Tier List Speculation

[SpiderMad]

Video evidence? Luigi's SH is slow as balls so there's no way he's throwing out aerials fast enough that you can't shield grab him. Hitboxes disappear when they hit a shield, so lingering or not his nair's not doing anything.

I would have some of him and Squirtle just nearly breaking shields but the replays are gone, they both work similarly like people mentioned. They got an almost complete assortment of double aerials of almost every combination in a SH (and thus also including WL and DJ out of most of the 1st aerial). You can SH Fair with Squirtle and pass through them then Dair.

It also just so happens they appear in sequence in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=101

And most people suck at getting the 1st aerial frame perfect, let alone the 2nd.

yoshi can still be shield poked in this game because brawl was ********

Is that why I sometimes get shield poked when I have a totally full shield with other characters too? I haven't seen it happen to Yoshi though

And would I be wrong to believe Kirby has just as good of tech chase on certain characters with D-throw as Sheik?

 

[Ripple]

if a hitbox hits a hurtbox of a character and nothing else, it will hit that character regardless of whether or not the shield is up, even if its frame 1.

something is probably just barely clipping your feet or head.

yoshi's feet stick out under his shield just barely, but they are invisible.

 

[Player -0]

But is Link REALLY better than Mario?

In my opinion Mario is better.

 

[DMG]

Link deserves to die in a fiery pit of shame. Much more than Mario does.

 

[Soft Serve]

Your unnecessary disrespect is unnecessary. I didn't think much when I made my list but you don't have to crap on it.

I guess I was a bit more abrasive, but I was at least saying WHY I disagreed. I don't see how that has more "unnecessary disrespect" than you responding to people's lists, putting in multiple faces and then saying "tbh I think this is a really bad list" without justification or promoting arguments.
If you didn't put much thought into your 3 lists than what justifies trying to shut down Neon's list without actual counterpoints besides "X character is actually better/worse than you put them at"

If 40% isn't a hard punish, then I don't know what is.

Theres more to a punish game than just %, as said in the section you took that number from, ganon may net a few strong hits but thats all he gets before he sends them across the stage. Strong punish games generally do good damage and leave the attacker still in a position where he has the advantage, be it a juggle situation or a tech chase when the chaser has the speed to keep up and follow up. Its more than just %, because stocks can be taken without much %, and stage control/presence is far more important.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I consider a strong punish you getting a hit, and when your hitconfirms end, your opponent is either KOed, off stage, or you're in a position where the opponent playing neutral will get punished.

 

[jtm94]

Ganon's strong punish is downthrow>downthrow>downthrow>downthrow>downthrow>KO. If they aren't KOd then they are off stage and disadvantaged.

That's kind of how DK is. He is large and wonky, but once he lands a hit all DKs I see have their follow-up game on point and just string everything together.

Mario vs Link.... On the topic of punish game Mario has more build-a-bear combos and gets more % out of Dthrow and can usually take you to the edge. He has better movement and a projectile that covers more distance than any other projectile because of how perfect it bounces and how far it goes. Link has more versatility with projectiles, and boomerang hit confirms into things better than fireball, but again Link is slower. Link can string combos like dash attack into bair regrab dthrow into bair bair, but they usually only end in % because he can't land his KO moves unless he gets a throw, read, or hits a projectile. Mario's dtilt has UNGODLY hit stun so it starts going into fair right after he stops being able to combo into it easily around 80/90%. I would also argue that Mario's recovery is much harder to edgeguard because of invincibility frames on UpB and the fact that you can't crouch UpB at all along with cape stalling, fireballs, and wall jumps. Link has bombs and tethers which are dumb now, but his isn't stupid long like some other characters.... You can just grab ledge against Link, force the jump on and hit him. Or just use ledge invincibility to hit him out of UpB.

 

[Player -0]

You can just grab ledge against Link, force the jump on and hit him. Or just use ledge invincibility to hit him out of UpB.

In 3.02 it's pretty hard to do because of how quickly they reel in + how little lag they have after forced jump. You can get a hit without too much trouble but it'll send them towards the center of the stage (unless you're 100+% and accidentally don't ledgedash or ledgehop aerial [which even for some characters they have trouble doing this]).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Overall I think that Mario is a stronger character than Link, he has a more reliable CC game which can lead into more things, his grab game is just as good as Link's (arguable but I think it's in Mario's favor), his projectile is less flexible but it covers him so well and can be used to camp really effectively, it's also more spammable longer ranged. His recovery is worse than Link's (arguable) but still amazing. Can approach much better than Link, who "has" to play at a mid range game which can get "blown" up by quicker characters.

