Tier List Speculation

[Foo]

I agree with shokio. Some people say spacies aren't that great, it's just that people haven't figured out how to use other characters as much, but I think it cuts the other way. The only reason spacies aren't at the VERY top is because everyone already knows all their weaknesses so well. No melee player can come close to competing if they don't know how to beat spacies.

 

[NickRiddle]

srsly PMDT pls nerf

 

[didds]

srsly PMDT pls nerf

lol, just ignore the convo and self plug instead.

I'm your new fan now.

 

[NickRiddle]

lol, just ignore the convo and self plug instead.

I'm your new fan now.

I mean, Fox and Falco are stupid, but keeping them how they will draw in Melee players.

 

[1FD]

I agree with shokio. Some people say spacies aren't that great, it's just that people haven't figured out how to use other characters as much, but I think it cuts the other way. The only reason spacies aren't at the VERY top is because everyone already knows all their weaknesses so well. No melee player can come close to competing if they don't know how to beat spacies.

I don't know about that and see it the other way.
Most of the goodish players I've seen on streams and things seem to have a lot of difficulty with melee top-tiers that they really shouldn't have. Fox/Falco/Falcon/etc, simply because they probably didn't play top melee or at least decent level melee.
Almost all of the time this is very easy to see actually.

to give example
I've seen people shield for like half a second to block things like ness pk fires, bowser down bs, etc. Like a simple spot dodge and punish works most of the time. You could roll and taunt and still punish bowser/ike fsmashes and bigger hits in the game.
Nobody should shield that crap anymore given the fact that that's EXACTLY what not to do. But goodish players are still doing it (even the 'top players' thing is full of this gross stuff)

To add to that kind of thing back to the WD punish topic.
Every character in Melee can WD OOS and Grab Marth if Marth hits their shield with Fsmash. EVERY one of them regardless of tipper/distance/etc.
I still see crap even MORE punishable than a Marth fsmash on shield go completely unpunished (or even connect LOL) at a top pm level.

If you're any character with an even mildly quick aerial, there's no reason you should be in your shield for the full duration of a falcon SH stomp. **** doesn't work in high level melee but it does in high level PM.

The -melee top tiers know how to be played AGAINST- argument is completely wrong. No matter how 'legit' it might seem.

 

[didds]

I mean, Fox and Falco are stupid, but keeping them how they will draw in Melee players.

mo munyzzz

 

[jtm94]

I don't know if people know this, but this isn't melee.
It's as if we have the option to take out the busted elements from Melee like spacies, and fix the low tier problems that the game had. For sure some characters right now are stupid Fox/Falco level use the same moves that can't be punished until you get a hit and then win. Those characters are not fine either. 10+ years just isn't enough time to play a character I guess.

I don't have any problems with Melee. I still throw it in and practice movement from time to time, but the PM community is large enough that it does not matter in the slightest if a small portion of the Melee community right now is not accepting of the game. From a different perspective, it does not matter if I don't accept the game as long as other people do.

TL;DR Fox and Falco can be removed from the game no one cares if Melee players don't play. Same goes for Diddy/Lucas/Pit and Brawl players. This game caters to no one so just nerf the braindead characters already, or not.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

But top level players are incredibly important to a community. A lot of top level players are also melee players.

On a different note I feel like people have been severely underrating the effects of small changes to the engine from Melee to PM on the tier list. For example RAR - it makes bairs a viable approach instead of mostly a passive spacing tool. This is a big buff to characters like Sheik where it is their longest move and it opens up more safe approaches. Also b-reversal and wavebounce (retreating thunders from pikachu). Stuff like this ends up being huge at 20XX level and in specific matchups that people talk about as if they've been straight up ported from melee.

 

[1FD]

But top level players are incredibly important to a community. A lot of top level players are also melee players.

