Tier List Speculation

[Ogopogo]

I can't imagine Mario receiving anything significant beyond recovery nerf, Melee pill properties, and maybe Dthrow nerf. He'll be back to high tier if nothing else because he was already solid to begin with.

These are all the main things that people find overwhelming on him. He's really not that far off from Melee Doc. Lots of people would put him in top 5, though

I guess with the trend of Pits, Mewtwos and Diddys etc. in Finals Mario has kind of fallen off in perceived tier list position

 

[jtm94]

Mario is extremely good. With no projectile or wall jumps he is still amazing because his moves are good and together they are good into eachother.

 

[trash?]

pikachu is not a great character. axe's strengths is not because he picks pikachu, it's because he's axe and unless you've been living under a rock for the past several years, you'd know that axe is PRETTY GOOD AT SMASH GAMES

FWIW, axe hasn't even bothered with pikachu in PM recently, he's been playing falco more and more

 

[KayB]

pikachu is not a great character. axe's strengths is not because he picks pikachu, it's because he's axe and unless you've been living under a rock for the past several years, you'd know that axe is PRETTY GOOD AT SMASH GAMES

FWIW, axe hasn't even bothered with pikachu in PM recently, he's been playing falco more and more

He plays a healthy balance of both.

 

[Paradoxium]

pikachu is not a great character.

WROOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG

PIKACHU IS A HEALTHY CHARACTER, JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A SUPER EASY COMBO GAME OR CHEAP, SPAMMABLE PROJECTILE DOES NOT MEAN HE IS A BAD CHARACTER!!!!!!!!!!

Pikachu is still a good character in this game, he can still gimp a lot of characters, has reliable kill set ups and kill moves, a great dash dance game, has cross up shield pressure, amazing recovery, and one of the best moves in the game, quick attack.

He has all of the tools he needs to do well, that is why i believe he is solid mid tier or higher.

 

[shairn]

Paradoxium I think you have an exaggerated affection for Pikachu that's clouding your ability to recognize the fact that while Pikachu is a viable character and is by no means bad, he is not either a contender for one of the best characters in the game by far.

 

[Paradoxium]

Paradoxium I think you have an exaggerated affection for Pikachu that's clouding your ability to recognize the fact that while Pikachu is a viable character and is by no means bad, he is not either a contender for one of the best characters in the game by far.

He isn't a contender for best character in the game, because he doesn't have anything really stupid and broken. That's why i get annoyed when people want to buff pikachu. It's not a problem with pikachu, but a problem with the top tiers.

I never thought Pikachu was a contender for the best in the game (Actually I think I might have thought he was top tier at one point, but I don't think I have ever suggested that he was best in the game.), and if I ever did I certainly don't believe it anymore. Solid mid tier or higher, he has all the tools he needs.

And the only character worth my affection is Shadow

He's my little cutie <3

 

[Bleck]

So for now, it's just speculation...

somebody get this guy a medal

 

[GP&B]

I would sincerely not put Pikachu in high even. As a comparison, Lucario has far more noticeable gains for the tremendous effort required to play him well. Pikachu does not.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I agree with Paradoxium completely. IMO, he and Ike are two of the few characters in this game who are perfectly balanced. Maybe also Luigi and Roy, but definitely Ike and Pika.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Thane's list of perfectly balanced characters (not exhaustive):

a) Ike
b) Roy
c) Wario
d) Snake
e) Marth
f) Peach
g) Zero Suit Samus
h) Samus
i) Wolf
j) Zard
k) R. O. B
l) Toon Link
m) Sheik
n) Lucario
o) Ivysaur

I expect this to only be further solidified by the lower effectiveness of recoveries in 3.5. Wolf is the biggest 'standout' here, and is likely the clear best but not to a dominating degree. TKBreezy's stagelist helps the game become a bit tighter as well i.m.o. Most other characters not mentioned here need a touch up or down (Bowser and Ganon and DK up, Pit and Link and Mario down) even independent of the recovery changes that will benefit them all. DDD in particular could be pretty solid next edition but might want some better mobility anyway to solidify his rise out of low tier. Mewtwo I think is the only one that needs some serious changes.