He has some reliable kill moves with D-Throw/U-Throw -> Fair, B-Throw even later if it gets that bad, Fair, Cape (I guess not reliable but still good), Bair's amazing angle + decent knockback, CC -> F-Smash/D-Smash, most of his Up-Air combos lead into Fair.

Link has his aerials (Nair at later percents and Bair doesn't), spin2winscrublol, CC D-Smash, boomerang into most things (later percents substitute Up Air for Dair but still kills lol), F-Smash isn't that great, Arrows can be pretty good for gimps, Nair gimps too, Grab -> Dair/Up Air (I think Up-Throw kills like, 200% on floaties but why would you do that lol).

Am I missing anything?

 

[leekslap]

I guess I was a bit more abrasive, but I was at least saying WHY I disagreed. I don't see how that has more "unnecessary disrespect" than you responding to people's lists, putting in multiple faces and then saying "tbh I think this is a really bad list" without justification or promoting arguments.
If you didn't put much thought into your 3 lists than what justifies trying to shut down Neon's list without actual counterpoints besides "X character is actually better/worse than you put them at"

Theres more to a punish game than just %, as said in the section you took that number from, ganon may net a few strong hits but thats all he gets before he sends them across the stage. Strong punish games generally do good damage and leave the attacker still in a position where he has the advantage, be it a juggle situation or a tech chase when the chaser has the speed to keep up and follow up. Its more than just %, because stocks can be taken without much %, and stage control/presence is far more important.

I actually said Neon's list was good, it was anothers's I shut down. I gave a lot of thought to my tier lists, I had to theory craft, and research, and watch videos and stuff and I am really happy with my third list. I could give reasons but I just didn't have enough time.

An opponent being off stage after 3 or 4 hits that do about 16% with high knockback fits your definition perfectly. Since when was being edgeguarded a bad thing? After that, unless you are Meta Knight or something, a fair or dair offstage should be enough to gimp. So it also fits you saying percent doesn't matter. And he has the most chaingrabs in the game. Ganon's honestly more of a sleeper than Olimar!

 

[DMG]

Mario probably has the most CG's in the game, if you don't count IC's janky jank-iness

 

[leekslap]

Mario probably has the most CG's in the game, if you don't count IC's janky jank-iness

Ganon's last a lot longer than Mario's because it has less knockback and places the victim perfectly so that they can barely DI or escape. If only his grab range weren't so pathetic. And he needs some armor frames or something for projectiles. And he needs an approach. Of course I wasn't counting the Icies lol!

 

[SpiderMad]

Dr. Mario in Melee at least could CG a Spacie with Up-throw then switch to D-throw lol

 

[DMG]

People can get out of Ganon CG's sooner if they fly straight above him/slightly in front of him. You get the free hit, but just like people going straight up on Marth or Mario throws, they will get out quicker. His CG is phenomenal, but Mario probably edges him out by a bit for having Dthrow + Uthrow as viable options

On heavier and FF characters at low %, DI behind messes up the CG for Ganon (I think Falco for example needs like 20% or something before you can do a super frame tight CG on him, based on what I remember from Melee), while Mario can shift to Uthrow for some of them and have no issues.

 

[howbadisbad]

People can get out of Ganon CG's sooner if they fly straight above him/slightly in front of him. You get the free hit, but just like people going straight up on Marth or Mario throws, they will get out quicker. His CG is phenomenal, but Mario probably edges him out by a bit for having Dthrow + Uthrow as viable options

On heavier and FF characters at low %, DI behind messes up the CG for Ganon (I think Falco for example needs like 20% or something before you can do a super frame tight CG on him, based on what I remember from Melee), while Mario can shift to Uthrow for some of them and have no issues.

