Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
Ics need neutral options and an actual punish game.
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
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- hinichii
- 3DS FC
- 2423-5382-7542
Every time I say that first part, people like, nah man, it can't be true. lel
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
Icies need to be a pair of Foxes IMO.
PlateProp
Smash Master
1FD
Smash Ace
Solo IC needs to get jacked and the AI is a bonus.
When Sopo is a 'not godang awful character' then IC's will be functional.
When Sopo is a 'not godang awful character' then IC's will be functional.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Wow, what a series of insightful opinions we just received from a string of experienced players.
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PlateProp
Smash Master
Don't lie, you WANT to fight for twice the amount of friends.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Normally I like your posts, but I have to ask on this one- do you have eyes? Have you not seen Sonic?
Also I played Demo 1.0 when it was new.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
My questions are to get a clear summary
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
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I dont like your tone
1FD
Smash Ace
^What they said
I thought 2.1 Sonic was fine aside from the invincible REEEEEEE glitch.
But even then he was still polarizing >_>
I thought 2.1 Sonic was fine aside from the invincible REEEEEEE glitch.
But even then he was still polarizing >_>
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Here's a good palette cleanser for your ears then
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Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Sonic's main problem is that he has a great combo-starter move (with a million hitboxes and can be used across the stage) that he can commit to while suffering little-to-no risk. Unless you play a swordy or some other character with long, disjoint pokes, he can be extremely hard to fight. And even then, it can be risky at times to try to poke or slash him out of spin-dash because the timing is easy to mess up (he moves pretty fast), so you can get punished.
But yeah, spot-dodge his spin dash? Doesn't matter, he can't really get punished. He's already too far behind you. Shield his spin dash? Doesn't matter, you're staying in that shield because he can just do a sharp turn to keep the pressure on until he gets to a safe distance.
Amazing combo tools such as that should be high-risk high-reward (combo dash-attacks, for instance), but Sonic lacks the risk and has all of the reward. That's why lots of newer players tend to gravitate toward him, because they see that they can attempt to hit other players while suffering low chance of being hit themselves. They like how safe he is.
But yeah, spot-dodge his spin dash? Doesn't matter, he can't really get punished. He's already too far behind you. Shield his spin dash? Doesn't matter, you're staying in that shield because he can just do a sharp turn to keep the pressure on until he gets to a safe distance.
Amazing combo tools such as that should be high-risk high-reward (combo dash-attacks, for instance), but Sonic lacks the risk and has all of the reward. That's why lots of newer players tend to gravitate toward him, because they see that they can attempt to hit other players while suffering low chance of being hit themselves. They like how safe he is.
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Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
I know right? It'd be a nightmare if anyone BUT scrubs used him.
1FD
Smash Ace
My region is generally trash, and the worst of the trash uses Sonic only.
Truuuuuuu fax right there shokio + dmg
Truuuuuuu fax right there shokio + dmg
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
I heard something about 3.5 being changed signifcantly from 3.02 and that the characters that people complain about (Mario, Mewtwo, Lucas, Sonic, Diddy, etc) are getting nerfs. Apparently 3.5 is going to be "very different" from previous entries in an attempt of make it feel more like Melee.
So our 3.02 problems seem to be solved somewhat. More like Melee=less autocombos, weaker recoveries and less free neutral games.
Looks like characters will have less free options (besides spacies because otherwise mega Melee johns) and more skill based play will happen.And maybe Sethlon could win a national!
So our 3.02 problems seem to be solved somewhat. More like Melee=less autocombos, weaker recoveries and less free neutral games.
Looks like characters will have less free options (besides spacies because otherwise mega Melee johns) and more skill based play will happen.
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victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Honestly I think if Sethlon played a top tier in Melee, I think he'd be a god, or somewhere around Hax's level. Now Roy is actually decent in Project M, so recovery nerfs=easier edgeguards, and less autocombos means Roy has more escape attempts. Sethlon could likely destroy people now.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Don't forget that Shokio guy! *Kappa*
D
Deleted member
Guest
when 3.5 comes out, I'll actually play more Roy in tourney. I hate playing roy in 3.02 and realizing "Oh yeah, I kind of have to work x10 harder than my opponent"
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
You already have to work harder with Tink though.
D
Deleted member
Guest
No, tinks neutral game is pretty auto-piloty and his hitconfirms are insanely stupid. Roy has to space so well and deal with so many stupidly safe projectiles. I loooove roy and my roy is good but I don't want to put that much effort in vs stupid 3.02 characters. IDK how sethlon did it in melee man...
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
From my post in another thread:
He's got losing (and in some cases, unwinnable) matchups pretty much across the board. Bowser loses to Jiggs (due to the ludicrous ease of resting him), Olimar (for the same reason that Bowser loses to other characters with long grabs and huge disjoint), ICs (their combos on him are absolutely insane, plus his command grab and dash grab are totally nullified, and their projectile appears to have been designed specifically to screw bowser), and to Ganondorf (whose aerials are totally safe on Bowser's shield, and has a command grab that stuffs most of Bowser's options while leading to insane kill combos).
