Tier List Speculation

[Zx2963]

His tipper "flub" hits were improved iirc from Melee on certain attacks.

That's why f-smash feels weak... Though still not sure if Martha is floaty as others say

 

[mimgrim]

Marth and Roy are interesting.

I think Roy has the potential to be better then Marth. He has better mobility, better combo game, and better kill game. But he gets punished so ****ing hard and it isn't Spacie level hard to get in on him.

Marth has better range, is hard to combo/punish, and will generally live longer.

For now Marth has the edge for sure simply because his metagame is more developed and more players, Roy basically only has Sethlon at this point. Still if Roy was made heavier, like Falcon weight class, and give a few more defensive tools I could easily see him surpassing Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

I think roy is better than marth, personally ofcourse. I don't think marths recovery is better, they're both really really easy to gimp.
Being able to kill with roy at 110% consistently feels SO ****ING GOOD compared to marth where you kill at 60% or 200%.

 

[1FD]

Can't find the quote.......
But a long LONG time ago, I think maybe even pre-3.0, there was some cool talk in the tier list threads or somewhere about Bowser getting earlier JC frames on grounded down B
So he could parry things kind of and jump out sooner to counter-act

The local Bowsers were talking about how it would be cool to be able to WD out of the grounded part of down B ONLY ON HIT so if you parried something with the invincibility on his Down B... like a projectile o.O
...he could WD out of it.

I've seen bamesy post about it in this thread but it was in one of his massive posts that covered like everything in the game lol
I also think it would be sexy and the locals love the idea.

Because FAST AND ACTIVE BOWSER IS FUN TO WATCH

And that would be a cool way of making ARMOR more directly purposeful to the character when he's ARMOR THEMED already

tl;dr Bowser with Yoshi parry via down b is still my dream

Also on-topic yeah Boozer still for bottom 5 even when he's beast

 

[Ogopogo]

This discussion about Roy made me remember what I thought about his recovery.

Most people base how good they think a character's recovery is on how far away you can recover from. But another important part of recovery is how easy it is getting back on stage without being edgeguarded.

Kirby can recover from very far away, but his jumps are pretty linear and his up-b is kind of predictable (the horizontal cutter makes for a good mix-up though). Marth can recover from farther away than Roy, but taking a hit from his up-b isn't that detrimental. I watched a game between Redd and M2K where Redd took maybe half his stocks by cc-ing and dsmashing.

Roy's up-b will knock you away and leave him safe if you get poked by his sword through the ground. Roy players can up-b earlier is they're sure they can catch their opponent. If a Marth player up-b's earlier, he'll more often than not take some punishment (depends on the % ofc).

The difference between Wolf and Fox's up-b's are similar, except Fox's is painfully better :x

 

[mimgrim]

Roy needs less landing lag for his recovery.

Anyways. I still want Bowser to stay as an anti-approach character while getting a projectile to help with this kind of playstyle and getting more of a focus on grabbing and Koopa Klaw.

The Koopa King is already so much to play as, but he could be so much funner and so much cooler while being so much better. Do it PMBR. Please?

 

[Deleted member]

*sigh* I hate hearing "roy needs less langing lag for his recovery". THATS NOT THE ISSUE!

Roys recovery is insanely easy to gimp purely because of the little distance it gets. You can edgehog him super easily (Watch both of my sets vs. Sethlon from collected and you'll see how ****ing free it is to edgehog him) or you can just trade a move with his up b so he can't even reach the ledge. If you gave roy 0 landing lag from his up b his recovery would still be bad.

 

[mimgrim]

If he had 0 landing lag on the recovery he wouldn't need to risk being edgehogged, as he could go for landing on the stage instead for going to sweetspot the ledge, because now he doesn't need to worry about getting punished for landing on the stage with his recover, at least not as bad.

Would help a lot imo.

 

[Deleted member]

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE 0 LANDING LAG IF YOU CAN'T LAND ON THE STAGE

He can't land on the stage if he's too far away >_____> His up b doesn't go far enough to get back onstage most of the time because people can hit him off and trade with his up b.

 

[1FD]

post

The Ogopogo is a sea monster that lives in the okanagan lake where I live
Water Ridley confirmed

 

[Ogopogo]

I cannot believe I never googled my own tag

 

[shairn]

Yeah landing lag on both Marth's and Roy's recoveries is moot because realistically they don't get to recover on stage very often. Especially for Roy, because of the shorter range and faster falling speed. I wish I could airdodge out of upB, it could make interesting mixups.