Pretty sure you can do upthrow on spacies with ganon to get to a percent where dthrow is easier in pm

or my friends are bad

 

[DMG]

I dunno how well it works in PM. I'm pretty sure it's better than the Melee iteration, but I don't tend to use it or see it at really low %. Usually after 30%, which iirc Dthrow would be working already on them. Would be worth testing a bit

 

[JesteRace]

Top Tier: Pit, Mewtwo, Lucas, Diddy, Metaknight, Mario, Sonic, Link, Falco, Fox

Mid Tier: Everyone else

Bottom Tier: Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers

 

[SpiderMad]

Almost, you need to conform just a little bit more

 

[Circle_Breaker]

S tier - need broken recovery, broken combo game, and either a broken projectile or some other gdlk gimmick

Pit - obnoxiously consistent 0-death on everyone. Amazing projectile. Solid cg. P:M recovery, and can do anything out of glide.

Mewtwo - autocombos fastfallers. Ignores stage control. Has Marth hitboxes on top of his projectile, command grab, teleport. P:M recovery.

Diddy - deep kong. Literally the dumbest recovery in smash history because of barrel projectile ON PUNISH. Extra jump that refreshes. Combos hard and has bananas. Not actually an S tier though.

Mario - easiest combo game, I shouldn't be able to pick up a character once a week for a match and do what I do with mario. Ridiculous recovery, too nonlinear, should not exist. Cape stall, upB wall jump, downB - choose 1 and nerf. Also why is upB so deceptively massive. Same with cape, and most of his other moves. Hit boxes are on steroids. Fireball.

Lucas - probably will have best combo game one day. shield breaker. Fairly easy spike at a good angle. Recovery is silly.

S-:

Sonic - P:M recovery. ******** neutral game, perhaps best for most matchups. broken combo game.

A+:

Metaknight - Really good recovery, really easy rushdown, really easy combos. Sword is a little too big but otherwise an okay character.

Link - very many tools. Good normals, great projectiles, great recovery. Slightly unexciting :|

Fox - still is fox. Really average recovery now though which matters.

Luigi - the crouching tiger/hidden dragon, the late metagame god. One day he will choose a mortal to represent his fullest potential and the smash world will cower

Ness - I really hate the way it feels to get hit by PK fire

 

[leekslap]

S tier - need broken recovery, broken combo game, and either a broken projectile or some other gdlk gimmick

Pit - obnoxiously consistent 0-death on everyone. Amazing projectile. Solid cg. P:M recovery, and can do anything out of glide.

Mewtwo - autocombos fastfallers. Ignores stage control. Has Marth hitboxes on top of his projectile, command grab, teleport. P:M recovery.

Diddy - deep kong. Literally the dumbest recovery in smash history because of barrel projectile ON PUNISH. Extra jump that refreshes. Combos hard and has bananas. Not actually an S tier though.

Mario - easiest combo game, I shouldn't be able to pick up a character once a week for a match and do what I do with mario. Ridiculous recovery, too nonlinear, should not exist. Cape stall, upB wall jump, downB - choose 1 and nerf. Also why is upB so deceptively massive. Same with cape, and most of his other moves. Hit boxes are on steroids. Fireball.

Lucas - probably will have best combo game one day. shield breaker. Fairly easy spike at a good angle. Recovery is silly.

S-:

Sonic - P:M recovery. ******** neutral game, perhaps best for most matchups. broken combo game.

A+:

Metaknight - Really good recovery, really easy rushdown, really easy combos. Sword is a little too big but otherwise an okay character.

Link - very many tools. Good normals, great projectiles, great recovery. Slightly unexciting :|

Fox - still is fox. Really average recovery now though which matters.

Luigi - the crouching tiger/hidden dragon, the late metagame god. One day he will choose a mortal to represent his fullest potential and the smash world will cower

Ness - I really hate the way it feels to get hit by PK fire

Mario isn't nearly as broken as Sonic, what are you talking about? Sonic has an unbelievable neutral game, great recovvery that let's him go alot deeper than you'd think, his combos are amazing, his super fast movement mitigates his projectile eweakness A LOT, Wizzy has consistently being top 5 or 8 at tournaments. Mario is weak to range and disjoints because it defeats his fireballs, let's him get gimped A LOT easier, and makes it harder to approach. Very mobile characters can dodge his fireballs. If a player is good at powershielding he gets weaker. Some characters, like Bowser and Lucas can just absorb the fireballs. Just because a character is easy to use doesn't mean he's broken. If anything he needs super tiny tweaks like making his cape slower to make it more punishable, and nerfing up b

 

[Deleted member]

as much as i hate mario, he's nowhere near as stupid as sonic.

everyone putting link on par or above mario, you guys need to start grabbing more. fyi grabs are the key conversion of choice at high level play, and link's grab is butt awful. mario's grab has a very real chance to kill you at almost any damage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Please stop using the word autocombo you are triggering me

 

[leekslap]

as much as i hate mario, he's nowhere near as stupid as sonic.

everyone putting link on par or above mario, you guys need to start grabbing more. fyi grabs are the key conversion of choice at high level play, and link's grab is butt awful. mario's grab has a very real chance to kill you at almost any damage.

