Tier List Speculation

[Chesstiger2612]

The difference is that those characters are probably good enough, that those campy options are an additional luxury, instead of the "optimal' playstyle you would probably have to conform with to keep up. Fox gets to win MU's without lasers, Sheik can grab a few people for free, etc. Factoring in the highest absolute level of play, where a person is willing to play PM IC's as lame as possible, it still doesn't paint a strong picture for the character. A player lack of willingness to play that way isn't a reason for thinking they are bad; it may shine a light onto other problems though. Questions like "Is a character limited towards playing this way?"

IC's don't have variables that matter enough: they have plenty of knick-knacks and different tools, but the nature of that character lends to situations where you can't mesh together those tools or strongly "wedge" the advantage you might get from a choice.

I think a big proportion of the community will think their inability to play aggressive makes them weak, and that will have the effect of underrating the ICs, especially in "Community Tier Lists", tier lists made by people not wary of this and in worst case also the PMDT. In fact, there is a correlation between being able to switch between multiple game paces and the characters strength, but that doesn't lead to any causality for the individual case which is determined by far more factors.

Your last points are somewhat true. There are many situations where the huge pool of options doesn't help that much, which will probably be reasoned by the ICs characteristics, so them being not able to deal with this and therefore having a weakness there. But this is only part of the reason. Some of these bad situations could be avoided before, ICs do have the tendency one bad decision puts them in an uncmfortable situation for a longer time / until more inaccuracies from the opponent happen. This isn't such a big factor when the IC player doesn't do these kinds of "no punish but long-term-harming" neutral game mistakes, for example something ending up in losing space while keeping up the defensive structure, this will more likely result in situations where there is no retreat and even guaranteed or high-probability punishes for your opponent. Some of the situations where they fall short are also dued do the character, no doubt.

Not trying to say they are top tier or anything, but seeing them in so many bottom 3s / bottom 5s is something I disagree with. By the way, I appreciate the constructive discussion

 

[Strong Badam]

no I played 3.2 strongbad what are you talking about? Thats the dev build I played that had the teenage mutant ninja turtles in it!

My Donatello is something to be feared.

 

[DMG]

I was playing patch *redacted*, beating Lunchables in the *redacted* ditto. I can't believe they *redacted* GANON!

Next patch, *redacted* will be top tier.

 

[CORY]

Ganon is really good as is, but there are just too many good/weird projectiles in this game that screw him. Honestly, if he could have some kind of projectile immunity (passive light-armor, potentially activated by a new b-move), he could even be nerfed.

i agree with bazkip. he doesn't need a large buff, but he needs something. it's not just the grab range, either. it's that the optimal way to beat ganon is to just camp him out and make him approach you, then stuff him upon committing.

projectiles also beat him pretty hard, since he's a large target and relatively less-mobile, meaning weaving through is harder and he has to make a commitment to stop the projectile, which can be easy to bait out with a lot of the stuff that gets thrown around.

other large characters have projectile issues, but many of them have better ways through/around them (zard is very fast, has mutliple jumps/glide, and can reverse nair in some situations to have a safe hitbox out cancelling the projectile; dk is faster and has some armor through dash attack, but i can see him having a bad time; bowser can at least crawl armor through things to make up distance as a last resort, rather than just eating the damage and not gaining anything from it, but his situation isn't that much better, in terms of projectiles).

 

[metroid1117]

My Donatello is something to be feared.

Donatello da bess

 

[DMG]

He's getting hotfix nerfed before the patch goes live. Michael Bay touched him so he's gotta get nerfed now

 

[TreK]

I don't think I'm... too much out of topic asking this here (I definitely am a bit lol), but, is there, somewhere, a list of moves that can be punished with a waveland out of shield ? They shouldn't be too numerous should they ?

I try to implement this mechanic but I simply have no idea of "when" it is a good idea and since it's not intuitive to me, I can't really guess.

 

[batistabus]

Ganon can definitely put in some work, and I fully believe he'll be able to compete with some tweaks, but saying he might need to be nerfed is insane (outside of nerfing dthrow CG in exchange for better grab range, but that's still a net positive change overall). 3.5 will likely result in him being a solid mid-tier, and imo that's a good place for him to be.

My nerf comment was related to my comment about him getting some way of resisting projectiles. That would be a pretty unique/powerful/polarizing ability, so if he had that in some way, adding that to his current build would make him too strong IMO.

i agree with bazkip. he doesn't need a large buff, but he needs something. it's not just the grab range, either. it's that the optimal way to beat ganon is to just camp him out and make him approach you, then stuff him upon committing.

