Tier List Speculation

[GP&B]

Well, it worked for a while.

 

[DMG]

Let's let Ike sing Karaoke and drink champagne. The purpose? Who in the bloody hell knows

 

[Saproling]

Ike would like Mikes hard lemonade.

 

[DontHate-]

So I haven't been on this thread in months. Last time I was here, I was giving reasons for why Falco was not the second best character in the game (at the time Fox was #1 and Falco #2 in most people's list). Is it still the same now? Anyone care to update me with a list of at least the top 5 or top 10 (does not have to be in any order)?

Also, at the time, link an Lucus were characters that some wanted to nerf if I recall correctly. Is this also still true?

Lastly, are there any characters considered broken in the game?

Thanks!

 

[DrinkingFood]

No broken characters, only broken moves that really centralize their respective characters around that move
There's no real consensus on who top 5 or top 10 are, I figure most would include both fox and falco in there somewhere, but asking for a general opinion is asking for someone to vehemently disagree with you

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

Lastly, are there any characters considered broken in the game?

I don't think there are any characters that deserve their own tier but Mewtwo is getting there in my opinion.

I feel like his moveset is too feature rich.

For Example:
Teleport (Extreme recovery options. Hover NAir counterplay is too difficult framewise? Acts differently than all other teleports in the game.)
Tail (Disjointed hitbox, wide option covering with UpTilt)
Shadow Ball (Period of Sin wave not long enough? Not too strong per se but adds a lot to the feature set.)
Backwards Grab (on Dash Grab hitbox I think. Very minor inconsistency)

Maybe I'm just a bad and salty Wario player whos stuck in a bad matchup. I just want to see what other people think.

No broken characters, only broken moves that really centralize their respective characters around that move.

I feel like DrinkingFood is spot on in the general case. Mewtwo in my opinion just has multiple broken moves.

 

[jtm94]

So for a character specific question, where do people place Sonic?

I usually see him somewhere near the center, but that is the area of least certainty. My training partner plays Sonic and he doesn't do anything flashy or high in tech skill, but the character is so incredibly fast while maintaining a hitbox that he has to be good right? I watched a set of Colbol vs Wizzrobe and Colbol held his own until he went Fox and then.... I saw the most disgusting things that Sonic can do to spacies.... That alone isn't me saying wow he is top tier, just beating a few characters in a good MU doesn't mean anything, but I would figure he can still do similar things to other characters which begins to seem unfair.

I also don't like homing attack. I get the spirit of Sonic and all, but moves that require a single button press to recover, extend combos, and gimp shouldn't be in the game.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I ****ing hate Sonic. I've never even played against one in tournament, but I just hate looking at that ******'s stupid face and listening to his ****ing god awful catchphrases and hearing that goddamn stupid ass spinning noise he makes for 90% of his goddamn moves. **** Sonic.

That said, I think he's top 15

 

[didds]

Sonic really is kind of a jerk. He calls me too slow, but I'm moving as fast as my character let's me

It's like, lay off Sonic, I'm trying to get to class

 

[DMG]

Sonic can time people out on bigger stages. Fear his smelly blue piggy feet as he wins

 

[Paradoxium]

So for a character specific question, where do people place Sonic?

I usually see him somewhere near the center, but that is the area of least certainty. My training partner plays Sonic and he doesn't do anything flashy or high in tech skill, but the character is so incredibly fast while maintaining a hitbox that he has to be good right? I watched a set of Colbol vs Wizzrobe and Colbol held his own until he went Fox and then.... I saw the most disgusting things that Sonic can do to spacies.... That alone isn't me saying wow he is top tier, just beating a few characters in a good MU doesn't mean anything, but I would figure he can still do similar things to other characters which begins to seem unfair.

I also don't like homing attack. I get the spirit of Sonic and all, but moves that require a single button press to recover, extend combos, and gimp shouldn't be in the game.

I put Sonic at top tier, I think that blue ****** is broken. He has the dumbest combo, spindash off the ledge into fair, its instant death. And another thing is his uair. Sonic can actually get you no matter how high you go, he can also consistently chain his uairs together. And then there is spin dash, i don't really need to go into detail about this one. He doesn't even seem like a smash character, he seems like a complete mess.

 

[DontHate-]

No broken characters, only broken moves that really centralize their respective characters around that move
There's no real consensus on who top 5 or top 10 are, I figure most would include both fox and falco in there somewhere, but asking for a general opinion is asking for someone to vehemently disagree with you

So there aren't any lists that a good portion of people agree with? I looked a few pages back and saw this results based list. Can this possibly reflect an actual tier list in any way?