 

[KayB]

Thane's list of perfectly balanced characters (not exhaustive):

a) Ike
b) Roy
c) Wario
d) Snake
e) Marth
f) Peach
g) Zero Suit Samus
h) Samus
i) Wolf
j) Zard
k) R. O. B
l) Toon Link
m) Sheik
n) Lucario
o) Ivysaur

I expect this to only be further solidified by the lower effectiveness of recoveries in 3.5. Wolf is the biggest 'standout' here, and is likely the clear best but not to a dominating degree. TKBreezy's stagelist helps the game become a bit tighter as well i.m.o. Most other characters not mentioned here need a touch up or down (Bowser and Ganon and DK up, Pit and Link and Mario down) even independent of the recovery changes that will benefit them all. DDD in particular could be pretty solid next edition but might want some better mobility anyway to solidify his rise out of low tier. Mewtwo I think is the only one that needs some serious changes.

But toon link is an awful character remember

 

[Vashimus]

Thane's list of perfectly balanced characters (not exhaustive):

I'm sorry, who?

 

[Mr.Random]

I think characters need to be around Marth's level of balance, where his strengths are very clear but so are his weaknesses. Like I think Marth is the most balanced character in the game (besides Dair being safe on shield in this game, that's bull****.)

 

[KayB]

Thane's list of perfectly balanced characters (not exhaustive):

a) Ike
b) Roy
c) Wario
d) Snake
e) Marth
f) Peach
g) Zero Suit Samus
h) Samus
i) Wolf
j) Zard
k) R. O. B
l) Toon Link
m) Sheik
n) Lucario
o) Ivysaur

Btw, I think Snake is definitely not perfectly balanced. No way.

 

[GP&B]

Snake and Ivy. Not with silly things like Uthrow and hit confirm -> sticky or Ivy's Up B hitbox and bair.

 

[Player -0]

Just increase Snake's BKB and decrease the KBG by a lot. Other than that I think he might be okay. C4 has fairly ridicuouls knockback when you consider you can confirm it from almost any move and stick through shields and through Tranq. It has a ton of psychological pressure and limits how the opponent can pressure in the air when it's on at certain percents. If the tranq count was increased to 5 or something but the reload was still 3 per thing that would be an interesting way to help his neutral. Since Snake can get camped by a superior projectile but is an anti approach character.

 

[jtm94]

I'm sorry, but I too believe Snake still has some balancing to go. He isn't ruining the game, but he still isn't there. C4 KOs from the ground around 110-120%. It's supposed to be a little boost to reward you for sticking them and getting them up in the air, but as it is now it's a free KO you can land guaranteed at low %s. His moves aren't ridiculous, just C4 makes his upthrow a little too good. His fair does bother me though, being that it is allll spike. His foot should just be a spike or something, I thought we were avoiding easy spike moves after Falco.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

My Character Balance Tier List​

S Tier
(Perfectly Balanced, the game should be balanced around them)

Ike is a true Smash star. Currently he is what we always wanted out of a sluggish character: Strong attacks that take a bit of planning and time to get out and even more to hit with, but when they hit they are so satisfying. He's not really as slow as one may think though, and while most moves of hit have a bit of startup, it really isn't enough to make you feel like your driving a rock. Instead, his attacks give him a large range and even larger pressure. But the thing that humbles this grand warrior is the fact this pressure never lasts for long, and you will soon end up returning to neutral, and that's where he falters.

Sure, his Quickdraw gives him amazing mixups and his aerials are great counter approach options, but they have quite large holes when you approach too hastily, and if you don't react well enough, he will end up being brushed aside most of the time. The secret to his strategy is to "meet them halfway" and be able to approach along with your opponent, basically reacting their attack and choosing an appropriate counter. All the while, you must continue to space while waiting to throw off opponents with Quickdraw mixups. His recovery is incredibly tricky to edgeguard due to it's variety of hitboxes and mixups, but is quite linear and becomes negligible at long range. Overall, he's a new Archetype we have never really seen done correctly before.

If I had to choose what should change and what shouldn't, I must say that he's very well-designed and handles like a dream. There is literally nothing about him I see worrying.

I would like to see Ike fit as a type of low-tech onstage giant, like Jigglypuff was in Melee but onstage instead of off. He seems like High Tier potential, but I believe Top-Tier just doesn't seem his style exactly.

