Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

gonna post that again for posterity

grab boxes should be on a character's hands

Why

 

[Rawkobo]

I dunno about grab boxes being on character's hands, but I still think that grabbing a character behind you is pretty silly.

Yeah, I experienced that earlier today with Ganon VS Zelda. Apparently when I did a down-B across the stage, ending up directly behind Zelda, she grabbed the tip of my foot and brought me directly in front of her. No pivot grab, no dash grab. Just a neutral grab that wasn't facing me at all.

I don't really know what to make of it.

 

[Bleck]

no they shouldn't

fight me irl

 

[Rᴏb]

Why

because it makes sense

but this is video games, son

 

[DMG]

I'll fight you irl, but if I turn my back and grab, you gotta teleport into my arms. Otherwise I'll know you're life-hacking, and the police will come to ban you.

 

[NickRiddle]

M2 grabs me when I'm behind him all the time.
I also grab people when they're behind me.
This isn't a new thing~

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

If you ask me, I'd say it's way too frustrating to control Nana. I'm constantly SDing while trying to save her and killing with them feels so unsatisfying as half the time I can barely keep up with Nana. I don't know how this can be fixed, but as I see it they are currently very technical and frustrating characters who are quite underpowered if you don't have perfect control of Nana.

#Buff Plaease

 

[jtm94]

Yeah it's been around for some time. It doesn't need to be a dash grab. Also if my attack is giving them a better hurtbox to grab while I pressure their shield that's still just as bad. By no means am I against grab range, but a character doesn't need to grab behind them because it isn't practical nor makes sense.

 

[1FD]

So everybody knows these people are good... (some too good)


Some people think/most people know(?) these people are good 'enough'





Are these people good enough or what's the deal with them?


Ganon is Ganon
Did Jiggs really fall off so hard she's not good enough to bother having in this game as her current state?
How are ICs hanging in there with all the ICs complaints floating around/coding troubles or whatever?
They gonna be aight after some fixes or are they aight now?




I personally think these people are good enough too BUT could use a few tweaks
Of course stuff is welcome everywhere, but I'd REALLY like some minor changes to be done to these few at least.
(64 usmash and faster utilt XD)(harder hitting shield breaker and all upb hitboxes)(too broken to fix because it's ooze)(old ftilt and bigger utilt)(tether side-b and dair meteor)(immediate JC frames on grounded down b)
^just random examples, but otherwise I think they're good as they are and don't really NEED anything. Just some thoughts.

 

[KayB]

ICs aren't very good simply because PM is a more aerial/projectile game with many characters having great moves that separate the IC's/send them vertically. ICs are a very ground based character, which is why they thrived in Melee. In PM, there's much different play styles present which makes it difficult to adapt.

 

[Xcite]

General opinion on Zelda?

My friend picked her up a couple of days ago and fighting against her is nerve wrecking. Just knowing that if I go a bit too deep with my combos will lead me to eating a 20% fair/bair is terrifying. Like wat do? The knee of justice pales in comparison to her ankles of destruction.

On another note, I find her to be a solid counterpick to Mewtwo. Thoughts?

 

[DMG]

Every character is a CP against bad M2 players. Want proof? Anytime they teleport, press A. You just won

Vs Decent or Good M2's, she's not a great choice. It's hard for Zelda to apply pressure: he can teleport/float past Dins and she can't really rush down/corner a person well.

 

[Chevy]

A grab shouldn't extend so far behind that it starts to grab those who shield pressure the back of their shields. I get you shouldn't be trying to be inside of them when you pressure their shields, but a solid placed attack should not be punished on the back of a shield by a grab. DK, Mewtwo, and Ivy do it the most, but I've had other chars do it too. It looks weird when Lucas does that ish.

DK pretty much never gets ass grabs unless you run through him, the only silly part of his grab is how high it reaches.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda loses to M2, she's too slow and dins is still bad against most characters. Just bait her out and hit her.

 

[Jacob29]

(tether side-b and dair meteor)(immediate JC frames on grounded down b)
^just random examples, but otherwise I think they're good as they are and don't really NEED anything. Just some thoughts.

I don't think Shiek needs something like that. Especially not with recoveries being nerfed anyway she is going to get a little better.

I also don't think just that alone for Bowser will make him not underperforming.

 

[CyberZixx]

Yeah, we don't need to be improving a top 10 character like Sheik.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yeah, we don't need to be improving a top 10 character like Sheik.

Sheik top 10 in PM? Blasphemy let me know when you start playing 3.2.

 

[1FD]

If Sheik is top 10 in PM then omgwtf how buffed do characters have to be before being better than her?
Like **** they're all so godang broken already what more can we do to make her drop? LOL

Give Ganon TPortHoverBallz and Mewtwo would still probably be better than him, but at least he'd be a godang broken character like the rest of them too. :D

That Bowser JC down b thing I just wanna use it as an instant-parrying thing melee yoshi style.
PS: Top that off with frame-1 invince and I wanna play Bowser more so I can parry everything and remain grounded forever/UpB instantly out of the parry.
Srew shields... ARMOOOOOOOOAAAAAAARRRRRRRR

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ICs aren't very good simply because PM is a more aerial/projectile game with many characters having great moves that separate the IC's/send them vertically. ICs are a very ground based character, which is why they thrived in Melee. In PM, there's much different play styles present which makes it difficult to adapt.