What are you saying? Down throw to dair is a riduculously strong and almost guarented if you follow DI( which is super easy ). And Link's grab range greatly surpasses Mario's and he doesn't really need anything other than a super strong guarenteed kill. Mario's range is meh, but Link's is slightly less than Marth, except, since it has no tipper, it's ALWAYS safe. Grounded up b is riduculous for gimping, it's hard to punish, lingers without weakening and has more range than you'd think. His boomerang is fast, covers many options even if whiffed, and is great for autocombos. His arrow is godlike for gimping and getting the opponent away from you. His bombs are even more controllable than his other specials, help his recovery, makes his movement trippier, and are all around fodlike. His dash attack literally combos into anything. His up air is great for juggling. His fair is multipurpose with a lot of range too. Nair is your usual great sex kick. Forward tilt and down tilt are good for walling the opponet on the ground. Up tilt is also good for comboing. Down smash is possibly his best smash attack as usual with down smashes. Forward smash has awesome power, especially if linked together. His bomb jumps cover so much distance and you can even DI the hit from the bomb! It could be argued that it's predictable but you can be smart and bomb jump in a strange way. His supposed bad MUs are totally outmatched. Mario gets defeated by Marth and Link and Marth have many things in common. Fox gets totally destroyed by his up b, projectiles, and combos. Same with Falco but he's harder because of his lasers. Olimar can deal with projectiles and Link is combo food for Olimar, but he gets outprioritized. If anything, ZSS would be a slight disadvantage because a, she has transcendent projectiles, b, she can combo Link like no ones buisness, c, her mobility allows her to evade projectiles easier than most, d, she can keep up range-wise, and d, she is floatyish so that equals harder to combo, but you'd have to be Oro to really show it's bad for Link.

 

[Player -0]

Please read my earlier post explaining everything why I thought Mario is better than Link and then respond. You seem to have ignored it completely and continued misinforming people.

Mario has a positive MU against Marth probably.

Edit - Also format your posts somehow please.

 

[Comprehend13]

You heard it here first
Link totally outmatches Fox

 

[1FD]

Please read my earlier post explaining everything why I thought Mario is better than Link and then respond. You seem to have ignored it completely and continued misinforming people.


Mario has a positive MU against Marth probably.

Edit - Also format your posts somehow please.

^For sure this.
I read the last few pages and leekslap reminds me of that tretorus guy who basically posted a bunch that didn't seem like he would read anything but was stern on some idea, then made a list every week that was basically a copy-paste of the most recent discussion + most recent stream lol
"fact that Oli is bottom 2"
"discussion on oli"
"list a day later as barely bottom 1/4"

That might sound mean but I just want to point out that if you're gonna post, REALLY look into what you're talking about before talking about what you know. So you're not just spewing misinformed stuff and changing that info you're spewing daily from one thing to another based on what people clear up back.
Like REALLY, and that looking into it can even be asking others thoughts before sharing your own.
Nobody does that that well though, not even me and I preached it just now. TOTALLY RUIN EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE

Even so though, soft serve posted vids of SS and WOW it's so cool how even the best (or good whatever) players with characters are still making so many obvious mistakes.
Like he got punish OVER and OVER again in the same situations. Simple dthrow Usmash Fair (all good) then falling with another Fair trying to hit but they grab the ledge or he straight up misses and eats a massive combo. OVER and OVER the same second Fair missing for being greedy or something haha!
Even prof pro against ct zero got pegged by like 4 nairs a match for trying to shieldgrab NairShinefadingNairs over and over. So much game to work on even with the most creative and adapty players. So awesome that this game is growing with such a tight community too.