On a different note I feel like people have been severely underrating the effects of small changes to the engine from Melee to PM on the tier list. For example RAR - it makes bairs a viable approach instead of mostly a passive spacing tool. This is a big buff to characters like Sheik where it is their longest move and it opens up more safe approaches. Also b-reversal and wavebounce (retreating thunders from pikachu). Stuff like this ends up being huge at 20XX level and in specific matchups that people talk about as if they've been straight up ported from melee.

http://smashboards.com/threads/post-too-big-good-for-threads.364992/

 

[Bleck]

But top level players are incredibly important to a community.

You can tell by how often they post here.

 

[Plum]

The game shouldn't be balanced in a way that tries to make Melee players happy.
The Melee players that you are trying to appease by leaving spacies mostly as is already don't care about PM. So just **** 'em, and balance spacies along with the rest of the BS in this game.
Make Project M players happy. They should be infinitely more important than Melee players.

 

[Zx2963]

The game shouldn't be balanced in a way that tries to make Melee players happy.
The Melee players that you are trying to appease by leaving spacies mostly as is already don't care about PM. So just **** 'em, and balance spacies along with the rest of the BS in this game.
Make Project M players happy. They should be infinitely more important than Melee players.

Spacies are fine at the moment, their are not broken, unlike other characters.

 

[Bleck]

The game shouldn't be balanced in a way that tries to make Melee players happy.
The Melee players that you are trying to appease by leaving spacies mostly as is already don't care about PM. So just **** 'em, and balance spacies along with the rest of the BS in this game.
Make Project M players happy. They should be infinitely more important than Melee players.

Quoting this for posterity.

 

[steelguttey]

Quoting this for posterity.

you know there is a like button you pc++ piece of ****

 

[MLGF]

I mean it's true. Melee players in my region dropped the game because they can't handle things like our nairzard. I have no idea why we're trying to appeal to them when they constantly moan in the face of something unknown.

 

[1FD]

I like fighting Fox and Falco as they are.
You have more fun against Oli/Ivy/Zelda/TL/DK/Ness/ROB/Ooze or what's the deal with people around here?
I WANT to play PM and I WANT to fight Fox and Falco with other characters.
I WANT to play PM and I WANT to fight non-Melee characters with Fox and Falco.
I WANT to play all of those crazy bizarre intricate match-ups that are like mini-games (but not the IC's level) within the Smash faculties.

GIMME MORE WOLVES/FOXES/BIRDS/METAKNIGHTS/LUCASES/SONICS/ETC BABY YAAAAAAA

I don't mind getting combo'd by the Mario and Pit stuff either. Dass cu yaw too

 

[DMG]

I have more fun against chars like Marth, since it's more likely that you're only/specifically trying to outplay the opponent instead of additional character burden that follows super top tiers. You're fighting that dude: we all like fighting dudes right?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

That list is great except for Snake

Haven't really played him that much. just seen people use him. might edit the list.

 

[menotyou135]

I love how people are saying to remove/nerf falco despite the fact that in this meta he isn't even top teir.

I kind of understand Fox, but he isn't even the best character in this game and tbh, the lack of invincibility on shine and weaker lazers are all that was really needed to make him more balanced. This is coming from someone who hates playing as spacies and has a lot of trouble against them.

Also, a flat nerf to Fox would be raising the ceiling on PS2 or smashville (or both) because most of his advantage comes from the fact that the two most preferred maps in this game have absurdly low ceilings.

How about rather than taking the nerf gun to everything we don't like, we buff the characters that underperform so they can catch up to the top tiers? The recovery nerf will already fix a fair number of the problems people have with top tiers in this game.

How about letting the meta evolve over time rather than criticize the game so strongly when there is already changes coming?

 

[DMG]

>All that Fox needed were baby nerfs like Laser % and Shine Inv

>Btw let's nerf some ceilings for Fox

>How about we don't change stuff and let the meta evolve


You put all of that in 1 post? Gotta be more consistent

 

[Shokio]

Also, a flat nerf to Fox would be raising the ceiling on PS2 or smashville (or both) because most of his advantage comes from the fact that the two most preferred maps in this game have absurdly low ceilings.