(This is assuming Top Tier works like Project M does currently and is where the best characters are, but with an additional cost of being quite glass-cannon and very technical)​

Pikachu is a very well-balanced character who, while being very technical, is also a very well-balanced character. His recovery is very hard to learn to use effectively, but is amazing offstage, onstage and even on the ledge. Imagine him as a more balanced Fox mixed with a hint of Shiek: His pressure game is very powerful, but it has flaws that can allow opponents to get in, and while he has a very useful projectile, it is by no means broken, with nice edgeguarding capability. His Up-Smash has incredible power but IIRC, it doesn't kill nearly as early. His Thunder grants him a good Up-Smash Down-B Confirm. He even has a Ledgestall in his Headbutt and has a versitile recovery that is hard to master. He can even space nicely using his Projectile and bAir.

His balancing points are his ease of being combo'd, light weight, technical requirements and his inability to truly spam any of his attacks. (outside of his godly jab but you can easily SDI out of that) If a player can find the flaw in his offensive wall, and there is one more often than not, they can break in and retaliate. So while Pikachu has a very powerful offense and Edgegame like Fox, it is not nearly as abuseable or absurdly safe.

If I had to choose what should change and what shouldn't, there really isn't much I can say here. I can see his Up-Smash polarizing gameplay a little in that direction, but since avoiding it is a matter of skill and not luck, (If I understand it correctly) I don't think Pikachu will need many nerfs in an ideal Smash.

Where he fits in the Smash Formula is quite obvious, he should be the new face of PM. Fox was the face of Melee, MK was the face of Brawl and I'd love if good old Mr. Chu could garner his face for a second Smash. This wouldn't mean Fox would go by the wayside though, I think actually that Fox could work well as a nice co-pilot like Falco was in Melee

(Or Jiggs if you believe in 20XX)​

Shiek is a very Gimp and Edgeguard-centric with a powerful mixup in his throws. Shiek has a Projectile with amazing damage-building capabilities and a great Gimping ability, but also one that needs to be charged a bit to become truly deadly. Shiek has a great Mixup in her down-throw and back-throw which can follow up into bAirs, fAirs and Dash Attacks but in exchange her Forward and Up Throw are not really that good. Sheik loses use in both his Down and Side B outside of Recovery aid, matchup switchups and the Chain Jacket. But in exchange his Up-B is incredibly useful for mixups and it's "Shino" Ledgestall. Her Forward air is her most powerful and noteworthy aerial, but is quite hard to land outside of combos.

Her Dash attack is quite powerful and her tilts are incredibly useful for juggling fastfallers. Her Crouch Cancel handles nicely into a Down-Smash and his Forward and Up Smashes are quite useful in select situations. Shiek however is quite susceptible to juggling due to her weak dAir and relatively light weight.

If had to choose what should change and what shouldn't, I would have to say that his needles should be reverted to their Melee hitboxes due to my fear they may be unable to edgeguard as well as they used to, but overall I believe Shiek is set up quite nicely.

Sheik's spot in the Smash Formula would be quite like her Melee placement: a High/High Mid Tier offstage Gimp-master who struggles both when recovering and when being pressured but has amazing albeit short combos and traps that can easily place opponents in a corner.
​

(Will continue if this gets enough support)

​

 

[Phan7om]

Ya'll gon make me loose my mind up in here, up in here.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu is a very well-balanced character who, while being very technical, is also a very well-balanced character. His recovery is very hard to learn to use effectively, but is amazing offstage, onstage and even on the ledge. Imagine him as a more balanced Fox mixed with a hint of Shiek: His pressure game is very powerful, but it has flaws that can allow opponents to get in, and while he has a very useful projectile, it is by no means broken, with nice edgeguarding capability. His Up-Smash has incredible power but IIRC, it doesn't kill nearly as early. His QACs also grant him a nice albeit punishable OoS game and his Thunder grants him a good Up-Smash Down-B Confirm. He even has a Ledgestall in his Headbutt and has a versitile recovery that is hard to master. He can even space nicely using his Projectile and bAir.

His balancing points are his ease of being combo'd, light weight, technical requirements and his inability to truly spam any of his attacks. (outside of his godly jab but you can easily SDI out of that) If a player can find the flaw in his offensive wall, and there is one more often than not, they can break in and retaliate. So while Pikachu has a very powerful offense and Edgegame like Fox, it is not nearly as abuseable or absurdly safe.