A Tier: >6000 Points
1. 10,679.26 Points, 67 Top 8 Placements, Most Top 8
Appearances
2. 7708 Points, 23 Top 8 Placements
3. 7639.6 Points, 32 Top 8 Placements
4. 7099.33 Points, 17 Top 8 Placements
5. /6558.14 Points, 20 Top 8 Placements for Lucas, but 59 for Marth, second only to Fox.
7. 6099.7 Points, 44 Top 8 Placements

B Tier: 6000>x>3000
8. 5821.21 Points, 39 Top 8 Placements
9. 5754.76 Points, 36 Top 8 Placements
10. 5669 Points, 30 Top 8 Placements
11. 4878.94 Points, 35 Top 8 Placements
12. 4442.83 Points, 39 Top 8 Placements
13. 4435.93 Points, 38 Top 8 Placements
14. 3900 Points, 21 Top 8 Placements
15. 3729.77 Points, 30 Top 8 Placements
16. 3683.83 Points, 26 Top 8 Placements
17. 3445.67 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements
18. 3371.57 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements
19. 3145.1 Points, 15 Top 8 Placements
20. 3107.5 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements

C Tier: 3000>x>1000
21. 2958.5 Points, 13 Top 8 Placements
22. 2666.93 Points, 16 Top 8 Placements
23. 2550.5 Points, 18 Top 8 Placements
24. 2484.66 Points, 25 Top 8 Placements
25. 2268.56 Points, 17 Top 8 Placements
26. 2034 Points, 16 Top 8 Placements
27. 1782.83 Points, 19 Top 8 Placements
28. 1630.2 Points, 12 Top 8 Placements
29. 1482.5 Points, 8 Top 8 Placements
30. 1312.33 Points, 15 Top 8 Placements
31. 1261.5 Points, 10 Top 8 Placements
32. 1235 Points, 11 Top 8 Placements
33. 1146.8 Points, 8 Top 8 Placements
34. 1004.5 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements

D Tier: <1000
35. 888.56 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
36. 821.5 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
37. 737.9 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
38. 669.5 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements
39. 472 Points, 3 Top 8 Placements
40. 437 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements
41 119 Points, 1! Top 8 Placements

 

[Anonistry]

Sonic is top tier annoying to deal with. Anything past that is just superfluous for the fact that "SONIC'S TEH NAEM" and "YOUR TOO SLOW"...

(It doesn't help one of my friends is "that guy" when playing Sonic. Does nothing but homing ball and jumps everywhere...)

 

[EclipseKirby]

So there aren't any lists that a good portion of people agree with? I looked a few pages back and saw this results based list. Can this possibly reflect an actual tier list in any way?

The problem with a results based tier list alone is that they are some combination of viability and popularity where in a tier list wants to isolate viability. Also relevant, a results tier list may track a player's success more than the actual character. You can see a lot of this is in that results list, where much of the A tier has at least one highly talented player associated with that character.

if you're looking for an idea of what a lot of people think, Ali Baba 177 has a community opinion tier list and one that combines community opinion and results.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ali Baba's lists are all awful because they give everyone's opinion equal weight.

 

[Kati]

Yeah I feel like many players simply can't fill out a tier list survey (myself included), as there are soooo many match ups that it is unlikely that they have enough experience in all of them.

 

[Ripple]

this is why people should ask top level players of each character about who they play the most often in tournament and make a MU ratio off that and not comment on something they hardly have experience with.

so like, I shouldn't comment on DDD vs. roy at all.
but I could do DDD vs. ZSS

 

[Seagull Joe]

F . He's the most annoying character to fight lol.

this is why people should ask top level players of each character about who they play the most often in tournament and make a MU ratio off that and not comment on something they hardly have experience with.

so like, I should comment of DDD vs. roy at all.
but I could do DDD vs. ZSS

Pretty much.

 

[jtm94]

Hmm. I am surprised at how poorly Sonic has been accepted into the game. I thought maybe it was just my friends and I.
Spindash seems a little good. And the sad thing is his tilts and jabs and stuff are actually pretty good standalone, but his spindash is so centralizing that you never see his actual moves.

There was a REALLY good tier list(aka my opinion of it) that averaged opinion with tournament results and it made what seemed super accurate to me.

 

[KhanYe]

I'd assume Marth has a good matchup with Sonic. Maybe Link, Mario and Roy as well. Anyone else?

 

[jtm94]

I'd assume Marth has a good matchup with Sonic. Maybe Link, Mario and Roy as well. Anyone else?

Ike, perhaps TL, Meta Knight is a maybe.. ZSS?