If Yoshi is terrible as is, then I would not mind him staying terrible one bit.

so truth
Stupid character can djc invincible aerials from the ledge into the best grab game ever into death combos

Luigi - the crouching tiger/hidden dragon, the late metagame god. One day he will choose a mortal to represent his fullest potential and the smash world will cower

Ness - I really hate the way it feels to get hit by PK fire

I hate Ness too

And I took my own advice and looked into this hard just now
I just played 2 full 8 minute matches with a character I don't like
in a patch I don't want to play anymore
to learn a tech I'll never make any use of
to record it and show people here what they might not have seen before
but I don't know how to upload things and my bro isn't around to show me how to make gifs
FLM
I'd ban both of these characters if I ever ran a tourney just cause they're stupid with Yoshi

BUT yes, Luigi is the latest metagame god ever.
When a weegee is on point, there's no beating it I swear
You need to either be a go-for-the-gold character like DK or Roy with a kill-them-before-they-kill you mentality or just be a brick like a Snake or Yoshi and not let Luigi do anything. Can't play whiff-and-punish against a character that's always a threat and never has to commit. Wavescuttling apparently is the name of this stupid PM thing that topped him off too. Only seen a bit of it in use by 2 locals but the one who uses it lots is a scrub so doesn't yet know HOW to use it. But **** bamsey beat 2 of the 5 MELEE gods with luigi in melee in like 2010 (i only found out it was 2 because of spidermad so thanks) and luigi only got better matchups against the top tiers in PM and then freaking scuttling.

I don't see how he can be bad

Like I need to get this stuff uploaded somehow to show it because I don't think anyone GETS it yet.
I don't play the character and can't control him for **** and doing it just feels wrong but wtf can he do scuttling for?
You can WD towards someone... crawl backwards for a single frame... and do ANYTHING in WD momentum AWAY from a person without needing to WD. And keep doing it, it's like a pez dispenser of grabs and attacks that will combo you to death if you get clipped and the only way to get around it is like jump or run. You can do it with shield too, and even jab + ftilt someone in the same momentum without doing a second WD.

Actually in my opinion Wolf doesn't have terrible kill options. He doesn't have an Up-Smash that kills ~80% or a powerful spike/F-Smash but he has quite a few options.

- He has mixups between D-Throw and B-Throw that lead to kill moves (they aren't that fast but still and does Wolf get anything special from his D-Throw at decent percents? Tech chase and maybe Bair? His tech chase be pretty on point with laser, F-Smash, and stuff though).
- D-Smash (and F-Smash to a more knockback, worse angle extent) has a pretty amazing angle and the knockback scales pretty well.
- His shine and dash attack lead into some pretty good stuff.
- Dair, even while meteor cancelled is pretty good especially considering he can take ledge -> Shine -> Bair/Dair and stuff.
- Bair gets the person offstage, Fair sweetspot is okay (I think? Don't remember actually).
- He has shine to stuff.
- Can hit into Side B from quite a bit of stuff.

You forgot the beastiest which is Uthrow
and sideb flash should be #1 mentioned not the last point like come on

+1 To Wolf being a well designed character. Shortened Side-B kills may become bull**** eventually though.

It already is bull**** but it's not a thing yet. Finishing combos early should be a thing for more wolf players but there are so many dropped things. Even when I don't end a combo in flash I KNOW there was a way and instantly know how I COULD have. Not because of the DI or anything, but because I straight up used a move that didn't work out or whatever. There is ALWAYS a way to end in side b. I wasn't around for it but in 2.1/2.5 there were locals who make a regional joke here that bamesy doesn't have any other moves because the first thing he practiced with wolf was setting up Flash, which meant setting up utilts and uairs to LAND the Flash, which meant setting up ways of setting up THOSE moves, etc. That's still like all he does.
After the dat wolf thread and discussions everywhere there was even another wc canada person named Meta that made a thread about literally JUST FLASHING MORE lol.
FLASH MORE
But that lingering of being a spazzy-chaotic-fox style is lingering with so many people just flailing with the character. Even prof pro was one of them. So glad he did awesome stuff with a character, wish those still on wolf would branch out a bit.

Here I am being all hussy fussy and finessy like a shiek or something and not liking the rest of the wolf pack, but it hurts my face how EASY and OBVIOUS it is to end in side bs especially when you can pause 5 times in any combo to point out when it could've been done with way better results than whatever the player did, but how so few are doing it.
Maybe when edgegame is more of a thing in 3.5 people will end combos earlier and aim for flash use more.

