Tier List Speculation

[1FD]

This thread needs more of these right?

RANDOM SPECULATION TIME

SS+ drop dead sexy
S too sexy to be true
A exotic on top of sexy
B perfectly sexy characters
C decent but more niche
D worth a look I guess
F oozing the sexy on the floor

SS+

S

A

B

C

D

F


IN ORDER TOO
pretty quickly done but it's not that far off my previous lists as far back as spring but YEAH MORE LISTS YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ganon is certainly not the type of character that needs a cancel.

Wizard punch cancel
yes

 

[Player -0]

I still want to see Ganon's Walock act like SF4's charge attack thing and it has light armor and it stuns like ZSS' D-Smash. Would be cool and not as useless as sing. Also dash cancellable for maximum SF lol.

Mario's fireballs.... A nerf?

Does not compute

Fireballs don't autocancel upon landing (I think). That would hinder the spammability of the projectile and Falco wouldn't get that SHL to harass people linearly off stage. On the flip side Falco can jump super high to send fireballs raining the the sky and walk up shine pressure if the opponent decides to shield the fireball somewhat like Wolf's laser. Falco would get and lose stuff but the lasers go with Falco's kit more imo.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You wish fireballs could auto cancel
He would be the new fox

 

[KayB]

I still want to see Ganon's Walock act like SF4's charge attack thing and it has light armor and it stuns like ZSS' D-Smash. Would be cool and not as useless as sing. Also dash cancellable for maximum SF lol.

That... actually sounds kind of cool.

 

[KHL]

Ganon FADC combos?

pls no

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'd just like to see any storable charge move over the current Warlock punch, if nothing else. When there's such a disparity between the utility of fair and bair you know he'd appreciate the b-turnarounds/reversals, in a similar fashion to Mewtwo or DK, for example.

 

[Mr.Random]

Holy crap I just realized this thread is 2 years old. My goodness does time pass by fast.

 

[Paradoxium]

2 whole years and not a single useful thing was speculated

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

2 whole years and not a single useful thing was speculated

Now try reading my posts. It's like I made this game, m8

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

You wish fireballs could auto cancel
He would be the new fox

They do auto cancel which is why Mario can approach with them. They don't land cancel if that's what you were trying to say..

 

[Sartron]

They do auto cancel which is why Mario can approach with them. They don't land cancel if that's what you were trying to say..

I don't think you know what auto-canceling means.

Auto-canceling cancels the current animation into the empty landing animation upon landing. Mario's fireball animation does not do that.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I don't think you know what auto-canceling means.

Auto-canceling cancels the current animation into the empty landing animation upon landing. Mario's fireball animation does not do that.

I don't think you know what you're talking about...
What you just described was a land cancel. "Returning to the empty landing animation upon landing." i.e. Falco's Laser -__-
An auto cancel is a move that animation's ends before you reach the ground. Meaning it's an automatic cancel. Hence the term "auto-cancel."

 

[Ripple]

auto cancel generally refers to aerials.

when a special is cancelled we usually refer to how it was cancelled. i.e. dash cancel.

fireballs do not cancel at all. they just have low cooldown

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

auto cancel generally refers to aerials.

when a special is cancelled we usually refer to how it was cancelled. i.e. dash cancel.

fireballs do not cancel at all. they just have low cooldown

Something that auto cancels is an auto cancel. No matter the move, simple as that, the only thing that you changed was terminology. But oh, I was under the impression that if you press B as you jump you'd have no landing lag and can shoot another fireball right after. My mistake.

 

[Ripple]

edits: if if every move auto cancels by your definition. that's not how the term is used in the smash community. and you should not apply it

 

[Deleted member]

If it comes from low and mid level players then no. Otherwise I would agree. Most of the PMBR are top or high level players which is why I trust them.

1 this is a logical fallacy 2 feedback from low and mid level players is not necessarily without merit

 

[Mr.Random]

1 this is a logical fallacy 2 feedback from low and mid level players is not necessarily without merit

I love using logical fallacies. Sorry.
Anyways here is my speculation.
Characters that I think are the best:
Characters that are the best currently by results only:
Characters that I feel that are unexplored:
Characters that could be improved slightly or redesigned:
Characters that need to be fixed or tweaked slightly:
Characters I think are really well balanced:

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Can't wolf get punished if he shines someone at low % if they CC? Granted, he could just double shine, but still, tellllll me.

