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Tier List Speculation

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Captain Falcon's recovery is cheeks.
Why is it that his SideB hasn't been made to be not completely terrible? It snaps onto ledge which is good, but it activates so late after recognizing someone they can WALK out of the way. Also if you land the aerial version on someone he still experiences incredible landing lag and honestly I think he should be able to act after landing the aerial version so he can UpB. You shouldn't get punished for landing a move that is hard to land in the first place.
 

trash?

witty/pretty
Premium
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
3,452
Location
vancouver bc
NNID
????
I'm still standing fully behind my opinion of link's sideb > tlink > link

link would just be some dude in tier lists without the rang, but suddenly with the rang the things he can combo into and out of increase tenfold, because rang goes with everything
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,975
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Ganon's way of life is still a life of hardships

Unless you're Vex. Then it's just a life of Jab to DACUS and killing people before God intends for them to go
 

Stevo

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
2,475
Location
150km north of nowhere, Canada
The terrifying thing about Mango is that he doesn't even do the 20XX stuff (double shine grab, multishines, invincible waveland -> stuff, etc) and still beats almost everyone. I'd hate to see what he'd look like with that stuff incorporated fully.
lol

Mango barely even did 200X stuff like side-b shorten until recently
 

PsionicSabreur

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 6, 2013
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380
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Neither here nor there
They are actually quite easy to combo imo, mainly falco. Plus for the juggling part, they fall so fast and while they can stall in the air, its still easy to juggle them. Plus with falco, getting him off stage horizontally with good knockback will kill him since he has pretty bad recovery. This is just from battling falco, and other spacies occasionally.
Quite easy is an entirely different matter than easy to the point of (suitable) character weakness.
I'm not trying to say that Fox and Falco aren't easy to combo, I'm saying that the rest of the tier list really doesn't get much mileage from their weakness, since it is a weakness shared by many characters.
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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???
Requiring technical perfection in itself is both a weakness and not a weakness. It is because if you mess up once thats yo ass, and that should be a major part of how tier lists are built... instead of the Tourney Results and "I dont know the Matchup" way that it is now. But it is also not a weakness because theoretically you shouldn't mess up tech skill since every input, besides like frame by frame perfect anything, is possible with practice. So a character like Fox shows this "weakness" of if you mess up you should lose a stock, but in turn if you dont mess up you keep your stocks cuz you cant be touched.
 
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Circle_Breaker

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
292
Location
sububububububurbs
There is no problem with high execution characters taking the top tier spots in principle. The same goes for high-risk high-reward characters. It encourages skillful, exciting play. But the risk should be high enough that a player using a lower-tier character should have a good shot at winning by getting just a few good reads. A competent Ganondorf player should actually be able to just about touch-of-death most other characters with relative consistency. Meanwhile Fox should have to work harder to account for good DI and land killing combos.

I think Falco is relatively well designed in this sense. One mistake or good hard read by the opponent and he gets thrown off the ledge and dies at any percent. He might be "20XX" broken but he isn't winning every tournament even 14 (13?) years in to melee.

Fox sucks cause he's actually kind of brain dead due to some ridiculous options and has pretty decent recovery on top of it.
 
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Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
1,753
Location
Bonn, Germany
There is no problem with high execution characters taking the top tier spots in principle. The same goes for high-risk high-reward characters. It encourages skillful, exciting play. But the risk should be high enough that a player using a lower-tier character should have a good shot at winning by getting just a few good reads. A competent Ganondorf player should actually be able to just about touch-of-death most other characters with relative consistency. Meanwhile Fox should have to work harder to account for good DI and land killing combos.

I think Falco is relatively well designed in this sense. One mistake or good hard read by the opponent and he gets thrown off the ledge and dies at any percent. He might be "20XX" broken but he isn't winning every tournament even 14 (13?) years in to melee.

Fox sucks cause he's actually kind of brain dead due to some ridiculous options and has pretty decent recovery on top of it.
There actually is a problem with it, quite a big one (from some level on "skillfuller" characters do have an advantage). The same is true for the opposite (same end-level strength with different difficulty).
 

1FD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
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RUINING EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE
The mental side of the game 'skillfuller'-wise is way more significant.

Wolf hurts my brain, and that's why I love him. The buttons are easy as **** and it's pretty surprising to me when I mess up any of the 'tech' stuff with him.
Decision making though... Utilt/Shine/Uair/How can I combo them into my Flash with a DI mix-up-mixer-upper THIS time? MUHAHAH
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I've won tournies before with tink only but no one remembers them

in the aaaaaaaaaaarms oooooooooof the aaaaaangeeeeeeeeeeeeeels...
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Bad ideas are bad

Leave Ganon alone, but make his body Pikachu's size while retaining his original attack hitboxes

Also, he can grab anyone 100000x pixels away horizontally whenever he grabs

Am I Smash 4 Dev now?
 
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Zx2963

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 11, 2014
Messages
253
Location
New Jersey
Bad ideas are bad

Leave Ganon alone, but make his body Pikachu's size while retaining his original attack hitboxes

Also, he can grab anyone 100000x pixels away horizontally whenever he grabs

Am I Smash 4 Dev now?
Why not also give him a sword 3x the length of Ike :awesome:
 

1FD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
618
Location
RUINING EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE
All that stuff sounds about right.
Like really, Mario and others were beasts and then given fireballs etc, then Pit, Sonic, and Diddy, all got buffed going into 3.0 when they're already solid near the top.
Now it's like we gotta buff Mewtwo and MK or something.

Ganon B should be Shadow Ball
Give Mewtwo Psychic instead so he can hit the whole screen already.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
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Pittsburgh, PA
A grab shouldn't extend so far behind that it starts to grab those who shield pressure the back of their shields. I get you shouldn't be trying to be inside of them when you pressure their shields, but a solid placed attack should not be punished on the back of a shield by a grab. DK, Mewtwo, and Ivy do it the most, but I've had other chars do it too. It looks weird when Lucas does that ish.
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,133
gonna post that again for posterity

grab boxes should be on a character's hands
 

KayB

Smash Master
BRoomer
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Jan 2, 2013
Messages
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Seoul, South Korea
I dunno about grab boxes being on character's hands, but I still think that grabbing a character behind you is pretty silly.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
IIRC, most of the time when grabs have a backwards box, it's dash grabs? Otherwise, a majority of backwards grabs probably come from players sticking out attacks that go through the grabber's body and get that limb grabbed.
 
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