Nobody can outmatch my reckless post formatting don't even try


Crap this isn't 3.5 but I'm home for tonight so posted
Should go to sleep gotta leave again
I'll try editing this with that footage tomorow before I go
**** ness that's the last character I played against in pm and I lost so I'll be salty unti lI play again

 

[leekslap]

In 3.02 it's pretty hard to d
Overall I think that Mario is a stronger character than Link, he has a more reliable CC game which can lead into more things, his grab game is just as good as Link's (arguable but I think it's in Mario's favor), his projectile is less flexible but it covers him so well and can be used to camp really effectively, it's also more spammable longer ranged. His recovery is worse than Link's (arguable) but still amazing. Can approach much better than Link, who "has" to play at a mid range game which can get "blown" up by quicker characters.

He has some reliable kill moves with D-Throw/U-Throw -> Fair, B-Throw even later if it gets that bad, Fair, Cape (I guess not reliable but still good), Bair's amazing angle + decent knockback, CC -> F-Smash/D-Smash, most of his Up-Air combos lead into Fair.

Link has his aerials (Nair at later percents and Bair doesn't), spin2winscrublol, CC D-Smash, boomerang into most things (later percents substitute Up Air for Dair but still kills lol), F-Smash isn't that great, Arrows can be pretty good for gimps, Nair gimps too, Grab -> Dair/Up Air (I think Up-Throw kills like, 200% on floaties but why would you do that lol).

Am I missing anything?

CC doesn't matter with Link since he can just up b OoS and destroy them. And isn't Link heavier than Mario? I mean if it has to be CC related, down tilt sends them straight up for comboing. It's so damn easy to just powershield Mario'a fireballs. So many hitboxes are coming at you with the sword and the boomerang and the bomb and the arrow, it's impossible to dodge them all espcially against that up and coming Link champion that still doesn't exist. Link doesn't need to approach lol! He can just projectiles you and space attacks if he has to. And if he is fighting against a fast small character, more than likely he will be able to outrange them, outprioritize them, and kill them easily with a number of mentioned setups. Falco is the only one who is even with Link.

I already mentioned his kill moves and that he is one of the most potent w/o going deep edgeguarder with his projectiles and up b. It's crazy easy to DI Mario's back throw, and who wouldn't DI down throw? I know it's hard to, but if you have the smallesmallest amount o Mario MU xpierience, don't get grabbed would be in your mind. Up air to fair WTF show footage even though I have the feeling you forgot DI here too. Down smash and bair aare avoidable if you are smart.

 

[Player -0]

CC destroys spin2winlolyourscrubbinessisshowing at low percents. Mario's D-Smash sends at a much more favorable angle than Link's when it doesn't outright kill. Mario can CC grab or D-Tilt for combos if he needs to. Saying Mario's fireballs are easy to powershield while Link's are harder to powershield is your own bias, they just act differently. The main thing that's difficult is the boomerang, Zair, and Bombs. Those aren't even that bad.

Mario doesn't need to approach that hard either, have you watched M2K?

Link is not one of the most potent characters without going deep. He has arrows pretty much. Boomerang pops up unless you hit at the end. Bomb pops up too. His Nair and Arrow are his best gimping tools, spin2winscrublol is only if the person didn't sweetspot.

Mario's B-Throw still kills even with DI at ~180%, you can follow DI for Down Throw like you can with Link. You said that not getting grabbed would be in your mind, you could say the exact same thing for Link, Mario still gets grabs anyway. Up Air to Fair happens frequently enough, I'm not going to find a video right now, DI doesn't always work if Mario is closer to the ground. Your last statement is hilarious.

Seriously, stop spreading incorrect information.

Edit - I'm pretty sure Falco isn't the only one even with Link. Link doesn't win all of his matchups.

 

[PlateProp]

Shine is a gimmick.

or something

everything is a gimmick idfk

True fatherly wisdom

 

[JOE!]

True fatherly wisdom

Pretty much this. Gimmicks are all about perspective. Falco for example is somebody I find gimmicky as I do not have a melee background. He has unstoppable lasers, a Dair of the gods, a shine, and essentially had autocombos before they were cool. However, melee vets are fine with him because they have gotten used to Falco. The same situation then occurs when fighting PM characters where they suddenly have "gimmicks" due to inexperience vs them, not because it is truly janky.