I understand and agree that Ganon struggles. However, I think a large part of why he does struggle is related to the silliness of the rest of the cast. I personally think most characters just need to be straight nerfed, but I'm not sure how realistic of an expectation that is. Rather than changing Ganon dramatically by giving him a projectile or making his strength even more absurd, my suggestion would help him deal with the current state of the game while still allowing him to play similarly.

 

[DMG]

@ TreK : The factors to consider are enough that there is no universal list. Whether you could punish a move might literally depend on how fast your jump squat is, or if you have a fast enough move which ALSO is worthy of countering with (jabs might be a bad idea if the other person can CC/ASDI down and counter you back, etc)

Heck, we don't even have comprehensive frame data, hitbox data, etc for every character, let alone more nuanced scenarios like those. I'd pester some folks to get comprehensive frame data, so that at the very least you could do a rough estimate of which moves are laggy enough on block to even consider WD OOS

A good thing to consider though is that if you aren't sure about WD OOS punishes, you could probably at least get away with WD OOS retreats if the pressure doesn't trap jumps or anything real tightly.

 

[pkblaze]

This was in my drafts for this thread lol. IDK how many pages back this was. Figured I'll send it anyways.

General opinion on Zelda?

My friend picked her up a couple of days ago and fighting against her is nerve wrecking. Just knowing that if I go a bit too deep with my combos will lead me to eating a 20% fair/bair is terrifying. Like wat do? The knee of justice pales in comparison to her ankles of destruction.

On another note, I find her to be a solid counterpick to Mewtwo. Thoughts?

Zelda's got this pretty significant zone where like, if she tries to din's fire you, she gets hit, but you're still too far away to reach with her low mobility. If you literally just dashdance camp that spot, mediocre zeldas will fall apart.

Dashdance camp = force them to respect your dashdance.

 

[1FD]

I don't think I'm... too much out of topic asking this here (I definitely am a bit lol), but, is there, somewhere, a list of moves that can be punished with a waveland out of shield ? They shouldn't be too numerous should they ?

I try to implement this mechanic but I simply have no idea of "when" it is a good idea and since it's not intuitive to me, I can't really guess.

Ask @ GeZ what the answer to the question he asked on @Nausicaa profile was.
Knowing the forum stylinglikebosses of those 2 I bet it was a sexy convo.

 

[DMG]

Any answers from you or Nausicaa are too lengthy, and read like a 1000 year old Mountain Prophet trying to shout MapQuest directions to the nearest dungeon.

 

[1FD]

At least he spllze enlsgih gud

 

[Bazkip]

My nerf comment was related to my comment about him getting some way of resisting projectiles. That would be a pretty unique/powerful/polarizing ability, so if he had that in some way, adding that to his current build would make him too strong IMO.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think any form of tweaking of buffs is going require any nerfs for him unless they go WAY overboard, which I doubt will happen. He needs some buffs to be able to compete, so nerfs shouldn't really be on the table.

 

[GeZ]

Any answers from you or Nausicaa are too lengthy, and read like a 1000 year old Mountain Prophet trying to shout MapQuest directions to the nearest dungeon.

They're just thorough. It's cool if it's not your cup of tea, but I really like it, and a few other players are fond of it too.

In response to what was said earlier here's the thingy:
Nausicaa said: ↑
WD backwards > grounded Fireball is legit, I'd go as far as saying that's a very advanced maneuver that only ever really starts to be abused when the Mario player is highly experienced and developed in play.
Thing about what it covers, from everything like SH Aerial approaches against you, to keeping you grounded and safe from fly-by attacks that would generally be a good way to punish Mario for Jumping > Fireball normally, etc. It doesn't seem like much on paper, or even feel like it's amounting to much, but think about when FACING someone doing that.
Mario WD's backward and throws a Fireball along the ground at you, and starts moving up from behind it... what do you do? Attempt Power-Shielding it? Try approach him so you don't lose Stage control, but by SHing over it at him as your only option? Try throwing a Fireball over that Fireball, at him, and somehow not landing on it while yours can simply bounce over if he positions well/moves close quickly?

Then me:
Something simple but not often thought of is to WD OoS after shielding something that would usually put you out of grab range. The forward WD provides you the extra distance you need to get your grab. Alternatively, if you think the opponent will recover before you have the opportunity to grab, you can use the aforementioned WD backwards fireball to crush any response.