How about rather than taking the nerf gun to everything we don't like, we buff the characters that underperform so they can catch up to the top tiers? The recovery nerf will already fix a fair number of the problems people have with top tiers in this game.

How about letting the meta evolve over time rather than criticize the game so strongly when there is already changes coming?

Fox's UpSmash does not care about ceilings. It doesn't care about your weight, fall speed, anything. It just erases your existence lol. (Of course these things actually do matter, but at the end of the day the UpSmash is going to kill you earlier than it should period.)

Why focus on buffing 35 characters, when they can just nerf 6? The latter takes much less time and work, and is safer to do. If you try to buff the entire roster, just MORE silly **** will get into the game. It's easier and safer to nerf a FEW than buff many.

And we're talking Fox and Falco here, right? Their meta's are already developed. So I don't really know what you were saying with that last sentence.

 

[DMG]

He means the meta for other chars, like letting Pit flesh out before we nerf his grab, jumps, glide, Upb sweetspot, Arrows, AND Usmash in the same patch. Even if all of those things were found out to deserve nerfs in the end LOL. That would be ironic

 

[Deleted member]

How am I suppose to reply when you write an essay. Stahp dat

Dude thats how I feel about this ENTIRE thread. I'd reply to people but if I wanted to read a book I'd actually do my middle school homework

 

[Bleck]

you know there is a like button you pc++ piece of ****

I am not an object-oriented database system and I find it offense that you would even suggest it.

 

[DMG]

I am Bender, please insert girder

 

[menotyou135]

And we're talking Fox and Falco here, right? Their meta's are already developed. So I don't really know what you were saying with that last sentence.

He means the meta for other chars, like letting Pit flesh out before we nerf his grab, jumps, glide, Upb sweetspot, Arrows, AND Usmash in the same patch. Even if all of those things were found out to deserve nerfs in the end LOL. That would be ironic

This is what I meant. Fox and Falco have 10 years of meta developed. We know what is OP about them because we have known for years. Flat nerfing them across the board is not the way to go. Small adjustments are the way to go. If we nerf Usmash on fox it should be tiny nerfs at best. That's why no invincibility on shine was a decent change along with the lazers. They nerfed run away strats and made countering up close strats more managable.

Fox's UpSmash does not care about ceilings. It doesn't care about your weight, fall speed, anything. It just erases your existence lol. (Of course these things actually do matter, but at the end of the day the UpSmash is going to kill you earlier than it should period.)

Why focus on buffing 35 characters, when they can just nerf 6? The latter takes much less time and work, and is safer to do. If you try to buff the entire roster, just MORE silly **** will get into the game. It's easier and safer to nerf a FEW than buff many.

Isn't that the original focus of project M? To make all of the characters as viable as the top 12 of melee with melee style mechanics?

Why focus on buffing 35 characters? We don't have to buff that many. A lot of the cast have potential that has yet to be reached. People are still learning how to counter the top tiers with these characters. I imagine that if 3.5 had another year before it came out, that some of the current problems people are ******** about would not be mentioned nearly as much because game play with those characters would be much different. Fox wasn't considered #1 on the tier list until many of his advanced techniques became standard. It started as sheik. Jigglypuff was mid teir for a very long time before people realized how good she could be. If you go back to when m2's tele nair became popular people immediately called for a nerf. Now people don't talk about it nearly as much because they have learned to play around it.

Furthermore, the recovery nerfs will change how a lot of the top tier threats like M2 and pit play and may fix many of the problems.

 

[1FD]

He means the meta for other chars, like letting Pit flesh out before we nerf his grab, jumps, glide, Upb sweetspot, Arrows, AND Usmash in the same patch. Even if all of those things were found out to deserve nerfs in the end LOL. That would be ironic

Is the opposite of this the reason why his Grab was buffed when he was already contending for top tier in 2.6b?
"He's probably not as good as we think, and will fall off so much in time that he probably needs a buff right now."
-The Marioballz come along and it's like repeat-time.

 

[DMG]

He got a bit more grab range on standing grab. I don't think that changed his throw game by a significant degree, since after the initial grab he usually has the momentum from dashing/running to get his usual regrabs?