CF, Ivysaur, ZSS, Link, and Mewtwo are effectively guaranteed losses for Bowser.
In short, Bowser loses to all the other consensus "terrible" or "bottom 5" characters, and it hardly gets better as you move up the tier list. He does have a couple even or positive MUs (such as Falco), but you could probably count them on one hand.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Didn't Hax drop Falcon because of how easy it is to CC his nair (in addition to other things)?
Doesn't Bowser have the best CC in the game?
This is definitely me not knowing much about how Bowser works, but how would Bowser lose to CF?
Doesn't Bowser have the best CC in the game?
This is definitely me not knowing much about how Bowser works, but how would Bowser lose to CF?
D
Deleted member
Guest
CF grabs bowser
the end
the end
Hax dropped Falcon in Melee. I have no idea how much Falcon he uses in PM, but it would probably be over 50%. I can imagine Melee players don't want to throw off their Fox since some of his stuff is easier to execute, would not be surprised if this was the case for him.
I don't think Falcon's Nair is easier to CC than Melee. The bigger problem he has is that there are a lot of short characters, and Nair is a **** move for those characters. Try to Nair a MK, it might as well be the most worthless aerial lol.
I don't think Falcon's Nair is easier to CC than Melee. The bigger problem he has is that there are a lot of short characters, and Nair is a **** move for those characters. Try to Nair a MK, it might as well be the most worthless aerial lol.
Shokio
Netplay 4 Days
Ah, I thought you were talking about recoveries.
jtm94
Smash Lord
MK's jab beats Captain Falcon alone. Nair wins the game. Things are easier to CC in PM on average because there are more playable heavy characters. It seems like Mario has a god CC because he is heavier than pretty much the entire Melee top tier lineup. The problem is that characters are much heavier than Mario and have CC on par with Samus so things are a bit dumb atm, aka just hold down.
I can't wait until Mario isn't the best at everything.
I can't wait until Mario isn't the best at everything.
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
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Tink confirmed broken
D
Deleted member
Guest
he didn't actually. sethlon has always been known as a good roy player in melee, but a lot of other roys had better tournament records such as neo, myself, ninjalink, azen, and a few players were better at the character on virtue of who they were like mew2king and ken. this isn't to knock sethlon at all, but imo he got WAY better going into PM in terms of his performance even ignoring the character changes.
Mario's CC is a monster for a few reasons, high weight, godly moves and grabs out of CC, high incentive to attempt trades because he already always wins them, excellent combo weight, and can escape a lot imperfect set-ups with up B (especially if it hits). fireball also forces a lot of conversions on mario to be awkwardly placed and/or sour spot hits with even more opportunities for CC.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
But Umbreon.... You forgot the part where Mario's down tilt has intangibility?
menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
More people should vote in this so it can stabilize more: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/
Right now there are a few things that are quite odd on this list IMO, and it is strange to pick the tier list by voting for individual matchups, but it isn't a bad list overall.
Right now there are a few things that are quite odd on this list IMO, and it is strange to pick the tier list by voting for individual matchups, but it isn't a bad list overall.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Why wouldn't a tier list be decided by who has the overall most favorable/even matchups?
EDIT: What the hell according to this Marth's best matchup is D3 while it's often agreed here to be 6:4 or 7:3 in favor of D3
0/10 list would not consult
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Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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- 9,632
this is why I'm not gonna bother with it. If people want opinions on D3 match ups, they should ask a good D3 main.
menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
Well imagine a melee list where a hypothetical character had 100:0 matchup against all characters below ice climbers and a 0:100 matchup against all characters ice climbers and above. When the match starts against any of the top tiers he just automatically SDs 4 times without any control and when he is against mid-bottom tiers the other character automatically SDs 4 times without any control.
Under this system, that character's matchup rating would be about 69%. Fox's matchup rating (at least according to SSBwiki) is about 68%. That means that even though said hypothetical character would be physically incapable of winning against any of the characters that the vast majority of people play in tournaments (and the others could just switch), he would be number 1 on the tier list, when in reality, such a character would be the worst character in the game.
Now obviously this is a hypothetical taking things to extremes but in a realistic setting, a character could move up or down several spots based off of polarizing matchups.
To further illustrate this point, look at the matchup averages on the matchup chart on SSBwiki:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchups_(SSBM)
Under this, Ganon and Samus should both be higher and Yoshi should be grouped with bowser and kirby, and those matchup averages are rounded. If you don't round them, then a lot of characters move around one or two places.
I know this chart is outdated, but it is simply being used to illustrate a point.
EDIT: Also that chart was started yesterday so it isn't really stable at the moment. For example, since the first time I looked at it around 3 hours ago, jigglypuff has moved up one, Link has moved from 6th to 4th, Sonic has moved to 10th from 11th, (and the inverse to marth), Falco dropped from 4th to 5th, and Donkey Kong rose a spot or two (not entirely sure).
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