Their neatral is trash as well. Don't think otherwise :I

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think otherwise :|

 

[DMG]

They don't have dominant options, or dominant punishes from those options. You can't just have solid WD, some desynchs, and nasty damage (if both hammers land) to craft a good neutral.

If you have to jump with them to hit someone, that means you're not grabbing, which might be for the best since it appears their grabs are overall poopy in this game. None of it leads to a great neutral, besides trying to play a tricky "war of attrition" with the other person and averaging 25% a punish, instead of getting a kill.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well WD and desync help in neutral, damage doesn't help that much obviously.

If you have to jump with them to hit someone, that means you're not grabbing, which might be for the best since it appears their grabs are overall poopy in this game.

Probably I'm thinking to 20XXesque here, because ICs do have an infinite which is unpractical. Also, your first statement is partially wrong because desyncs can make one of them grab, one of them jump.

I see your arguments and they contain some truth. ICs biggest downfall in neutral is that Nana's shield is also delayed, making both very suspectable to projectiles which beat Ice Block, also you have to play very prophylactic because of it, your risk-reward ratio isn't great as well. If you keep that in mind and camp it pretty hard it is doable, you can see it sometimes in Melee though when for example Wobbles does a WD back although there is just a low risk of getting hit, because of delayed shield + bad risk-reward ratios (Nana KOd possibly). The problem with that is that you don't have infinite space to retreat, so always gain space when you can and use desyncs to be prophylactic.

I agree their neutral isn't over par, but it isn't trash either, you have to play it a bit different.

 

[DMG]

They are good and bad. You can do a little bit of nearly anything, it just doesn't coherently add up to much. You might have to respect some of the coverage IC's players can manage with 2 characters, but you can disrespect their overall punishment potential in this game compared to many characters. That makes them not as good, since that tends to give the opponent more opportunities to eventually break through and get a (relatively) massive conversion.

It's hard to convince a player that they should go not just the attrition route, but the unorthodox route for IC's, when you could just recommend Pit or something. It's a very skewed ratio of effort : small reward, which is not just a player obstacle but definitely also a negative character trait.

 

[Terotrous]

Haven't posted here in like 50 pages, but with PM 3.5 being around the corner I felt I might as well take a final stab at a tierlist for 3.0.

Note that positions within tiers aren't ordered because who cares anymore.


Best tier:




Good Tier:




Okay Tier:




Bad Tier:




The game is actually decently balanced, so anyone in okay tier or above is generally viable, but as you go down the tiers the amount of bad matchups you have goes up.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They are good and bad. You can do a little bit of nearly anything, it just doesn't coherently add up to much. You might have to respect some of the coverage IC's players can manage with 2 characters, but you can disrespect their overall punishment potential in this game compared to many characters. That makes them not as good, since that tends to give the opponent more opportunities to eventually break through and get a (relatively) massive conversion.

It's hard to convince a player that they should go not just the attrition route, but the unorthodox route for IC's, when you could just recommend Pit or something. It's a very skewed ratio of effort : small reward, which is not just a player obstacle but definitely also a negative character trait.

This is actually much more of a reason why ICs are regarded as bad, their learning curve for using their neutral game right is really tough and even then you need to play the war of attrition.

I always try to deliver objectice tier placements which don't make up all of tournament placings, because you would play really slow and strategic. And many players prefer the worse approach to the stronger prophylcatic slow play. If you compare "perfect" players using the respective characters though it is a different story (as chess player yourself, I'd try to describe it as a computer program calculating the tiers, doesn't care if a win route is full of possible mistakes and takes long, with hih chance to lose, he still prefers it to an objective draw with messup chances for your opponent). I do take the reaction time into account though because otherwise it would be stupid (grabs wouldn't work because spot dodge on reaction etc...).

Actually, this is the reason for all of my weird-looking tier placements, different level of player strength examined. No one will be stoic enough to camp at the ledge, charge needles, use them for potential percents and go back at the ledge with Sheik for 8 minutes and not many use Fox' speed to shoot lasers all the way (well, there are some attempts to do it, but many matchups with bad Fox risk-reward ratios need more lasers still), but that doesn't make Fox or Sheik worse.

 

[JayMan-X]

Haven't posted here in like 50 pages, but with PM 3.5 being around the corner I felt I might as well take a final stab at a tierlist for 3.0.

Note that positions within tiers aren't ordered because who cares anymore.


Best tier:




Good Tier:




Okay Tier:




Bad Tier:




The game is actually decently balanced, so anyone in okay tier or above is generally viable, but as you go down the tiers the amount of bad matchups you have goes up.

I agree with everything except i think Wario should be in good tier.
I could also argue that Pit and Sonic could be in Best tier, but Fox Lucas and Mewtwo are probably better than them, so thats okay by me.

