Paradoxium
Smash Master
I just really dislike how it can combo into itself while having such low cooldown and fast start up. To me it's just a very lazy move.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
i dont like fireballs bananas falco zss pit lasers either and yet boomerang isnt nearly as good as those
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
Yea I'm going to have to say this isn't true about Sonic. He could very well be the slowest character in the game and nobody would know it because of how over-centralized he is around down B.
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B.W.
Smash Champion
We don't have any Sonic mains that really place so I can't comment on that one personally.
Also Link's boomerang is kind of silly with how free it is to throw it. It could stand to come out a little slower, or have a little more recovery at the end of the move. Not both though. My personal opinion.
ICs are definitely not fine. Everything that made them good in previous games is pretty much gone.
Olimar is fine in moveset for the most part, but the Pikmin line falls apart a lot causing your gameplans to get ruined and causing your recovery to fail. Stuff like that needs to be fixed, then he's good.
Also Link's boomerang is kind of silly with how free it is to throw it. It could stand to come out a little slower, or have a little more recovery at the end of the move. Not both though. My personal opinion.
ICs are definitely not fine. Everything that made them good in previous games is pretty much gone.
Olimar is fine in moveset for the most part, but the Pikmin line falls apart a lot causing your gameplans to get ruined and causing your recovery to fail. Stuff like that needs to be fixed, then he's good.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you can make any char in the game into "chaingrabs- the character" and you want to ruin a character as unique as ice climbers? IC in the previous two games were awful characters attached to wholly degenerate mechanics abuse for their punishment games, that's the exact thing we're trying to avoid for PM, for both issues.
stop trying to infinite and actually try to play them for what they are, they're not bad at all.
B.W.
Smash Champion
They're pretty bad. I don't know many characters that have issues separating them, and their desyncs have gone from being a powerful mechanic that was needed to win, to being a weak mechanic that's still needed to win even though it no longer achieves much.
I'm not for giving them infinite chaingrabs back, but as they are they really could use some kind of boost.
I'm not for giving them infinite chaingrabs back, but as they are they really could use some kind of boost.
menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
There is an icy player from my area who refused to play any other character in melee and brawl. He doesn't play 64 because his favorite character is ice climbers. He has been trying the PM ice climbers for a while and he has come to the conclusion that he needs to switch mains in PM because he hates them. He has compared them to pichu in melee and ganon in brawl.
He also doesn't use the infinite chain grabs of either game often, which is okay for him because our local TO bans wobbling and he still places well.
He also doesn't use the infinite chain grabs of either game often, which is okay for him because our local TO bans wobbling and he still places well.
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InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
I've yet to talk to an ICs player of any stripe that didn't think the PM incarnation needed some help. We know that there are issues with their throw release points that have been fixed for 3.5, but I don't know enough about PM ICs to say if there are any other issues.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
What this man said a thousand times.
Also he's not bad offstage, really solid on stage, downthrow into fair meteor at the edge for low % KOs, upthrough into uair uair uair KOs. I honestly tried Sonic out and he is pretty good. I am not fluent on DownB movement, but I have gotten derp KOs off Side B off the stage into fair. I've also had my Sonic friend dair me off stage>end up below me>uair>UpB and bair me back onto the stage. A lot of characters have timers off stage so they miss an option and they have to get back. Roy can't even aerial off stage without risking his life and that's the price he pays for an on stage game.
Link is pretty good. His boomerang is quite fast, maybe too fast, but we won't truly see how good he is until the other super saiyans calm down.
ICs are pretty decent just by looking at their moves. 3 frame jump squat, good wavedash, reward fundamentals, reward creativity. IMO they are the epitome of good smash character. They have lackluster recovery when apart because SideB can't grab ledge straight up, but they have massive damage output, and KO throws because of smash attacks. The only thing I want back is the grab-release point to be returned to where it was in Melee so hand-offs(which are not an infinite) can be made more doable. It already required specific timing for every single character and was not bad for the game. Even to get double regrab requires Nana to do a specific throw based on stage-positioning.
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MudkipUniverse
Smash Ace
IMO fox should've got a nerf.
A slight nerf.
A slight nerf.
D
Deleted member
Guest
oh and I think sonic has some bad stuff that I don't agree with. As oracle has said many times (and I agree with ofc), a lot of characters in pm have great options when they're above their opponent unlike melee, which was a very ground based game (ex. marth hits sheik into the air, marth is now rewarded and punishes sheik). Part of what is toxic in PM is the fact that characters have great escape options while being juggled, Sonics up b being one of them. Sometimes you're punished for putting your opponent above you, that should never be the case.
ONCE AGAIN MY OPINION DON'T HURT PLS COPYRIGHTED, ORIGINAL THE CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL
ONCE AGAIN MY OPINION DON'T HURT PLS COPYRIGHTED, ORIGINAL THE CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL
D
Deleted member
Guest
i think i love you
....
when you're 18 i'll love you*
@ meno i don't know a single player that likes their melee character in PM so i'm not surprised.