 

[shairn]

How can MK both be best and well balanced? I think he could stand to lose a few things, instead of being Jiggs + Marth + Shiek in a blender. I also struggle to see how you could think Ivy is well balanced, even now.

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur is extremely polarizing and metaknight is a big mesh of everything I wish I had in my character

 

[Mr.Random]

My opinion. Take it with a grain of salt lol.

 

[NickRiddle]

Bowser OP.

http://www.gfycat.com/ImaginaryIncompleteCusimanse

http://www.gfycat.com/ShorttermColorlessAcornwoodpecker

PMDT nerf plz

HOW DO I EMBED THIS STUFF? HELP ME I'M A SCRUB!

 

[pkblaze]

OK time for entitled noobs to submit opinions about balance, woo!

Order within a tier is approximate.

Top tier: Mostly characters that have broken tools or are just way overtuned, imo.




High tier: Characters with well defined strengths, could potentially use a few more weaknesses.



Upper Mid Tier: Characters with well defined strengths and weaknesses


Lower Mid Tier: Characters with well defined strengths and weaknesses. Their weaknesses slightly outweigh their strengths.




Low tier: Characters with unclear or underwhelming strengths, obvious or easily exploitable weaknesses.



Some of these characters I honestly don't have a solid understanding of (Zard, Squirtle, Rob, DDD, to name a few) so they could be wildly wrong.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

All are saying low-mid players' feedback is mostly flawed, but that's also true for high level players.
While there is a correlation between player strength and feedback quality, it isn't that high and good players only need to know what to do, not how good it is in relation to something else. Alarm bells should ring when a top player heavily changes opinions about characters after having played against a good main (I welcome that they change it and are not stubborn, but it means they didn't think enough about it before to give qualified feedback and some of their feedback might still be influenced that way), use arguments of unexploredness while not putting effort in exploring / evaluating the estimated potential (example: "spacies are only good because they are played longer, we don't know about the others"; when you could compare spacie's development speed, their strength at a similar metagame development stage and just comparing overall options). Good playing skills don't necessarily lead to good evaluation skills. Some top players have both though (can often be seen from their argumentative structure) and their opinions should be valued especially high.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Bowser OP.

http://www.gfycat.com/ImaginaryIncompleteCusimanse

http://www.gfycat.com/ShorttermColorlessAcornwoodpecker

PMDT nerf plz

HOW DO I EMBED THIS STUFF? HELP ME I'M A SCRUB!

Lmfao you're a god NR

 

[Bleck]

I still want to see Ganon's Walock act like SF4's charge attack thing and it has light armor and it stuns like ZSS' D-Smash. Would be cool and not as useless as sing. Also dash cancellable for maximum SF lol.

Can we increase the visibility of this, please? This idea is rad as heck.

 

[kaizo13]

i hope that in 3.5, character weaknesses are more of a thing, so that characters aren't overwhelmingly good at everything.

in Melee, characters had very clear weaknesses or bad traits that kept them in check and helped balance their strengths.

When you look at top characters in PM... Mewtwo, Mario, Lucas, Diddy, Metaknight, Pit, Link, etc.

-they all have a strong combo game
-they all have good KO potential
-they all have above average recoveries
-they all have a kill throw or throw>KO follow-up
-they all have good specials/projectiles

it's like they're trying to create a super fighting robot or something (shoutouts to D1)

But really, when you give characters such an amazing moveset from the get-go, there's not much room for them to grow. it takes away from the player experience imo.

 

[CyberZixx]

I tend to agree that the top tiers are characters who excel at too many things. 3.5 recovery's should address this. I find the most inresting design in the game are all mid tier characters. Wario, Toon Link, ZSS, Roy, etc

 

[kaizo13]

the 3.5 recovery nerfs will certainly help, but it won't be enough for some characters. Mewtwo and Pit will most likely still have above average recoveries, rightfully so, but it means other aspects would need to be looked at.

for example, i don't feel Pit needs to be such a powerhouse when he has such insane combo potential. i think a more gimp heavy playstyle would be better suited for him (think Marth) He already has the tools for it, arrows, glide, multiple jumps....

