Tier List Speculation

[1FD]

Diddy is good but F-Air, Dash Attack, and Recovery, have little to do with it. Not even Bananas really. He could function fine without all of this stuff.
He was good in 2.6b with DD Tilt/Grab/Nair type stuff already, just like Sonic though, he was complained about as being BAD by a lot of the community. Maybe because he wasn't super straight-forward like 2.5 Sonic or leap-for-miles Diddy? lol
He got bonus stuff like that stuff when all the traits were buffed in 3.0, but the best Diddy I know still functions the same. Bananas/etc are just... better now.
He's just a little more functional in areas in more linear ways, which gives him stability and ease of use at higher levels of play.
Top play implies people can counter-play him, edge-guard him, deal with DIing his stuff, etc. He wasn't much worse in 2.6, and taking the things people say are his 'good' traits wouldn't make him much worse either. DD got it covered for the monkey.

yes even the top characters in Melee have clear weaknesses

Marth - trouble killing at high %'s, mediocre recovery
Falcon -combo food, mediocre recovery
Sheik - bad/punishable recovery
Jiggs - dies very early
Fox/Falco - combo food, linear recoveries/ easy to edgeguard , requires high tech-skill at top level play

Peach - The best and sexiest.

 

[Ace55]

yes even the top characters in Melee have clear weaknesses

Marth - trouble killing at high %'s, mediocre recovery
Falcon -combo food, mediocre recovery
Sheik - bad/punishable recovery
Jiggs - dies very early
Fox/Falco - combo food, linear recoveries/ easy to edgeguard , requires high tech-skill at top level play

About Fox/Falco: Above the stage they have plenty of options, they don't have bad recoveries in Melee compared to the other relevant chars minus Jiggs/Peach. High tech-skill requirement at top level isn't really a balancing attribute.

For all the other chars you listed you could also list that they all kinda suck at approaching. The spacies on the other hand are actually good at it.

 

[1FD]

I vote Sheik for worst approach.
Caraktr so hrd

 

[Phan7om]

most of these aren't actual weaknesses

lol what is your definition of a weakness?

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik for worst approach? Have you not seen characters like bowser?!?

Sheik doesn't even really have to approach.

 

[kaizo13]

Peach - The best and sexiest.

i knew i was forgetting someone,
peach is bad at approaching and dies early off the top

About Fox/Falco: Above the stage they have plenty of options, they don't have bad recoveries in Melee compared to the other relevant chars minus Jiggs/Peach. High tech-skill requirement at top level isn't really a balancing attribute.

For all the other chars you listed you could also list that they all kinda suck at approaching. The spacies on the other hand are actually good at it.

I agree, spacies do have plenty options when above the stage, but i also don't think it's all that hard to put them in a bad position and capitalize on it. We've all seen how one spacie tech error can lead to death at high level play (M2K), playing perfectly under pressure is not the easiest of things. So while i agree it's not necessarily a weakness pertaining to balance, i still think it's a factor.

 

[1FD]

Sheik for worst approach? Have you not seen characters like bowser?!?

Sheik doesn't even really have to approach.

The discussion was about the 'top tiers' and I REALLY REALLY don't think Bowser is a top tier.
LOL

Yeah, she doesn't have to approach, she too good at everything else to bother. :D

 

[MLGF]

I swear, spacies have some of the best recovery tools and best tools to get back on stage.

I'm fine with how they are now, but if every character is getting nerfed hard in the recovery department they could be a problem again.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't see it.

 

[steelguttey]

I swear, spacies have some of the best recovery tools and best tools to get back on stage.

I'm fine with how they are now, but if every character is getting nerfed hard in the recovery department they could be a problem again.

a recovery move that goes in 8 directions and half of the directions are absolutely useless and even when its useful it is barely better than pk thunder?

and a side b that is fast but has the ending lag that lasts forever?

pls nerf

 

[kaizo13]

falco? best recovery tools?

does not compute

 

[Deleted member]

falco has a decent ish recovery above stage, below the stage he is soooo ****ed though

 

[metroid1117]

In practice, the spacies have a surprisingly versatile recovery if/when they have a jump due to side+B/up+B mix-ups. Without a jump, however, they recovery is pretty reasonable to edgeguard.

 

[MLGF]

Wow, people get so damn defensive. I'm saying that spacies have much better recoveries then what people credit them for, which is extremely reasonable as they outdo a lot of other characters in Melee.

 

[pkblaze]

They are not gonna remove things like Mewtwo's Teleport. What they will do is remove cases of a move being used to stall decent multiply times (in line with Marth's side-B), reduce the effectiveness of some ledgestalls, and maybe make teleports laggier.


Spacies have solid recoveries in may-lay because they have a lot of mixups, as Lunchables pointed out. The issue in PM is that some characters have the same level of mixups offstage, and don't instantly die when you hit them out of their recovery.

This is dumb because at that point, what are Spacies trading their solid-but-gimpable recoveries for?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

IMO fox is just fine

he's nowhere near as dominant as he was in Melee. The cast for the most part can keep up with fox this time around, stop complaining and go practice some more

The thing about fox though is that he is good in every way except for the fact that he is easily gimped.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I don't have too much of a problem with the spacies recovery, especially falco. If I had to nerf it somehow, the only thing I'd do to their recovery is put some endlag on up b. Other than that their recovery is pretty fair, and even without endlag it's manageable, at least for me.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

It isn't about character balance, it just doesn't really make sense. I mean if we wanted to have character balance, we might as well give a lot of characters cancels. It's more about keeping the integrity of the character in mind while making tweaks to the character. For example, canceling Wizard's foot would look really weird.