 

[Spralwers]

Marth's mobility is definitely better than Roy's. Roy falls faster, but that hurts both his recovery and his ability to escape combos. Marth still has a longer wavedash and faster dash/run speed.

 

[1FD]

Roy gives no ****s because he has a pivot ftilt and dtilt that knock people down into techchase fsmash kills at 0% all day
Get around that crap with your dd/cc grab attempts I DARE YA MARTHYGAL

 

[Ace55]

Yeah landing lag on both Marth's and Roy's recoveries is moot because realistically they don't get to recover on stage very often. Especially for Roy, because of the shorter range and faster falling speed. I wish I could airdodge out of upB, it could make interesting mixups.

Landing lag on their UpB's is not moot lol. Falcon for instance would be mighty upset if you removed it. Forcing Marth to recover on stage has always been an efficient way to edgegaurd him.

I'm not sure how you envision airdodging out of upB.

 

[shairn]

Landing lag on their UpB's is not moot lol. Falcon for instance would be mighty upset if you removed it. Forcing Marth to recover on stage has always been an efficient way to edgegaurd him.

I'm not sure how you envision airdodging out of upB.

Looking back, I can't quite remember why I wrote that, my apologies. Late night Johns.

By Airdodge out of upB, what I mean is that you could potentially upB as if you were to sweetspot, but while the opponent edgehogs you you airdodge onto the stage. Obviously that's extra jank and most probably broken(Reverse upB waveland? lol.) but I can dream.

 

[jtm94]

Why do some character like Peach and DK have extremely low landing lag on their UpBs? I hate it more than anything when I actually expect lag, but they act instantaneously, Peach in specific, as if she doesn't have good recovery.

 

[shairn]

Probably because they're extra slow and you can see where they're going from a mile away, plus you can easily hit them out of their recovery so it's not like you need to wait for them to land or anything.

 

[TreK]

DK's recovery doesn't need landing lag to be edgeguarded 9 times out of 10. Which is a shame if you ask me because to me it kinda kills the whole point of being an heavy weight, which is "being a tank that never dies".
Peach's recovery is a bit better but then again, Fox doesn't lag either, so the answer is most likely "because melee".

 

[Ace55]

Why do some character like Peach and DK have extremely low landing lag on their UpBs? I hate it more than anything when I actually expect lag, but they act instantaneously, Peach in specific, as if she doesn't have good recovery.

For DK and Boozer it's because you can see their recovery coming from a mile away, also bcuz melee.

For Peach just bcuz melee, although in PM her recovery is pretty reasonable compared to some others.

By Airdodge out of upB, what I mean is that you could potentially upB as if you were to sweetspot, but while the opponent edgehogs you you airdodge onto the stage. Obviously that's extra jank and most probably broken(Reverse upB waveland? lol.) but I can dream.

That actually might be fine if you could only airdodge upwards. I don't like the idea of Roy wavelanding out of that high priority upB.

In general I like giving characters multiple recovery options. I'd just prefer most of those options to be ****ty so the edgegaurded has to trick the edgegaurder, as opposed to the edgegaurder having to be psychic.

 

[Rᴏb]

Do you guys think they're gonna buff DK's recovery again?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Do you guys think they're gonna buff DK's recovery again?

Better not

 

[Rᴏb]

Better not

That's how I feel.

 

[Strong Badam]

Do you guys think they're gonna buff DK's recovery again?

It lost horizontal distance... Wasn't an objective buff. Better against some characters and worse against others.

 

[Rᴏb]

It lost horizontal distance... Wasn't an objective buff. Better against some characters and worse against others.

I'd say the vertical distance DK gains when recovering is much more valuable compared to the horizontal distance. I mean, isn't that why he got the buff in the first place?

 

[Strong Badam]

Except it's not a "buff," just a change that makes his recovery less extreme. Some characters who couldn't edgeguard it before have an easier time, and some who edgeguarded it for free have to have a little more precision to do so.