....
when you're 18 i'll love you*
@ meno i don't know a single player that likes their melee character in PM so i'm not surprised.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
@Lunch I agree again a thousand times.
I don't like super fastfall options like Wario dair, Sonic dair, MK dair, Ivy uair. It feels like Wario dair is plus on shield and it leads into footstool and nair if they continue to shield. I disagree with fastfalls that have hitboxes. Ivy's is the lease threatening of the 4 imo. I have a very hard time juggling the other 3 because even if I guess right a time or two I will eventually whiff expecting it and they make it to the ground through that hole.
Maybe Fox should have to learn to play MUs instead of exercising similar strats against everyone and seeing success. No matter how you cut the cake his upsmash is not fair by any means. It's such a fast option on a fast character.
I don't like super fastfall options like Wario dair, Sonic dair, MK dair, Ivy uair. It feels like Wario dair is plus on shield and it leads into footstool and nair if they continue to shield. I disagree with fastfalls that have hitboxes. Ivy's is the lease threatening of the 4 imo. I have a very hard time juggling the other 3 because even if I guess right a time or two I will eventually whiff expecting it and they make it to the ground through that hole.
Maybe Fox should have to learn to play MUs instead of exercising similar strats against everyone and seeing success. No matter how you cut the cake his upsmash is not fair by any means. It's such a fast option on a fast character.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Wario dair on shield is definitely not positive. Up air out of shield will work for a good number of characters as a punish.
Mr.Pickle
Smash Lord
Yeah it's not positive by any means, and its not always the best idea to do when you're above someone, with it's hitbox not being fantastic. So if you keep shielding, it's your fault you got punished. Other than that, I agree with current topic and a lot of things lunchables has said.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Alrighty, noted. I will no longer respect it on shield.
Characters are still mostly worse off being above their opponent though.
Item characters have cool options being above because bananas or bombs, but it's not always practical to summon them in that instance.
Characters are still mostly worse off being above their opponent though.
Item characters have cool options being above because bananas or bombs, but it's not always practical to summon them in that instance.
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
This is my number one complaint for PM right now actually. I fully agree with you and Oracle on this.
All dive kicks and fast downward disjoints should be looked at. Same with any move that's an escape (like up B's with no special fall or Lucario's down B (it escapes juggles and edgegaurds when canceled into an attack since you are invincible with a hitbox)). Maybe some of this stuff is fine unchanged, but it should all be looked into at least. Imo a good fix for up B's where you can attack after: make it so that you go into special fall after up B if you were hit since you left the stage (or hit off the stage). And then grabbing ledge and/or touching the ground would reset this back to being able to attack out of up B.
My other complaints are :
-Knockback growth is too low on a lot of moves, making combos work at too wide of percent ranges (plus too many moves have too little endlag/start up making most things combo into most things for some characters).
-Crouch canceling is bit too strong. It's a very interesting defensive option, but it works for too long (%-wise) and in too many situations.
-RNGesus still exists.
-Recoveries too strong (clearly being addressed).
-Too many long true combos (mix ups and option coverage combos are way more interesting).
The knockback growth and crouch canceling thing is true across the board (sans maybe melee top tiers)... the rest depends on the character, but it's definitely there.
Also buff Toon Link
I always thought a good change for characters that could attack out of their Up-B is to go into freefall if they used their 2nd jump. That way characters like M2 can still woop forward with Fairs or w/e, but cant just freely woop onto the stage with little risk if he used his 2nd jump. Snake, GnW, and Sonic would change as well. Etc. Using the up-b would take their 2nd jump like now but doesnt count as using their 2nd jump. Keeps the offensive power but tones down recovery comfort.
Only exceptions being Yoshi, ZSS, ROB, Lucario... Falcon, and Ganon of course.
idk just a thought
Only exceptions being Yoshi, ZSS, ROB, Lucario... Falcon, and Ganon of course.
idk just a thought
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so basically some characters live in a dynamic that is not 1:1 to fast-faller top tiers, and have advantages in ways differing from them as varied characters should?
the... horror?
the... horror?
Oracle
Smash Master
As usual I was right way before everyone else thank you lunchabkes for letting the people know of my godly ideas
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
The reason I don't think this fixes the problem: You haven't second jumped most of the time you are off stage or being juggled, and not going into special fall after up b in these situations is the main problem. The idea you gave is perhaps more intuitive, but I don't think it effectively deals with the problem.I always thought a good change for characters that could attack out of their Up-B is to go into freefall if they used their 2nd jump. That way characters like M2 can still woop forward with Fairs or w/e, but cant just freely woop onto the stage with little risk if he used his 2nd jump. GnW can still do his combos and still keep his DJ afterwards. Snake and Sonic would change as well. Etc. Keeps the offensive power but tones down recovery comfort.