WD'ing in and of itself is really a technique to smooth out your game. On its own it can assist some techniques (pillaring, multishining), but coupled with DD'ing, stutter stepping, WL'ing, and most other movement based techniques it can provide you with the smooth movement from the aforementioned Water section.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I don't think I'm... too much out of topic asking this here (I definitely am a bit lol), but, is there, somewhere, a list of moves that can be punished with a waveland out of shield ? They shouldn't be too numerous should they ?

I try to implement this mechanic but I simply have no idea of "when" it is a good idea and since it's not intuitive to me, I can't really guess.

If you have the data for the move and some of your own quickest moves, you can figure it out on your own. Like DMG says there's not a whole lot of data available publicly atm, so I usually just go into dolphin and do frame by frame to determine things like endlag of a move. But assuming you can reach them, you'd want to subtract shieldstun from the endlag of that move (shieldstun is (damage+4.45)/2.235 then rounded down to determine frames), then subtract your wavedash speed from that (jumpsquat+10 airdodge landing+1 airborne frame in PM, jumpsquat+10 airdodge landing in melee) and then determine if you have any moves that come out as fast or faster than the remaining number, if they can reach the opponent, and if it can't be CC'd.
EDIT: oh and this only applies if you are frame perfect, which is difficult when playing from defense, so giving yourself a few frames of breathing room is a good idea. Also buffered spotdodges/rolls aren't invincible until frame 3 at the earliest, and grabs will beat anything else so they effectively have 2 more frames of endlag against grabs.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

In 3.5, I think they should give roy a wall jump.

On topic:
Here is, IMO, the top characters in PM ( without counting fox/falco because that is boring):

1) Pit-Jigglypuff, but with stronger moves, extra range and a projectile. They need to nerf him.
2) Lucas-Very strong moves, fast, combos easily
3) Mewtwo-insane options to get back to stage, and excellent range.
4) Mario-Jack of all trades, mixture of Melee Mario+Doctor Mario, with buffs.
5) Link-Very good projectiles, and strong attacks.
6) Snake-Amazing stage control, which limits opponent's movement.
7) Sonic-A bit centric on the spin dash, but is very fast and the spin dash combos into almost everything.

 

[DMG]

That list is great except for Snake

 

[PlateProp]

You know, I honestly wonder if P:M will ever break away from the idea that Fox/Falco HAVE to be at the top.

That sure would be nice

 

[Bleck]

You know, I honestly wonder if P:M will ever break away from the idea that Fox/Falco HAVE to be at the top.

 

[Rᴏb]

imo Fox and Falco should stay at the top so they can act like a ceiling for the other characters to stay under. when characters go above/get too close to that ceiling we know they need to be toned down. this doesn't mean that characters should be made to be as good as Fox and Falco, instead they should be around melee high tier (otherwise we get 3.0 all over again). then fox and falco can get their PAL changes so everyone is happy...

except spacie mains I guess, but **** them.

 

[PlateProp]

Ik Ik, wishful thinking

 

[Bleck]

imo Fox and Falco should stay at the top so they can act like a ceiling for the other characters to stay under.

This is basically a more thoughtful way of saying 'Fox and Falco are overpowered', which is a sentiment I agree with.

I agree that nobody should be as good as Fox and Falco - including Fox and Falco.

 

[Deleted member]

And why does that make you laugh? It's the truth. Look at the stuff 3/4 of the people in this forum have been posting the past few months. The general consensus seems to be that any character that might give Fox/Falco a run for their money or *GASP* even dethrone them (Mario/Pit/Lucas/Mewtwo/Sonic) needs to be nerfed. Hell, most people want to nerf the ridiculously good tools of characters most people wouldn't even consider top tier (Link's Boomerang, Ness's PK Fire). Meanwhile, Fox and Falco are sitting pretty, never having to worry about their precious Shine/Speed/Laser/Usmash/Dair getting toned town.

This is 2.5 Lucario and Ike all over again - the community realizes that in order for characters to have the possibility of being as good as Fox/Falco, they need to be given similarly ridiculous tools. Fast-forward a few months and everybody complains about how OP these characters have become and jumps on the nerfwagon.

It's a problem that PM is doomed to repeat until either the updates stop coming or people finally stop accepting this double standard. You all just want to complain but nobody wants to address the real problem. We need to decide whether we want a game that allows stupidly good tools on all characters or on no characters.