 

[Phan7om]

I personally think its more of a design issue than a balance issue for most characters.

True some characters design flaw feeds into their high tier placement, but removing the over-polarizing moves (PK Fire, Sonic's Down-B, Kirby's DA, etc.)(yes I know Ness and Kirby arent considered high tier, thats not my point) by toning them down and altering their other stats (air mobility, jump squat, wavedash length, ground speed, neutral game, edgeguard game, etc.) instead of just giving the "bad" or "lacking" characters gimmicks which only hurts their design more (like jump cancelled Rollouts, Ganon projectiles, super armor, etc); and reworking the braindead options (whether it be recovery, approaching, combos, etc.) will significantly help this games overall success.

Basically what Im saying is recovery nerfs/changes should only be the first step of many.

 

[Scrubby]

I personally think its more of a design issue than a balance issue for most characters. True some characters design flaw feeds into their high tier placement, but removing the over-polarizing moves (PK Fire, Sonic's Down-B, Kirby's DA, etc.)(yes I know Ness and Kirby arent considered high tier, its not my point) by toning them down and altering their other stats (air mobility, grab range, neutral game, punish game, etc.); and reworking the braindead options (whether it be recovery, approaching, combos, etc.) will significantly help this games overall success.

I would love if they removed ness dependance on pk fire for its neutral game. You don't feel good spamming it just to get across the fact you have basically no way of pressuring a shield and no range.

 

[Bleck]

in Melee, characters had very clear weaknesses or bad traits that kept them in check and helped balance their strengths.

are we talking about the same Melee, here

 

[FreeGamer]

I feel like Fireball Kirby and PK Fire are a poor man's substitute for having an actual neutral game. You know, where there isn't one obviously superior option and your character has mobility fast enough to allow him/her some flexibility? One can only dream...

 

[Scrubby]

Ness has mobility especially on stages with platforms, but still you end up just using pk fire with the movement. It's kinda sad, I don't want people to think I'm a one trick poney, but it's my best option

 

[KHL]

with how easy it is for an experienced opponent to control or at least equal Diddy's banana game in PM, I have a hard time believing he's top 5. most of his match-ups among the most commonly used characters are even, and he has quite a few characters he seems to struggle with (spacies, MK, mewtwo).

maybe it's just my bias as a Diddy main, but I swear I get away with so much dumb stuff (recovering without being punished being a huge one) that should never work because of complete lack of match-up experience, and then those people complain about how Diddy is broken.

 

[kaizo13]

are we talking about the same Melee, here

yes even the top characters in Melee have clear weaknesses

Marth - trouble killing at high %'s, mediocre recovery
Falcon -combo food, mediocre recovery
Sheik - bad/punishable recovery
Jiggs - dies very early
Fox/Falco - combo food, linear recoveries/ easy to edgeguard , requires high tech-skill at top level play

 

[Phan7om]

with how easy it is for an experienced opponent to control or at least equal Diddy's banana game in PM, I have a hard time believing he's top 5. most of his match-ups among the most commonly used characters are even, and he has quite a few characters he seems to struggle with (spacies, MK, mewtwo).

maybe it's just my bias as a Diddy main, but I swear I get away with so much dumb stuff (recovering without being punished being a huge one) that should never work because of complete lack of match-up experience, and then those people complain about how Diddy is broken.

I agree, i dont think hes top 5 either. Aside from bananas, you take away Fair, Dash Attack, and his recovery and he'd be one of the worst imo, like bottom 15. But with those additions I feel hes top 10 maybe. Its mostly just matchup inexperience i'd say, like you said. Dealing with bananas properly and punishing his recovery (which should be easier next patch) alone should make the matchup tons easier.

 

[Bleck]

yes even the top characters in Melee have clear weaknesses

most of these aren't actual weaknesses

 

[steelguttey]

most of these aren't actual weaknesses

..what