 

[DMG]

The difference is that those characters are probably good enough, that those campy options are an additional luxury, instead of the "optimal' playstyle you would probably have to conform with to keep up. Fox gets to win MU's without lasers, Sheik can grab a few people for free, etc. Factoring in the highest absolute level of play, where a person is willing to play PM IC's as lame as possible, it still doesn't paint a strong picture for the character. A player lack of willingness to play that way isn't a reason for thinking they are bad; it may shine a light onto other problems though. Questions like "Is a character limited towards playing this way?"

IC's don't have variables that matter enough: they have plenty of knick-knacks and different tools, but the nature of that character lends to situations where you can't mesh together those tools or strongly "wedge" the advantage you might get from a choice.

 

[batistabus]

Are these people good enough or what's the deal with them?


Ganon is Ganon
Did Jiggs really fall off so hard she's not good enough to bother having in this game as her current state?
How are ICs hanging in there with all the ICs complaints floating around/coding troubles or whatever?
They gonna be aight after some fixes or are they aight now?

Ganon is really good as is, but there are just too many good/weird projectiles in this game that screw him. Honestly, if he could have some kind of projectile immunity (passive light-armor, potentially activated by a new b-move), he could even be nerfed.

Recoveries are too good atm for Jiggs to really shine. She doesn't really seem able to contend with some of the more gimmicky characters. Also, if she ends up being the least viable in PM...would anyone really mind?

Ice Climbers have some technical issues as far as I know, and they're too different from their Melee/Brawl counterparts for veterans to want to use them. The prospect of having Melee and Brawl technology (-infinites) honestly sounds scary to me, so I can't really see how these guys would be/end up under powered. Like Jiggs, these guys are so weird that I'd be fine with them as lower-tiered.

 

[Player -0]

Also, if she ends up being the least viable in PM...would anyone really mind?

HBox would like to have a word with you.

Also the prospect that any character "deserves" to be bad or that you think it's completely fine that they're bad is completely ******** in my opinion.
_____________________________________________________________

Sonic should probably be in best tier. His above average (really good) recovery, great movement options, good kill options, pretty decent gimping options (super good vs. tethers), and really good combo that can lead to a carry off to the side or top. Pit is definitely good but I'm not sure about best tier. He might be in between.

Not really going to worry about the tier list as a whole, just wanted to point out that Sonic is really good.

 

[PlateProp]

I honestly don't think the IC's meta will really go anywhere for PM, just because they probably wont ever work correctly due to coding issues, and the fact that infinites were a key part of their gameplay.

---
I realized today that when I play against anyone but Mario/Fox/Falco that I have fun.

Mario's fireballs are annoying af, and for whatever reason Fox/Falco have ridiculous hitstut compared to everyone else for all they shiz

I honestly feel like just putting my controller down because the unfun and boredom

 

[Bazkip]

Ganon is really good as is, but there are just too many good/weird projectiles in this game that screw him. Honestly, if he could have some kind of projectile immunity (passive light-armor, potentially activated by a new b-move), he could even be nerfed.

 

[Ripple]

I don't think people realize that once ganon gets that low reaching grab, he could compete with the whole cast.

 

[Terotrous]

I agree with everything except i think Wario should be in good tier.
I could also argue that Pit and Sonic could be in Best tier, but Fox Lucas and Mewtwo are probably better than them, so thats okay by me.

I think there's probably a couple characters in the okay tier who could, with time, move up to the good tier. I've been saying for a long time that I think Squirtle is very slept on, but with 3.0 coming to an end there's not a lot of point talking about potential anymore. As such, I weighted my ordering pretty heavily towards recent tournament results.

I don't think people realize that once ganon gets that low reaching grab, he could compete with the whole cast.

Slightly increased horizontal grab range would really be nice too, I don't see why a slow character has the shortest grab in the game, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[batistabus]

HBox would like to have a word with you.

Also the prospect that any character "deserves" to be bad or that you think it's completely fine that they're bad is completely ******** in my opinion.

HBox seems perfectly content just playing different characters in PM. Puff has a polarizing design already, so unless her design is changed, buffing her would just create problems.

1.) I don't care.
2.) You shouldn't use that word, man.

 

[batistabus]

http://i.imgur.com/53dw2Wv.jpg

I'm serious. The dude is good...there's just too much other bull****.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm serious. The dude is good...there's just too much other bull****.

Ganon can definitely put in some work, and I fully believe he'll be able to compete with some tweaks, but saying he might need to be nerfed is insane (outside of nerfing dthrow CG in exchange for better grab range, but that's still a net positive change overall). 3.5 will likely result in him being a solid mid-tier, and imo that's a good place for him to be.

 

[Strong Badam]

Sheik top 10 in PM? Blasphemy let me know when you start playing 3.2.

3.2 isn't a version number. We're goin from 3.02 to 3.5!

 

[Deleted member]

no I played 3.2 strongbad what are you talking about? Thats the dev build I played that had the teenage mutant ninja turtles in it!

 

[jtm94]

Sonic has the shortest grab range from what I remember, not Ganon.
3.2 is Waluigi format.
We all know Puff is bad now, projectiles are everywhere.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

But Ganon's grab misses short/crouched characters it's so bad. And sonic's short grab range is really mitigated by dash-jc grab.