Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

I am not quite sure what the pmbr will do with buffing Ice Climbers. Programming nana is stupid and they can either give them infinites or... what, exactly? Honestly I don't blame the pmbr for how the current ICs are because it seems like it'd be hard to know what to do with them

 

[Life]

I am not quite sure what the pmbr will do with buffing Ice Climbers. Programming nana is stupid and they can either give them infinites or... what, exactly? Honestly I don't blame the pmbr for how the current ICs are because it seems like it'd be hard to know what to do with them

Hm, if only someone had some ideas.

Here's an idea, if it's even possible to implement.

1. Give ICs their handoffs back.

2. Make it so that mashing out of Ice Climber grabs takes slightly longer, but for each consecutive grab the timer does not (fully) reset, so mashing will eventually break you out if ICs attempt to simply do a Brawl-style zero-to-death handoff.

3. Make it easy to SDI the moves they usually use to do non-handoff chaingrabs (e.g. fair) so that the player on the receiving end can try to throw off the ICs player during the fancy parts.

4. Rebalance accordingly.

This does a handful of things: it gives counterplay to the grab infinites while still making grab combos scary and tense; it decreases the importance of grab combos in the early percents, which is when they'd be most impactful as infinites (nobody cares if they're already at 200% when their opponent starts an infinite); it forces the ICs player to make decisions while executing a grab combo; and aesthetically, it combines the brutal, metronome-like quality of Brawl's handoffs with the more ornate Melee-style combos.

(A post which was completely ignored in favor of yet another Fox discussion.)

 

[didds]

IC's are good, trust me, I almost wrote a guide once.
Yoshi's trash the IC's, it seriously might be the IC's worst MU alongside Fox and what have you.
I'd argue about the Squirtle MU, but I can't say I've ever seen that match played out so I really don't know.

Speaking of which, life, how does everyone feel about fox

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Advantage against:
Bowser, Charizard, Donkey Kong, Ike, Dedede, Kirby (hard to counter camping but you needn't get in a disadvantage), Lucario, Luigi, Squirtle.
Many even MUs.
A bit more disadvantegous.

And that is estimated in regards to the current metagame if applied perfectly by both sides and ICs are currently evolving faster than most other characters. IMO they are mid tier...

Since pit and a few other characters are all about grabs, and ICs don't get grabbed...could that be even?
I don't really agree with that list of life's..

 

[shairn]

I don't think we should be giving ICs handoffs or wobbling again. As it is, they already have an advantage over others when grabbing - More pummels, guaranteed smash out of throw and can hit each other out of an opponent's grab. Nana's consistent uthrow also allows for a similarly consistent follow-up by popo. Overall, I think a better way to help them is a better projectile and better normals. It'd make them much more consistent.

 

[didds]

Shine and Falco lasers, insta top tier.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Wait... ICs do have their handoffs. Its just harder

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Well, Pit can space sh fairs still and his arrows are really annoying so its probably even

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't think we should be giving ICs handoffs or wobbling again. As it is, they already have an advantage over others when grabbing - More pummels, guaranteed smash out of throw and can hit each other out of an opponent's grab. Nana's consistent uthrow....

Hold on big guy, lemme stop you right there. you can actually control the direction of which nana throws in this game.

 

[shairn]

Hold on big guy, lemme stop you right there. you can actually control the direction of which nana throws in this game.

I was under the impression the direction she throws depended on her stage position?
Well, that's peculiar. Thanks for correcting me on that.

 

[Ogopogo]

I was under the impression the direction she throws depended on her stage position?

I was under the same impression. That's why their infinite only works at a certain spot, right?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

No, you have to input very precise before the autoinput up-throw comes out and you can throw whereever you want

 

[Plum]

IIRC you have exactly one frame to input a throw with Nana before she just does an Uthrow.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

In theory you can also pummel but the frame window is the same

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yea, you can pummel. IC are just a lot harder now. At least no one has to worry about their scrublord friend picking the character up, playing for a few days, and just handing off your body till they get bored.

 

[Phan7om]

inb4 everyone thinks ICs are broken now

 

[Bazkip]

nerf ics plz

also nerf tink so I can taste @Lunchables tears

 

[Deleted member]

Toonlink, if he were to be nerfed, would only get very minor changes.

HE'S ALREADY BOTTOM 5 YOU CAN'T NERF HIM ANY HARDER!!!111

 

[mimgrim]

Nerfs here nerfs there nerfs everywhere.

EIEIO.

This thread should the subtitle of "Which character should be nerfed?"

Can't we start with buffing the characters that need it first. Then see if anyone needs nerfs after that?

No?

Okay bye...~

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser desperately needs buffs, yes, but PMBR's casually shrugged off every suggestion made

I'm assuming that next patch he'll be even slower, bigger, have more armor, still no projectile or approach options; and this'll get called a 'buff'

If flame breath was literally 3x its current size, he'd still be bottom 5 or 10

 

[mimgrim]

Honestly, Bowser doesn't need approach options as long as he can force approaches on every character. The best way to do that is to give him a projectile that can actually force approaches, especially against those with projectiles. He's meant to be more of anti-approach character, so freaking get him to force approaches.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Toonlink, if he were to be nerfed, would only get very minor changes.

HE'S ALREADY BOTTOM 5 YOU CAN'T NERF HIM ANY HARDER!!!111

We could do something special here...The bottom 5 could become the secret top 5. It could be a thing.