They should change his Utilt to the one featured in Melee: SD remix.

 

[KayB]

They should change his Utilt to the one featured in Melee: SD remix.

Ganon's curbstomp is fine.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Lucas, Pit, and spacies are very high tier.

BTW why would the Project M team try to boost every character to spacies level? That might be able to happen if they gave some slight nerfs to the spacies, but boosting Bowser to Fox level right now would mean we would most likely over centralize his attacks.

 

[KayB]

I very well agree but the tech skill for spacies i don't think is a weakness, because it isn't necessary, and if you can pull it off, it is an advantage.

Uh, what?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Uh, what?

sorry, meant to reply to someone else

 

[pkblaze]

Lucas is what happens when you say "Let's make a character that uses DJC and a projectile to play like a spacey on stage but give him the ability to recover from anywhere on the screen!"

He's better than fox and falco cuz he's got what makes them strong without what makes them weak.

 

[DMG]

He's also janky. Most important trait for a character, along with short and annoying

 

[Bleck]

lol what is your definition of a weakness?

mediocre recovery isn't a real weakness in a game where every character but two have a mediocre recovery

'requires techskill' isn't a real weakness

'has trouble killing at high percent' isn't a real weakness if it's pretty easy to kill at low percents with the character

being combo'able isn't a real weakness if high techskill with that character makes them almost impossible to hit in the first place

jigglypuff being easy to kill is an example of an actual weakness

but this is melee talk and it's kind of off-topic, so

 

[Circle_Breaker]

being easy to combo is definitely 100% a weakness, wtf bro?

like are you saying zelda wouldnt be worse if she were susceptible to being 0-death'd?

 

[Bleck]

in Falcon's case, yes

in space animal's case, no, because 20XX being a thing means that a perfectly played space animal doesn't get hit let alone combo'd (see; Mango)

an actual weakness is something you have to compensate for in other areas, not something that doesn't actually exist if you know what you're doing

 

[Circle_Breaker]

in Falcon's case, yes

in space animal's case, no, because 20XX being a thing means that a perfectly played space animal doesn't get hit let alone combo'd (see; Mango)

an actual weakness is something you have to compensate for in other areas, not something that doesn't actually exist if you know what you're doing

... ITT mango never loses and literally plays TAS-level

 

[DMG]

Way to keep the tier list thread poop free

OWAIT

 

[Deleted member]

So today I went into clash tournaments stream chat. Some guy was like hey lunchables, why is tinks recovery so bad? It's exactly like 64!

today was a good day

 

[Bleck]

Way to keep the tier list thread poop free

OWAIT

petition to forcibly make "tier list" a synonym for "poop"

 

[trash?]

"you need to learn techskill" is not a disadvantage

especially not in a game where that techskill actually got easier

stop talking about spacies you nerds

 

[Bleck]

you're a nerd

 

[pkblaze]

... ITT mango never loses and literally plays TAS-level

The man hasn't lost an Evo since 2007 Kappa.

 

[Strong Badam]

The terrifying thing about Mango is that he doesn't even do the 20XX stuff (double shine grab, multishines, invincible waveland -> stuff, etc) and still beats almost everyone. I'd hate to see what he'd look like with that stuff incorporated fully.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Fox and Falco aren't even particularly easy to combo, by PM standards. They are rather resilient to low percent setups, they get to platforms easily and have decent tech rolls, shine acts as a combo breaker, high double jump velocity means they escape juggles more easily, and they effectively limit optimal finisher options because they don't get KO'd off the top.
The only thing that seems especially stand-out to me is how susceptible they are to grab combos, and while it isn't easy to say spacies shouldn't or don't get hit whatsoever, it's not so much of a stretch to say that about grabs.

 

[Toon link is 2cute!]

Fox and Falco aren't even particularly easy to combo, by PM standards. They are rather resilient to low percent setups, they get to platforms easily and have decent tech rolls, shine acts as a combo breaker, high double jump velocity means they escape juggles more easily, and they effectively limit optimal finisher options because they don't get KO'd off the top.
The only thing that seems especially stand-out to me is how susceptible they are to grab combos, and while it isn't easy to say spacies shouldn't or don't get hit whatsoever, it's not so much of a stretch to say that about grabs.

They are actually quite easy to combo imo, mainly falco. Plus for the juggling part, they fall so fast and while they can stall in the air, its still easy to juggle them. Plus with falco, getting him off stage horizontally with good knockback will kill him since he has pretty bad recovery. This is just from battling falco, and other spacies occasionally.

Just my $0.02.


Oh and i googled project m tier list and why is toon link on the bottom??

 

[Deleted member]

Oh and i googled project m tier list and why is toon link on the bottom??

DARK DARK REASONS YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW ABOUT

 

[pkblaze]

The terrifying thing about Mango is that he doesn't even do the 20XX stuff (double shine grab, multishines, invincible waveland -> stuff, etc) and still beats almost everyone. I'd hate to see what he'd look like with that stuff incorporated fully.

That's why I feel like he could do it with anybody. All he does seems nested in fundamentals more than tech skill.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

In practice, the spacies have a surprisingly versatile recovery if/when they have a jump due to side+B/up+B mix-ups. Without a jump, however, they recovery is pretty reasonable to edgeguard.

I agree so much. The reason their recovery is better than CF and Ganon (as example) is that those characters can be edgeguarded more easily with less distance to recover from, while both likely get edgeguarded with more distance to recover from. Some characters also have recoveries that are also somehow good for big distances to recover from (in relation to other characters), but their survivability barely increases with decreasing distance to recover from, and in the end I don't know if they are better at recovering than spacies...