 

[JOE!]

Just wanna say that increasing ceiling height nerfs more than just Fox

 

[Paradoxium]

Just wanna say that increasing ceiling height nerfs more than just Fox

It helps nerfs the other ******** characters like Sonic, Lucas, Mew2, ect.

I hope they do a huge nerf sweep with 3.5

I wanna see hover out of teleport gone, m2k doesn't even use hover out of teleport and he still kicks ass

lasers nerfed, make them so you cant spam them like crazy. At the bare minimum you should at least be able to attack through them.


should have his upsmash and up air nerfed. I also think his general speed (Movement, attacks, rolls) should be slowed down, but i doubt it will ever happen.

should have his kill throw removed and make his combos less free

is a piece of **** and should be burned on the stake

is disgusting, weaken her camp game so she has to do something other than bair and razor leaf.
How could the pmbr let boomerang slide right into 3.0, completely brainless attack. Like what the hell? Free shield pressure + free combos + free space control all in one move
If someone wants to be good at the game they should at least have to put some effort into it
make it so you cant dash cancel lasers. There is no reason to give an extremely mobile character and extremely mobile/cheap projectile
Make it so you can actually escape his combos (aka make him melee kirby)
please nerf pk fire hat **** is stupid, but in return give him a neutral game
this piece of **** should just be burned on the ground, he doesn't deserve a stake
side b egg roll is dumb, remove please
CC dtilt = stock
the disaster master himself
I don't even know what i would do with this character

yep that's about it

 

[DMG]

>Make it so you can escape Pit combos

translation:

>Make him Melee Kirby

 

[Circle_Breaker]

http://smashboards.com/threads/post-too-big-good-for-threads.364992/

I finally read through that whole thread and there are some good insights that would be helpful for everybody to internalize, but the gifs and bloated verbosity really don't help. Like, it's really brilliant and detailed with good specific examples but it should have all the extra crap stripped and maybe it would be read by as many people as it deserves to be.

 

[Plum]

DMG for pres

I finally read through that whole thread and there are some good insights that would be helpful for everybody to internalize, but the gifs and bloated verbosity really don't help. Like, it's really brilliant and detailed with good specific examples but it should have all the extra crap stripped and maybe it would be read by as many people as it deserves to be.

Welcome to Nausica posts, enjoy your stay!

 

[shairn]

Nerf Bowser
You wot m8

 

[Shokio]

It helps nerfs the other ******** characters like Sonic, Lucas, Mew2, ect.

I hope they do a huge nerf sweep with 3.5

I wanna see hover out of teleport gone, m2k doesn't even use hover out of teleport and he still kicks ***

lasers nerfed, make them so you cant spam them like crazy. At the bare minimum you should at least be able to attack through them.


should have his upsmash and up air nerfed. I also think his general speed (Movement, attacks, rolls) should be slowed down, but i doubt it will ever happen.

should have his kill throw removed and make his combos less free

is a piece of **** and should be burned on the stake

is disgusting, weaken her camp game so she has to do something other than bair and razor leaf.
How could the pmbr let boomerang slide right into 3.0, completely brainless attack. Like what the hell? Free shield pressure + free combos + free space control all in one move
If someone wants to be good at the game they should at least have to put some effort into it
make it so you cant dash cancel lasers. There is no reason to give an extremely mobile character and extremely mobile/cheap projectile
Make it so you can actually escape his combos (aka make him melee kirby)
please nerf pk fire hat **** is stupid, but in return give him a neutral game
this piece of **** should just be burned on the ground, he doesn't deserve a stake
side b egg roll is dumb, remove please
CC dtilt = stock
the disaster master himself
I don't even know what i would do with this character

yep that's about it

Get rid of the dash cancel lasers? Countering her approach with those is literally as easy as roling toward her as she's running at you with the laser.....or you could jump while she's taking 5 minutes to charge it. The projectile itself is very slow and weak, it's not like you can spam them like Falco lasers or Mario Fireballs. They're on the the slowest projectiles in the game, especially when it's a charge shot.