Spoiler

[URL=http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/Anthony_Judge/media/E07C10E2-1D2C-466B-8F9C-CCD85377C8CB_zpshjclngl5.png.html]

[/URL]

 

[DMG]

I wholly support giving Bowser a projectile if that meant he wasn't cheese mcnacho with armor. His MU's are not very fun to look at or play as from both sides usually. He's a masochist, counter attacking lump of spikes and filth: don't you dare slap a projectile on that thing as he is right now

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I wholly support giving Bowser a projectile if that meant he wasn't cheese mcnacho with armor. His MU's are not very fun to look at or play as from both sides usually. He's a masochist, counter attacking lump of spikes and filth

Blue shells plz

 

[trash?]

I remember the PMBR scrapping an idea for bowser to have a big ol fireball for his neutralb, similar to the one he spouts out in the recent mario games, because it "didn't fit his style"

dearest friends: we don't like bowser's style. please bring the fireball back

 

[mimgrim]

Bowser's armor isn't even that important to him in the long run. The armor frames are such a small window that they are only really useful for when your opponent is playing precitably or for on-stage edge-guarding. But when you look at top level play, you don't see Bowser players like Jamie really relying on it, because it really isn't that reliable and is at worst a minor annoyance to the opponent. The only way to make them reliable to make the armor last longer, but I am sure that will not go well with people.

I would gladly give up armor frames for a good projectile on Bowser.

 

[trash?]

he'd be like a gouken-style of character in PM, big body dude with a focus on hardcore projectiles and heavy jump-in punishes

that actually sounds incredibly rad now that I think of it like that. I want that really hard

 

[DMG]

Jumping in is already usually **** in PM/Melee though. Just gonna lead to people grabbing him, aka Plan A to bypass anything Bowser ever wanted to jank around

 

[mimgrim]

I also like the ideas about giving Koopa Klaw more options, like an up, forward, and down variant along with his current neutral and back variant and have it do something unique if you catch someone in the air, to make him more of a grapple as well.

There's alotta cool things you can do with the Koopa King.

 

[shairn]

Make Koopa Klaw super armor all the way through

Bowser meta now about jumping in and klawing the **** out of others

 

[DMG]

If I gave Bowser a projectile, I would have him throw various appetizers at the opponent. Omega Kappa Crab Cakes would be one of them

 

[trash?]

Jumping in is already usually **** in PM/Melee though. Just gonna lead to people grabbing him, aka Plan A to bypass anything Bowser ever wanted to jank around

I'm aight with that, if he's doing a projectile heavy game he should be focusing on getting grabbed, that'd be his balance. maybe change moves like his uair to be less armor-friendly, more "screw your aerial approach" friendly?

this is all silly wishlisting but it sounds fun to me

 

[DMG]

Why would he need a better Uair when he already has Upb for 90% of approaches? Basically instant, doesn't need to be airborne for it, works OOS. He already kind of fits your description, sans the projectile, with combinations of armor and Upb. Making him more inclined in that area as a trade off for armor would probably be a nerf. He doesn't need help in stuffing any harder than he already does: you trying to make Fluffy Turtle Zelda over there or what?

Projectile > armor, but more stuffy stuff stuff potential < armor he has atm. If you want to make a character based on that, you'd probably look to remove or tone down Upb before anything else, because it tends to outshine any other thought when the phrase "Stuffed" enters a dude's mind.

Ideally, Bowser wouldn't have a projectile or armor. He would have 1 frame less on jump squat, faster fall speed or air mobility, smoother wavedashing (what a lump of junk he is LOL), etc. In this kind of crazy game though, idk how you balance Bowser without attempting something like armor or keeping Upb as good as it is. Gotta accept the Bowser annoyance in our lives so that he doesn't auto lose to any top tier

 

[mimgrim]

Whirling Fortress is a bad approach option rofl.

It's pretty punishable if the opponent knows what the **** they're doing. You want to use it as a reactionary thing instead, like for OoS. It's a defensive tool, not an offensive one.

 

[DMG]

Um, yes we know that? He's talking about stuffing people and walling them out. I'm specifically and ONLY talking about using Fortress in those cases and why it makes ideas like buffed anti-air aerials near obsolete if you're trying to take Bowser in the "Stuff 'em like a Thanksgiving Turkey" route. Nerf Upb's capabilities, and suddenly sick Fair/Uair/etc ideas make sense.

 

[mimgrim]

I misread your post the first time. Sorry. >_>

 

[DMG]

If I were Bowser, I would *insert any directional Special move* all over your life

 

[Frost | Odds]

His uair is already gahlike.

Just need projectile, and/or bigger/better/faster flame breath

I'm just gonna keep linking my thoughts on this
http://smashboards.com/threads/king-koopas-new-digs-3-0-edition.343621/page-8#post-16444942

 

[DrinkingFood]

What if fox's usmash had a first weak hit that allowed you to SDI out like his upair
The weak hit would have the timing of the current hitbox and the strong hit would be 3-4 frames later
Yay/nay
It wouldn't be a straight nerf if you kept the same total duration, it'd be a couple frames better on shield
But It'd serve to make the move harder to kill with without actually reducing its power

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That would be a straight nerf. With the SDi on uair, fox can at least do his uair higher or drift with you to challenge your SDi. With the nerf you're implying, you get out for free and there is nothing fox can do about it.

 

[trash?]

unless you can perfectly SDI on reaction, it actually wouldn't be the biggest nerf, but it's a nerf assuming you read the usmash, which is perfectly fine