 

[Saproling]

Ike, perhaps TL, Meta Knight is a maybe.. ZSS?

ZSS doesn't win matchups you silly goose.

 

[C_Mill24]

ZSS doesn't win matchups you silly goose.

But wouldn't Sonic have a hard time approaching as he doesn't really have a way to deal with disjointed hit boxes?

 

[Axrz]

But wouldn't Sonic have a hard time approaching as he doesn't really have a way to deal with disjointed hit boxes?

ZSS doesn't have any long lasting hitboxes making it difficult for her to deal with spindash, and blaster doesn't go far enough/isn't fast enough to really mitigate his movement.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Sonic is fast, that's something we know. But did you know, he has crappy priority? Just throw out hitboxes. Win. Getting baited? Use projectiles.

 

[Saproling]

But wouldn't Sonic have a hard time approaching as he doesn't really have a way to deal with disjointed hit boxes?

I was being sarcastic but no Sonic shouldn't have issues with her. Large bodied characters can have some trouble with her but thats all I can really see from it.

 

[DMG]

Sonic is fast, that's something we know. But did you know, he has crappy priority? Just throw out hitboxes. Win. Getting baited? Use projectiles.

Not every character can afford to throw out hitboxes willy nilly though. In practice, patient Sonic gameplay can bait those actions and punish from a decent distance away. Bad priority/range is a much worse problem on slower characters.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I'd assume Marth has a good matchup with Sonic. Maybe Link, Mario and Roy as well. Anyone else?

I hate Link v Sonic

He can run circles around your projectiles.

 

[jtm94]

fast characters beat projectiles easily, Which is why Captain Falcon can do work against Mario because he can run through fireballs.

Sonic can punish from miles away.

 

[Hylian]

Link is great against sonic. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know the match-up very well.

 

[KhanYe]

Link is great against sonic. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't know the match-up very well.

also hyli i'd love it if you checked out my culario footage and gave me some feedback tyty <3

 

[didds]

Yoshi ain't bad again Sonic, Pivot grab is just amazing against the blue ball.

DJ ruins a couple of sonic's go to kills, mainly the uairs and spin dash > fair gimp.

 

[KhanYe]

Lasting hitboxes are super useful against Sonic. I'd imagine Luigi's nair, Mario's nair, Charizard's nair, Metaknight's nair, Mario's nair, basically anyone with a lasting hitbox takes Sonic out of spindash. Also, Mario's CC dsmash also eats Sonic. I'd imagine Yoshi wouldn't have too rough of a time with Sonic.

Personally, as a Lucario player, I hate playing Sonic. Lucario has super limited OoS options and a small ass shield, so he can't really handle the pressure well. Best thing you can do is fair, but even so, I'd say the matchup absolutely favors Sonic.

 

[DMG]

fast characters beat projectiles easily, Which is why Captain Falcon can do work against Mario because he can run through fireballs.

Sonic can punish from miles away.

*Old Mario

New Mario doesn't mess around with Fireballs. Eating through them with Nairs, or going above/past them is less lethal. Scumbag buffs!

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I know some of you peeps hate my 'tier' list methods but its the best I can do with being a non respected player as I can't get to many tournaments (in addition to not being recognizable,,,) But MU charts have been brought up a few times but they are pretty unfeasible right now, especially on this page. On the other hand tier list are easier to speculate, and fun to make.
And people dont like other peoples opinions so giving more weight to certain people is difficult. However I do understand what youre saying and I have givin extra weight to certain peoples opinions that received acceptance when they posted their opinionated tier list (the only person I can recall right now was strongbads).
The way I try to see it is that for uneducated people about certain characters there are also uneducated people about the other characters so it ends up evening out and the list results in the placings of most 'agreed' upon.
If you guys have any persons opinions that you feel should be more highly valued I will definetly take that into account. However we all saw what happened to the CT opinions, Ill just see what everyone comments about

For those of you who are interested in the data I collected my signature has a tier list that I made combining peoples opinions and tournament results and a few other things fed by the community, if you want to know more I can certainly give you details. (I do this for fun and to keep track statistically of how peoples opinions and results change over time in en ever changing game(general once a month))

 

[thatoneguy1]

is it just me or does toon link feel like the most under powered character in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

Toonlink is trash buff my character make my bombs mega bombs from four swords

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

is it just me or does toon link feel like the most under powered character in the game?

It's just you.

 

[Deleted member]

NO ITS ME TOO DON'T WORRY THATONEGUY1 WE FEEL THE SAME

 

[Saproling]

Nah let fire arrows stay out as long as Zeldas fire's.