 

[GP&B]

The issue that is being realized over the course of 3.0 is that giving these characters ridiculous tools is not good for the game in the first place. If the reasoning for why a mid tier character isn't considered amazing commonly boils down to "he/she doesn't have something ridiculous" then it's a big sign of power creep and that all offenses (yes, all) need to be brought down.

 

[PlateProp]

And why does that make you laugh? It's the truth. Look at the stuff 3/4 of the people in this forum have been posting the past few months. The general consensus seems to be that any character that might give Fox/Falco a run for their money or *GASP* even dethrone them (Mario/Pit/Lucas/Mewtwo/Sonic) needs to be nerfed. Hell, most people want to nerf the ridiculously good tools of characters most people wouldn't even consider top tier (Link's Boomerang, Ness's PK Fire). Meanwhile, Fox and Falco are sitting pretty, never having to worry about their precious Shine/Speed/Laser/Usmash/Dair getting toned town.

This is 2.5 Lucario and Ike all over again - the community realizes that in order for characters to have the possibility of being as good as Fox/Falco, they need to be given similarly ridiculous tools. Fast-forward a few months and everybody complains about how OP these characters have become and jumps on the nerfwagon.

It's a problem that PM is doomed to repeat until either the updates stop coming or people finally stop accepting this double standard. You all just want to complain but nobody wants to address the real problem. We need to decide whether we want a game that allows stupidly good tools on all characters or on no characters.

His post was made in sarcasm.

He clearly said that he disagrees with the notion.

 

[Deleted member]

then it's a big sign of power creep and that all offenses (yes, all) need to be brought down.

The reason these power creeps happen in the first place is because Fox/Falco are setting a bad example. They are the root of the problem. There are only two options here:

1. Tone down ALL the stupidly good tools on ALL the characters, including Fox/Falco.

2. Let Fox/Falco keep their stupidly good tools but stop freaking out when other characters are given similarly stupid tools.

 

[GP&B]

I'd take option 1 because 2 has repeatedly shown not to work out. If it takes TP Hover, dumb fireballs, and ridiculously easy to land KO setups to uproot Fox/Falco then no thanks. I'd like Project M to be balanced at a level where it's actually fun and requires thought.

 

[DMG]

The problem with putting stupid good tools on every char is that you are bound to get it wrong for more than a few chars, AND you will erase a lot of character personality by doing so. Throw angles and knockback will all look like Mario/Pit Dthrow and Mario/Snake Uthrow. It would be disgusting.

Figuring out other characters, and then touching Spacies is probably the safest and most logical route. You don't entice Melee players by nerfing or keeping Melee top tiers somewhat similar, and then output New Mario/Pit/Mewtwo/Diddy/etc. You'd be taking Project M as a name, and turning it into "Try to beat Brawl chars version 4.OMG"

If Fox and Falco had super duper clear nerfs, like reverted to PAL versions or straight up gutting Fox Usmash/Uair, that would be no guarantee that commonly listed "problem" characters or tools would have been buffed less. Somebody would still cream their pants over making Mewtwo this capable, or giving Pit the Sheik style Dthrow, or x thing. Diddy Fair I can GUARANTEE would operate the same; I'd bet Gucci dollars on it. Same with Link as an entire character: that thing would have happened even if Fox and Falco were so removed from the game that their spots were taken up by 2 more Wolf Skins.

Chars don't have to be as good as Fox or Falco. Characters right below their power level in Melee are pretty dope to watch and use too: you could keep Spacies the same and develop chars around that level. The game doesn't have to be an all or nothing "everyone is good or everyone is bad". If Spacies were the two s+ tiers in PM, but every other character was as good (or better) than Melee Samus, that would still be a pretty rad game no?

People like Old Ike/Lucario/etc get nerfs because they impact too much of the cast. You can craft tools that are more surgically crafted towards killing Spacies: Uthrow CG's that mostly only work on them (instead of Snake style where multiple weights get involved). Dthrows that don't body other weights/fall speeds, etc. I'd argue that although those characters had negative traits for the general cast, you can tweak some of them to more specifically target Spacies.

One example I'd use is someone like Marth. He has some very good tools against Spacies, but doesn't go on to just ridiculously slaughter the rest of the cast (in this game at least). If people like Zard or DK can do decent against Marth, while Marth can do decent vs Spacies, that's a pretty decent RPS going on. Other characters can achieve that, but you walk a fine line between keeping differences/nuances alive or making chars lean more towards specific + proven tools that body Spacies. That's proof enough that you don't have to specifically chop Spacies down OR super buff people up

 

[Circle_Breaker]

maybe Fox/Falco already aren't the best and we should wait and see how the game develops?

sorry I just haven't seen them cleaning up tournaments like they did in melee.