If I had to choose what should change and what shouldn't, there really isn't much I can say here. I can see his Up-Smash polarizing gameplay a little in that direction, but since avoiding it is a matter of skill and not luck, (If I understand it correctly) I don't think Pikachu will need many nerfs in an ideal Smash.

Where he fits in the Smash Formula is quite obvious, he should be the new face of PM. Fox was the face of Melee, MK was the face of Brawl and I'd love if good old Mr. Chu could garner his face for a second Smash. This wouldn't mean Fox would go by the wayside though, I think actually that Fox could work well as a nice co-pilot like Falco was in Melee

(Or Jiggs if you believe in 20XX)​

​

QaC is a terrible oos option, just had to throw that out there.

 

[Deleted member]

imo roy/marth/sheik are pretty well designed characters. They reward spacing, pure fundamentals, and pretty much no gimmicks whatsoever. They're kind of what smash should be based around imo

(DON'T HURT ME ITS JUST AN OPINION PLS HALP)

 

[Player -0]

​

QaC is a terrible oos option, just had to throw that out there.

Situational stuff but it's still an option. Especially considering the WD out of it. In dubs it might be more useful to get away from your current opponent to swap with your partner or help him.

 

[Plum]

imo roy/marth/sheik are pretty well designed characters. They reward spacing, pure fundamentals, and pretty much no gimmicks whatsoever. They're kind of what smash should be based around imo

(DON'T HURT ME ITS JUST AN OPINION PLS HALP)

I think what's actually really cool about these three specific characters is that they essentially boil down to fundamentals, but each operate on a fairly different axis (which just shows how deep Smash is on a fundamental level). Even to look at Marth/Roy as clone characters, once you get past their very similar mobility options their playstyle begins to differ pretty rapidly.
It's like you translated a Street Fighter style of play into a Smash environment.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

imo roy/marth/sheik are pretty well designed characters. They reward spacing, pure fundamentals, and pretty much no gimmicks whatsoever. They're kind of what smash should be based around imo

(DON'T HURT ME ITS JUST AN OPINION PLS HALP)

Whist I agree for the most part, I actually think Smash is more of a game that benefits from having Gimmicy characters, just as long as they're balanced and don't completely dominate their playstyle (with a few exceptions). Good Gimmicks IMO, are QAC, Quickdraw and Armor on Bowser.

 

[Zx2963]

I think characters need to be around Marth's level of balance, where his strengths are very clear but so are his weaknesses. Like I think Marth is the most balanced character in the game (besides Dair being safe on shield in this game, that's bull****.)

If only his side b linked like brawl though. Also dair on shield is punishable if not done correctly

 

[Mr.Random]

I think Bowser is terribly designed and should be revamped imo. Again he can't be good unless they make his current moveset ridiculous (due to poor mobility, issues with camping, grab bait) or change him. He should be a fast grappler or a Zangief type of character. I think Smash 4 has something going with him. You don't have to copy Smash 4 but I think he should be designed with it in mind.

 

[NickRiddle]

Brawl- super armor.
Give him 0-100s vs. Marth and Roy.
Give him 100-0s against tether grab characters.
It would be awesome.

 

[CyberZixx]

I love Marth and Roy for the reason Lunchables said. But using a character like that can be frustrating. Playing vs a character like Lucario you are like "Please, I'm trying to play smash over here and you are trying your hardest to turn this into a 2D fighter". Shiek at least is better at dealing with such nonsense.

 

[B.W.]

We talk about this a lot at EXP, mostly because there's a lot of PMDT that go to EXP in Chicago so we non-PMDT players voice our opinions/ideas directly to them a lot.