Only exceptions being Yoshi, ZSS, ROB, Lucario, Falcon, and Ganon of course.
idk just a thought
For one, I said they should be looked at, not all changed. It might be okay for some of said moves to stay the same. For second, pretty much all the melee cast abides by this, high tier or otherwise. The closest exception I can think of is Marth Dair, which takes considerable commitment and is still less disjointed than his other aerials (cause his feet are close-ish to the tip of the swing). One of the main reasons skill level granted such long combos in Melee was a deep understanding of how you can take advantage of the opponent's worse position. Giving people an advantage from above undeniably weakens said punish games... this could be okay, but if it's to the extreme where it's better to wait and re-fight neutral then we definitely have a problem. And even before that, it's still plausibly an issue.
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- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Please explain how their desynchs have changed significantly for the worse.
It's one thing when a character like G&W has an excellent method to escape what has traditionally been a strongly disadvantaged position, but like... does MK really need to just laugh in the face of everybody when he's above them?
Case by case. Some characters could do with a weakness as simple as "I don't want to be above you."
menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
I like Marth, Roy, and Kirby in PM. My only character that I played in melee I don't like is jiggs.
my point's not that having that advantage mixed with other stuff is a balancing problem, my point is that the main argument circulating there is "having good options over someone isn't like these eight top tiers in melee, fix immediately". that is not an argument, that is the same "bcuz melee" tripe everyone takes the piss out of all the time
Oracle
Smash Master
The argument is nit 'bcuz melee', its that in smash, moves tend to send your opponents into the air; and when those opponents are strong in the air, you can actually give them positional advantage by landing an attack, which is stupid as hell. It just so happens that in melee there are no strong chara ters in the air, which is one of the reasons you see the melee tops combo the **** out of each other.
Keep in mind that you can also have characters that are selectively strong in the air, so you have more varied gameplay but without having to punish players for landing hits. Wario and d3 are examples of this; they still struggle when getting juggled but are very powerful when they get above the opponent on their own terms
Keep in mind that you can also have characters that are selectively strong in the air, so you have more varied gameplay but without having to punish players for landing hits. Wario and d3 are examples of this; they still struggle when getting juggled but are very powerful when they get above the opponent on their own terms
jtm94
Smash Lord
Whoa don't Bring GnW into this. He dies early from everything and already gets comboed like I'm using bad DI no matter which way I hold. I don't want him to not be able to recover at 40% because he ended up almost touching the blast zone from a jab.
I would almost recommend removing the hitbox on UpB, but then he becomes worse than as-is. His UpB just doesn't seem as threatening as say.... Sonic's because it gets him close enough to Uair or Snakes UpB that can combo across a larger range of %s into C4, bairs, or what have you. ROB is fine he's bad.
I would almost recommend removing the hitbox on UpB, but then he becomes worse than as-is. His UpB just doesn't seem as threatening as say.... Sonic's because it gets him close enough to Uair or Snakes UpB that can combo across a larger range of %s into C4, bairs, or what have you. ROB is fine he's bad.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Divekick moves are pretty easy to bait out - you know they're going to use them, since otherwise they're getting juggled. For example, with Marth, if I know MK's going to dair at me after an uair/utilt, I can DD to bait out the dair, shield it if needed, regrab uthrow to continue the juggle or fthrow/dthrow/bthrow mixup to maybe land a tipper/regrab. It complicates things and does put a damper on the juggle, but because it's their only option out of it it is predictable. What is a problem is quick upBs with hitboxes that can be acted out of, like Sonic's and G&W's. Sonic is the worst offender in this with his spring.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Spring shouldn't be a thing. I go off to punish Sonic and I get spring gimped and it falls straight down. It's like if Diddy launched the barrels off without being hit.
Is GnW's UpB really a problem? I'd understand it he could act fast enough and cancel the momentum, but the hitbox of UpB is the only thing that can kind of make some aerials pseudo-safe on shield. GnW is very weak while above the opponent, but I guess it could be seen as quite good when he rises through you with a hitbox rapidly. His UpB doesn't even combo with DI though so it's not like he gets free KOs off it unless you do nothing.
Is GnW's UpB really a problem? I'd understand it he could act fast enough and cancel the momentum, but the hitbox of UpB is the only thing that can kind of make some aerials pseudo-safe on shield. GnW is very weak while above the opponent, but I guess it could be seen as quite good when he rises through you with a hitbox rapidly. His UpB doesn't even combo with DI though so it's not like he gets free KOs off it unless you do nothing.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
The key is difficult to beat if you don't have a good disjoint, so G&W has a relatively safe landing depending on who he's fighting. Also, good luck DI-ing upB on reaction. It's very fast, and unless you were holding to the side prior to being hit you're going to get juggled hard after it, or you'll eat a nair/fair/style side B. It also has the Luigi nair effect - as soon as your opponent is out of hitstun, out comes a hitbox to trade and break your combo, except G&W's upB launches him away from you.
I don't think the move is completely problematic, but if the angle of knockback was lower and didn't allow autocombos unless the opponent DI'd badly instead of when he doesn't DI at all, I think it would be reasonable.
I don't think the move is completely problematic, but if the angle of knockback was lower and didn't allow autocombos unless the opponent DI'd badly instead of when he doesn't DI at all, I think it would be reasonable.
I think he means at like really high parts where your just waiting for Zelda to come down after you knock her high enough.
EDIT: Ninja'd.