 

[Deleted member]

But DMG, can't you see how ridiculously unfair it is to basically guarantee the space animals a spot at the top right from the start? They are allowed to have things that other characters are not. If a character is allowed a tool on par with theirs, it will inevitably get toned down. Sure, other characters can be good, but they are never allowed to be as good as Fox/Falco. I don't see how that can be anything but toxic to the game, as I feel it has proven to be.

I'd prefer it if everybody, including the spacies, got toned down. However, if people are going to refuse to budge on doing anything to the space animals, then I'm afraid that I'm going to have to continue to support what I feel is the most fair option - letting every character run around with sh*t like 3.0 fireballs and boomerangs.

maybe Fox/Falco already aren't the best and we should wait and see how the game develops?

sorry I just haven't seen them cleaning up tournaments like they did in melee.

Part of the problem is that if there is even a possibility of Fox/Falco not being as powerful as another character, they just have to wait for the other character to get nerfed.

 

[DMG]

It's unhealthy to give characters traits that are on par with Spacies, primarily because other characters (probably) don't get as punished for mistakes. Let's define being on par though:

1. Tool or moveset that can let a character compete specifically vs Spacies

2. Tool or moveset that can let a character compete SIMILAR to Spacies, as in crushing dominating options or a more universal impact on the cast

(When talking about characters "on par" with Spacies, that usually refers to #2. Those characters get nerfed, ala Old Ike. Characters like Marth are basically #1. On Par vs Spacies, instead of On Par AS a Spacie. That's the power level/tangent that characters can aim for that won't warrant nerfs.)

Balancing characters so that they can do pretty good vs Spacies, while having RPS with others in the cast IS a very good solution. That should be the goal to strive for before you cross the bridge of srs nerfing Spacies. They can be on top if other chars keep it close, and to keep it close you don't need to be those super duper chars. You can be an average Joe that just happens to have a super nasty Uthrow -->edgeguard combo on someone susceptible like Spacies. You might still lose the MU's; no guarantees that anyone could or would go 50:50 with Spacies after some easy tweaks

Viable vs Spacies = Great
Crushing other chars = Bad, you impact a lot more chars and RPS scenarios
Nerf chars so that they don't crush others = Good
Buff chars to be viable vs Spacies while not super boning others = A decent goal to work towards, and a very possible scenario

Spacies not being nerfed is a temporary situation until we figure out character power levels appropriately. They are not guaranteed top spots for life, nor are they even guaranteed to hold those spots WHILE we figure out character tools. If we can't get other characters right, what improvement would we deliver by nerfing Spacies? Something marginal or worse? Spacie nerfs are pretty easy to figure out. Getting Ness to Melee Marth level, as a whole character? Crunch on that for a couple of months: **** ain't easy yo

(I'm also not a PM dev, so for anyone curious don't read it as if I'm speaking on their behalf somehow. Just my opinion, even if words like "we" are tossed in. More of a community thing than a dev group thing)

 

[pkblaze]

DMG what do you think of PM Sheik changes? Do you agree with it? Do you think there was a better solution?

 

[Bleck]

And why does that make you laugh? It's the truth.

Hey man, don't take me the wrong way - I'd like to think I've been one of the biggest proponents of the idea that Fox and Falco should probably be nerfed (along with the equally, if not moreso, unpopular opinion that Brawl Falco was more interesting than Melee Falco). All of the stuff you said is stuff I agree with.

 

[DMG]

I may not be able to reply anymore tonight: router finally died after 5 years of abuse total love and compassion. Tethering from phone but seems too janky, don't get me started on actual mobile SWF. Not gonna be one of those guys. I had a lovely post about Sheik too: will have to wait I guess

 

[jtm94]

It'd be cool if Sheik had true mixups on her throws, but it is indeed posible to react to them so you have downthrow at sub 40% and then grabs stink. Her melee downthrow was also given to 1/4 of the characters in the game. Needles are good, combos are still mad good, but some characters like Mario and Sonic don't like to be comboed which stinks.

 

[Shokio]

I thought I was the only one who kinda felt this way. Let's be honest here: The way Fox and Falco play is stupid. They're pretty dumb. (And as a disclaimer, I'm not saying these things out of salt. There's not that many PM spacie players around here and the few that exist I beat fairly well since Roy can combo the living hell out of them.)

