill at any % and how the **** does whistling take long its one of the fastest aerials in the game
pikmin dont die if youre smart. this is just s skill cap thing
elaborate please stop being vague
one of the best if not the best pivot grabs in the game that happens to lead into ~60% combos and kills at high percent is average?
again, he goes even with almost every character without a sword. his matchup ratio overall is jusst over even
Now that I think about it, Wolf's Blaster is a lot like Olimar's purple side b. It's not only spammability that's the problem, it's kinda hard to find an oppprtunity for it with most characters. You are seriously overthinking that: I never meant the whole better man thing. Calm down!
So is he not fairly easy to combo and light? Or luck based?
It really is unfair sometimes when it doesn't latch even though anybody with a half a brain will think it will. And ALL other tethers are way better.
I'm saying it's hard to constantly manage your pikmin. Calm down!
If someone is constantly pressuring and comboing Olimar, he won't have a chance for his pikmin to flower. And how many times have you accidently mashed down b or b too much.
I said they CAN die, not they they will always die plus they die sometimes anyway even if your SS.
Pikmin throw can be almost useless if a character like Meta Knight can just nair or something to remove them and that may shorten his recovery. I meant that Olimar feels like he lacks fluidity.
Ganon can do that in 3 hits, Link has the craziest auto combos on the planet, Pit can combo you from one side of the stage to the other and back, Wolf can end your stock really fast if he ends his combo with a Wolf Flash, Meta Knight can continue combos like a maniac with his techchases IDCs extra jumps and dair, Lucas is beyond crazy and everything combos into anything( same with Diddy), Yoshi has super fast DJC aerials and eggs and all kinds of weird stuff, Falcon's knee hits like a home run bat and he can finish his great combos with it at anytime, DK will destroy you if he gets a throw, Squirtle has shell shifts and hydro pivots and wave dashes to make his combos so he can constantly be attacking while slipping, Dedede can gimp you like no one's buisness...