 

[Deleted member]

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU HAVE 0 LANDING LAG IF YOU CAN'T LAND ON THE STAGE
He can't land on the stage if he's too far away >_____> His up b doesn't go far enough to get back onstage most of the time because people can hit him off and trade with his up b.

you can solve all that by giving him less landing lag tho

tell me about the aneurysm you're about to have when you make it to rehab

 

[Rᴏb]

There were characters that couldn't edgeguard DK?
... So do you think the vertical distance DK's upb now gives him is more valuable than the horizontal distance it used to give him? If not, I'd really like to know why. I obviously think it does, which is why I keep referring to it as a buff.

I don't buy that it is an even trade off, if that's what you keep implying.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I don't know why everybody is all caught up in whether it was a buff or not. DK's recovery is still pretty damn easy to edgeguard.

 

[Mera Mera]

There were characters that couldn't edgeguard DK?
... So do you think the vertical distance DK's upb now gives him is more valuable than the horizontal distance it used to give him? If not, I'd really like to know why. I obviously think it does, which is why I keep referring to it as a buff.

I don't buy that it is an even trade off, if that's what you keep implying.

While I agree that it's probably a net plus for DK, why does it matter? It was a polarizing recovery in that he got screwed by meteors cause when you have no vertical recovery being able the meteor cancel doesn't mean much. He's still weak to meteors moreso than others, it's just slightly less extreme.

Also, it's not like DK is the best in the game. He's probably not even above the 50% mark of the cast. He's strong in some matchups but he gets shut down by some of the stronger projectiles from what I can tell. He's also still super easy to edgeguard, so the "buff" to his recovery only did so much for him.

 

[1FD]

Gdubz having 2 double jumps is kind of canon but I guess Up B and acting/jumping out of it is basically the same thing.

Peach has a brella trickball and her recovery is really complex/brings lots to matchups with her. DK... not so much.

 

[Rᴏb]

While I agree that it's probably a net plus for DK, why does it matter?

I just don't want the PMBR to use the excuse "it's technically not a buff" as a cop out (which I've seen before) if they happen to buff DK's recovery again. That's all.

Also, it's not like DK is the best in the game. He's probably not even above the 50% mark of the cast. He's strong in some matchups but he gets shut down by some of the stronger projectiles from what I can tell. He's also still super easy to edgeguard, so the "buff" to his recovery only did so much for him.

I'm fine with the buff, it was definitely needed and makes playing as DK more enjoyable. Same goes for Captain Falcon and his recovery. Even though their recoveries still suck, that's okay. If DK needs to be buffed, I'd rather his strengths get stronger than his weaknesses disappear at this point.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I just don't want the PMBR to use the excuse "it's technically not a buff" as a cop out (which I've seen before) if they happen to buff DK's recovery again. That's all.
I'm fine with the buff, it was definitely needed and makes playing as DK more enjoyable. Even though his recovery still sucks, that's okay. If DK needs to be buffed, I'd rather his strengths get stronger rather than his weaknesses disappear at this point.

I liked his vertical buff too, though I always wondered why he couldn't have sort of a mash B to gain height thing added to his previous recovery instead. Maybe it would have made his recovery too good (Doubt it, considering how easy he is to edgeguard), but it was always something that came to mind for me.

 

[Deleted member]

you can solve all that by giving him less landing lag tho

This is where I'd really like a Kappa emote. Can't tell if trolling or srs.

 

[jtm94]

DK got hit by the buff stick pretty hard. The only reason he doesn't good is because he's Mario, but lacks recovery, a projectile, and is combo bait. I would put him fairly high compared to the rest of the cast.

I would put Peach's recovery at one of the best in the game easily. For the distance and how easy it is to execute it is amazing. I also hate the umbrella, but that's just me.

 

[1FD]

I also hate the umbrella, but that's just me.

love-hate
baby
love-hate

brellasexy

 

[Frost | Odds]

You must have some very big stones to main Roy in tourney.

Compliment accepted. You may buy me dinner, but I'm not yet committed to putting out.

Roy's recovery is total garbage, but the black costume makes him go faster so who cares

 

[Zx2963]

I honestly think that when the meta game evolves Roy > Marth

 

[Frost | Odds]

Maybe if Roy could aim his up-B anywhere like a way manlier Fox

 

[Soft Serve]

Maybe if Roy could aim his up-B anywhere like a way manlier Fox

He already has 3 different angles for hit up-b, he doesn't need more.