That's not to say that they're the best, cause I feel that Mewtwo, Mario, and Link are better characters for various reasons, with Diddy, Pit, and Sonic coming close but still under them.

But there's an obvious problem with a character that you can literally use 3 moves with to win:
Falco: Dair, Lasers, [auto-combo] Shine
Fox: Up-Smash, [1-frame-cancel-able-100%-safe kill-you-at-9%] Shine, Up Air.

Yeah, I may be exaggerating a bit (Nairs and Bairs are used too), but in a nutshell we know that it's essentially true.

To piggy back off some sentiment I've seen here, people know damn well if any of the Brawl PM characters could do what Fox and Falco do, they would scream "broken". I see tons of people, Melee players in particular, who complain that too many thing in PM are safe. Which is TRUE, I agree with them. BUT, how are you going to complain about things being too safe when you play 2 characters who can shine instantly after an L-canceled ariel?

Falco's neutral game in-general is mad safe due to lasers.
Fox can jump off stage and do one of the best semi-spikes in the game WITHOUT any risk factor of executing the move. It stops his momentum and then he can jump out of it. No risky Dairs here, just a 1-frame move than can kill you at -5 percent. (Yes, I said negative 5 xD). So easy, a scrub can do it.

Just buffer rolls? Yes, that works, but FORCES you into a readable situation. That's right, you get PUNISHED for shielding Fox/Falco's ariels/shine pressure. You don't actually gain anything from rolling - you're still on the defensive and on the run from their pressure. All because you shielded...

Some questions and things to consider:
1) Is there an actual reason why Fox's UpSmash should be that strong? Really. What is it about Fox that warrants that kind of power? Is he Bowser?
2) A strong as Falco's FSmash is, should it really have all those active frames?
3) As AMAZING as Falco's Dair is, should every last frame of that move be so potent? You can get nicked by the very last hitbox and still get sent to your doom like you just got spiked from Snake's Fair.
4) Fox's Up-Air is stupid strong. Why does such a strong Uair have a grab that auto-combos into it? As amazing as the combo was, the fact that Fox can kill Sonic from 21% with THREE Up-Airs is......."ridiculous" doesn't even do that justice. Think about that. You're at 21%, and all it'll take to kill you know is 3 up-airs from Fox, with your ending percentage being only at 69%. Sixty-nine. I'm not trying to take away from Mojo at all, that combo was hype and I was in awe, but when you actually pay attention to the percentages, you'll really scratch your head as to why that kill is even possible in the first place. Even on a top platform.............no.
5) Fox's speed with his dash dance......it's gahlike.
6) Apparently, Fox's foot is made of diamonds. (He can kick through a nuke and manage to beat it out)

This may be blasphemy to some of you, but I would actually LOVE redesigns for Fox and Falco. They are straight BORING to watch AND to play against, due to their polarized movesets and overly-efficient moves. Every Fox and Falco will always play the EXACT same way, unless we're talking about God-Tier players such as M2K, WestBallz, etc. They're BORING, bland, uninspiring, and souless characters.

I know this would NEVER happen though cause the backroom would never do anything to piss off the Melee faithful. Fox and Falco can never be touch in any kind of truly significant way. I mean, there was already some rage over Shine's invicibility being removed (which really doesn't make much of a difference at all in the first place). Imagine what would happen if we could actually GRAB Falco's Dair OoS. Their world would be turned upside-down.

These are TERRIBLY designed characters, period. And I know many people would never accept it because Fox/Falco are the God and Jesus of Smash and people have been playing them this way for 13 years, but it is what is.

There's a reason why so many try-hard players will automatically go to spacies whenever they pick up Melee or PM.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How am I suppose to reply when you write an essay. Stahp dat

EDIT: ok I read some, most of the buffed characters in PM are not easy to shine spike, the risk is bigger and you have to shine them more as well. I feel like, you would see a unbuffed melee character get shine spiked much sooner than the other characters.

EDIT: The removal of the shine i-frames really makes a difference. Like, if you put some time into a spacie, you should see your shine get clanked, when you coulda won an exchange, it can be beat out(i forget if it can) trades etc I think nerf hurt the spacies, but it wasn't game changing, it just toned them down.

 

[didds]

I think fox and falco are excellently designed. Their outfits look cool and they have some of the slickest looking animations in the game.

 

[1FD]

What didds said
Fox and Falco are sexy more characters should be as sexy as them.