Generally characters we think are fine as they are are
Wario
Luigi
Peach
DK
Captain Falcon
Wolf (kind of)
Falco
Sheik
T.Link (Save for some dumb recovery stuff with AGT)
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Ike
Marth
Roy
Sonic

Characters we feel are not fine are
Mario (AKA Fireball the Character)
Bowser (bad)
Diddy (needs a little adjusting)
Fox (lol)
ICs (they're so bad)
Zelda
Link (Previously known as Boomerang the Character)
Ganondorf (also kind of bad)
Mewtwo (whoopwhoopwhoopwhoop)
Jigglypuff (bad)
Squirtle (needs some adjusting)
Ivysaur (also needs a little adjusting cause B-Air is dumb and other stuff)
Samus (Very very slight adjusting)
Lucas
Ness (AKA PK Fire the Character)
Kirby (Dash Attack the Character)
Meta Knight (almost perfect)
Olimar (He needs a lot of fixing. If it weren't for Pikmin doing dumb **** all the time he'd be fine)

Anyone else isn't really talked about much.

 

[jtm94]

Pit and sonic are fine lolz. I agree with the rest kind of.

 

[kaizo13]

Pit fine lol

-recovery
-arrows
-d-throw
-glide>fair>fair>fair>fair

 

[B.W.]

Also, when I say fine, I don't just mean how strong they are. Mostly we talk about how their designs are. The characters we think are fine are well designed with how well their movesets work. Nothing is really over-centralizing with any of those characters, and they have proper balance between how they perform on stage and offstage, usually being better in one situation and not the other. Characters that live longer, often have to work for a longer time to get their kills, while characters that are easy to kill can also secure their own kill quickly. Things like that. The ideas behind the characters are fine, whether they're at their best balancing points or not.

Characters that aren't fine either have tools that overshadow the rest of the entire character or they don't have the tools to keep up.

Mario for example, right now is based heavily on spamming fireballs until you feel like approaching. It's not an unbeatable strategy, but it's pretty much his best one at all times. There's no reason to do anything differently.

Or Ness, who's entire character right now pretty much revolves around being good at landing PK Fire on something that activates it. Which is everything. Which is sad because he's capable of using other things, this is just the best thing to do in most every situation.

Or Fox who's fantastic onstage presence doesn't really matchup with his ability to survive (I don't care about "because Melee"). Or how he has tons of aggressive options that he can approach safely with while also being one of the best characters and running away and firing off projectiles to rack up damage and force an approach.

Then you have characters that are just bad and need help like Bowser, ICs, and Jigglypuff.

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel I'm the minority of this these days but hardly find Falco fine. His whole design boils down to just three exceptional and overbearing moves.

Ness is a character who needs to use PK fire because it is his one good option but once played around he is easy to beat making for a one dimensional character. Falco on the other hand is similarly simple but his tools are just so good they are not so easy to get around like PK fire.

 

[B.W.]

Falco is fine. How hard it is to move around lasers depends on the stage you let him go to and the character you choose.

His on stage presence is still very strong, but once he's offstage, even just a little, he should be losing a stock. Otherwise you ****ed up.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I feel I'm the minority of this these days but hardly find Falco fine. His whole design boils down to just three exceptional and overbearing moves.

Ness is a character who needs to use PK fire because it is his one good option but once played around he is easy to beat making for a one dimensional character. Falco on the other hand is similarly simple but his tools are just so good they are not so easy to get around like PK fire.

Let me guess...Laser, Dair, Shine? Since its his whole design, go play a decent player using only those moves. Come back, and tell me how bad you got stomped.

 

[Deleted member]

the BW list isnt bad but pit and sonic are definitely not fine. also imo link ICs and olimar are fine as is

 

[Paradoxium]

the BW list isnt bad but pit and sonic are definitely not fine. also imo link ICs and olimar are fine as is

I can't agree with Link being fine, for a while I thought he didn't need any nerfs. But then I remembered how stupid safe boomerang is, and how boomerang can combo into itself. For now I think they should just nerf the boomerang and see what happens. Because I don't believe Link whole love set is broken, but I know for a fact boomerang is.

 

[Deleted member]

boomerang is only silly vs slower floaty chars. ive had no issue vs boomerang as fox sheik ike etc but its pretty rough if youre on like peach or zelda

 

[CyberZixx]

Falco is fine. How hard it is to move around lasers depends on the stage you let him go to and the character you choose.

His on stage presence is still very strong, but once he's offstage, even just a little, he should be losing a stock. Otherwise you ****ed up.

That is true that the cast in PM deals with lasers better than melee and having a recovery that past a certain distance you just die is atypical in PM so that bites. I still think Falco is a really boring, and excellent character. I'd change him a bit but it not a case like Fox where the game needs it.