Though to be fair, Falco is annoying as **** lol

 

[leekslap]

CC destroys spin2winlolyourscrubbinessisshowing at low percents. Mario's D-Smash sends at a much more favorable angle than Link's when it doesn't outright kill. Mario can CC grab or D-Tilt for combos if he needs to. Saying Mario's fireballs are easy to powershield while Link's are harder to powershield is your own bias, they just act differently. The main thing that's difficult is the boomerang, Zair, and Bombs. Those aren't even that bad.

Mario doesn't need to approach that hard either, have you watched M2K?

Link is not one of the most potent characters without going deep. He has arrows pretty much. Boomerang pops up unless you hit at the end. Bomb pops up too. His Nair and Arrow are his best gimping tools, spin2winscrublol is only if the person didn't sweetspot.

Mario's B-Throw still kills even with DI at ~180%, you can follow DI for Down Throw like you can with Link. You said that not getting grabbed would be in your mind, you could say the exact same thing for Link, Mario still gets grabs anyway. Up Air to Fair happens frequently enough, I'm not going to find a video right now, DI doesn't always work if Mario is closer to the ground. Your last statement is hilarious.

Seriously, stop spreading incorrect information.

Edit - I'm pretty sure Falco isn't the only one even with Link. Link doesn't win all of his matchups.

OK I give up . They both are good and do crazy stuff but the main difrerence is that Mario has weaknesses while Link doesn't really have a big glaring one. And calm down, I'm not a troll.

 

[Stalled]

What are mario's weaknesses exactly?

 

[B.W.]

Link has weaknesses in his mobility. Once you get in Link's bubble he's in trouble. He gets combo'd much harder than Mario does, thanks to Mario being floatier. He's also confined to playing a mid/long range game, where Mario can play pretty much whatever he wants.

 

[Paradoxium]

OK I give up . They both are good and do crazy stuff but the main difrerence is that Mario has weaknesses while Link doesn't really have a big glaring one. And calm down, I'm not a troll.

Link has huge weaknesses

combo food, inability to deal with pressure, slow grab, slow mobility, and poor close range combat

Now those are some glaring weaknesses that puts Link behind Mario

 

[Deleted member]

yeah link drops off really hard vs good offensive play. i don't think i can say anything that hasn't been already said here, link is good for sure and has some decent attributes but like... idk i think he's fine.

 

[Zx2963]

What are you guys talking about, Sonic is fine. He's exactly how Sonic is supposed to be

 

[leekslap]

What are mario's weaknesses exactly?

Mainly range since he gets gimped easier, can't spam fireballs, and has a really hard time approaching. Mobile and fast characters like Captain Falcon can dodge fireballs. Good edgeguarders can punish his stalls and gimp him. Powershielding is an important tactic against Mario. Characters with a reflector or absorber like spacies ( including Lucas) and Bowser can at least deal with his fireballs.

Link has huge weaknesses

combo food, inability to deal with pressure, slow grab, slow mobility, and poor close range combat

Now those are some glaring weaknesses that puts Link behind Mario

So you are telling me a sword, projectiles, up b, and a big grab are not good for pressure. Mobility isn't much of an issue but I can kinda agree with the rest.

 

[Paradoxium]

So you are telling me a sword, projectiles, up b, and a big grab are not good for pressure. Mobility isn't much of an issue but I can kinda agree with the rest.

A sword does not help when getting pressured, fun fact most sword users have problems dealing with pressure. The problem is Link's sword has slow start up and punishable end lag, not what you want for dealing with pressure. Also his grab has slow start up while also having a huge punish window, again these type of things are not good for dealing with pressure. Next he has a slow jump start so his up b oos actually takes a while to come out, enough time to keep up the pressure on him. And when you are getting pressured a projectile wont do jack, projectiles are meant to keep your opponents out in the first place.

 

[Deleted member]

Mainly range since he gets gimped easier

what

10 whats IRL

i actually said what 10 times to my laptop

What are you guys talking about, Sonic is fine.

where's my unlike button

 

[MLGF]

Anyone who thinks Sonic is fine needs to seek help.

 

[Paradoxium]

I thought he was joking when he said sonic was fine