I agree that Squirtle is a annoying POS, but that doesn't mean he's unbalanced or anything. He's fine. All he needs is more endlag on his Down Smash when it hits shield.

Bowser? Really? If he was sooooo good, tons more people would use him.

Lucario is very easy to fight against, one of the easiest characters in the game. Like literally lol.

Yoshi's side B needs to have no priority, I'll say that. But it doesn't need to be taken out.

Ivy isn't THAT bad. She just needs her Bair nerfed and her Up-B sweetpot hotbox nerfed (that **** is silly)

 

[Paradoxium]

Get rid of the dash cancel lasers? Countering her approach with those is literally as easy as roling toward her as she's running at you with the laser. The projectile itself is very slow and weak, it's not like you can spam them like Falco lasers or Mario Fireballs. They're on the the slowest projectiles in the game, especially when it's a charge shot.

I agree that Squirtle is a annoying POS, but that doesn't mean he's unbalanced or anything. He's fine. All he needs is more endlag on his Down Smash when it hits shield.

Bowser? Really? If he was sooooo good, tons more people would use him.

Lucario is very easy to fight against, one of the easiest characters in the game. Like literally lol.

Yoshi's side B needs to have no priority, I'll say that. But it doesn't need to be taken out.

Ivy isn't THAT bad. She just needs her Bair nerfed and her Up-B sweetpot hotbox nerfed (that **** is silly)

K I dont think Bowser is op, I just think his whole design in awful.

Lucario can get insane conversions off of 1 crouch cancel down tilt which I think is really stupid

Yoshi's side B is really stupid, they don't need to get rid of it they just have to lower the priority like you said

Ivy needs to have her recovery reworked, I think it would be best if they just removed her tether and gave her a different up b for recovering. Mainly because some characters can't edge guard Ivy, and for some characters its free. And there really isn't a whole lot Ivy can do about it. Imo her recovery is too one dimensional. not only that but she has that dthrow up b bull****, and even if you di you will probably still get ****ed in some way. The up b sweetspot is dumb if you ask me. And I think her bair should be nerfed along with her dair and uair. The thing I dislike about her uair is that it blasts her down and spikes you at the same time, io also hate how her dair keeps her afloat for so long.

Squirtle is annoying, super annoying. And I'm sure literally everyone who has played against a squirtle has to agree. I have no solid proof or evidence but I can assure you that all non squirtle main would be happy if he was changed. And there are A LOT of non squirtle mains. Its just an annoying character who no one likes

I still think Zss lasers are annoying as hell and should take longer to be dash canceled, but thats just my opinion

 

[shairn]

You were talking about nerfs and then mentioned Bowser
Do tell about how his design is awful.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I can throw any projectile at yoshi side b and end it. I can play a swordy and dtilt it for free. I see no problem.

 

[Shokio]

I didn't mention Ivy's recovery because we know 3.5 is happening. Not point in mentioning it.

What's awful about Bowser's design?

Funny you mention Lucario CC, when CC is his BIGGEST weakness. He's problem the #1 susceptible character to CC in the entire game. Pick Roy against a Lucario and watch how easy it is. It literally almost destroys his entire neutral game. Sounds like this is a matter of not knowing and exploiting Lucario's weaknesses.

Like I said I agree Squirtle is very annoying, but you want/expect a character to be changed if that character is fair. If he' snot broken he's not getting changed. I understand the way you feel, trust me lol, but it is what it is.

I don't understand how you seem to be getting pressured so well by ZSS lasers. Are you STANDING there letting someone set them up? Cause having 2 lasers flying at you one behind the other literally takes set-up time.

 

[Rᴏb]

Bowser relies solely on punishes to do well, meaning he has no options in the neutral game. Personally I think he's worse then Ganon in that respect, but his gimmicks make him slightly better overall. I really wish they looked past his melee design when they made him because I really don't think it's possible to make that kit anything better than subpar. pmdt redesign pls