Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

Can we change this thread back to tier list speculation, rather than who needs to be buffed?

Those two topics are extremely closely related, in fact I would say the only reason the tier list really matters is so we can find out who needs buffs.

 

[Axrz]

Those two topics are extremely closely related, in fact I would say the only reason the tier list really matters is so we can find out who needs buffs.

No. A tier list is to look at how the metagame has developed as of 3.02. The tier list is supposed to treat 3.02 as if it is the final release of the game. Are you saying that we have a tier list for melee for the sole purpose to see who needs buffs?

 

[Strong Badam]

If there's one place we don't look to determine who needs buffs/nerfs, it's this thread.

 

[onlywonderboy]

Well we know Melee isn't gonna change so it's not quite the same

There are certainly a lot of people talking about nerfs and buffs, but these still contribute to the discussion as it highlights a character's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Lucas is top tier.

Period.

His DJC is nasty, making for arguably one of the best Aerial Skill-sets to date.

All I have to say is that his charged up-smash has so much knock back and such a large hitbox that if you gave it to a syrup-stained iHop napkin, that napkin might as well be top tier.

 

[Hashtag]

Lucas is top tier.

Period.

His DJC is nasty, making for arguably one of the best Aerial Skill-sets to date.

All I have to say is that his charged up-smash has so much knock back and such a large hitbox that if you gave it to a syrup-stained iHop napkin, that napkin might as well be top tier.

This is brilliant, I'm also inclined to agree.

 

[mimgrim]

Who is better, Yoshi or ROB?

AMSA

Wait. Wrong game.

 

[Luigimanski64]

If there's one place we don't look to determine who needs buffs/nerfs, it's this thread.

Why does this thread exist then

 

[Paradoxium]

Why does this thread exist then

To complain about which characters need buffs/nerfs

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why does this thread exist then

Because people like making lists

 

[mimgrim]

Why does this thread exist then

Because a person made the topic.

You see, one day this person was going "Lalalalala, rainbows!" but then something happened... They thought! I know, shocking isn't it? A person thinking, it is indeed a scary thought. Anyway this thought that crossed into their minds was something along the lines of "Hrmmm I wonder how this game's tier list will eventually turn out." Of course this person should have accounted for the fact that this is the internet and everything goes to high hell.

So you see. This thread exists because someone's though consummate with a physical action, typing and clicking, and ended up giving birth to this thread.

That is how threads are born.

 

[Luigimanski64]

Wow, i dont enjoy either of those things, i was just thinking that pm was a collective game that reflected the decisions of a community of smashers, given thats how they market it as, a game designed by smashers rather than those who arent invested in comp smash. Guess i was wrong there. And honestly i never have agreed with or respected the decisions the pmbr has made and never will, and if the games future is led solely by a small group of incredibly opinionated and biased, childish individuals like strong bad and friends who arent even exceptionally talented yet continue to talk like they are, then i dont think i can can behind it too well nor do i expect it to last very long. The community is filled with many great ideas on how to balance and design characters and i think it would be beneficial to take the time to recognize the communitys thoughts and learn what you can instead of ignoring them altogether. Pmbr is far too closed minded and superficial to work, if you say that youre a community project for smashers then youll need to at least recognize your own playerbase, otherwise it just makes you a bunch of communists.

 

[Strong Badam]

Why does this thread exist then

Threads here are rarely for the purpose of improving PM. This thread is so players can discuss how good characters are for the purpose of use in tournament. Character discussion threads are for improving a character's metagame and sharing opinions about matchups, new strategies, combo trees, etc..

 

[Luigimanski64]

Threads her are rarely for the purpose of improving PM. This thread is so players can discuss how good characters are for the purpose of use in tournament. Character discussion threads are for improving a character's metagame and sharing opinions about matchups, new strategies, combo trees, etc..

But i wrote a 4 paragraph tldr that included a list of the perfect falcon buffs and now youre telling me that its not good for anything. This is my personal opinion, but i dont trust anyone else, not even melee players like s2j and hax die to their views on falcon, to handle falcon correctly. His design is so fragile yet so near perfection that its an art form of sorts. Please make me pmbr strong bad. Assimilate me into your ranks. Make me a god.

 

[Terotrous]

No. A tier list is to look at how the metagame has developed as of 3.02. The tier list is supposed to treat 3.02 as if it is the final release of the game. Are you saying that we have a tier list for melee for the sole purpose to see who needs buffs?

The Melee tier list was obviously used to decide who to buff for PM.


And they really are two sides of the same coin. When talking about a character's tier position, you talk about what puts them in that tier. For example, Jigglypuff is low tier because she lacks versatility, only has a few good normals, and has a lot of bad matchups. "How could we fix those issues?" is a natural extension to that discussion.


I'm not shocked that the Backroom takes our opinions with a whole box of salt, but we do seem to be gradually approaching a consensus.

 

[Player -0]

I always hated that Infinite with a passion. When I try doing it, my opponent always manages to slip out the first throw; when the opponent does it to me, I yell. But then again, I always dodge the finishers. Damn infinite...



Well, the Melee High Tiers did receive buffs. It's just that the Melee Low Tiers received much more, with Link having the best ratio of Buffs|Nerfs.



Well, if we compare it to Marth's D-air, it would work practically the same as that. L-Cancelling is a benefactor with Sheik's D-air, and would reduce the lag by a substantial means. This would still make her good for combo games even if the attack is a bit laggier and it meteors at the tip of the feet.

I never actually mentioned, but I meant it should come out slower and the landing lag should be more affected.

Don't think that Link got the best ratio of Buffs|Nerfs. Roy could easily advocate for that spot. Or even Kirby.

 

[Terotrous]

Don't think that Link got the best ratio of Buffs|Nerfs. Roy could easily advocate for that spot. Or even Kirby.

Kirby definitely gets my vote for most improved, which isn't surprising because he had the furthest to go.

 

[woundedust]

But i wrote a 4 paragraph tldr that included a list of the perfect falcon buffs and now youre telling me that its not good for anything. This is my personal opinion, but i dont trust anyone else, not even melee players like s2j and hax die to their views on falcon, to handle falcon correctly. His design is so fragile yet so near perfection that its an art form of sorts. Please make me pmbr strong bad. Assimilate me into your ranks. Make me a god.

I like that idea. Falcon is right at the tip of perfection, but lacks it somewhere in that jank ass little jump suit of his

 

[Player -0]

But i wrote a 4 paragraph tldr that included a list of the perfect falcon buffs and now youre telling me that its not good for anything. This is my personal opinion, but i dont trust anyone else, not even melee players like s2j and hax die to their views on falcon, to handle falcon correctly. His design is so fragile yet so near perfection that its an art form of sorts. Please make me pmbr strong bad. Assimilate me into your ranks. Make me a god.

Confirmed crazy and blasphemous, nerf him to Ganon level!

 

[Sour Supreme]

@ L Luigimanski64

Spoiler

I think you've entirely misunderstood this thread, as well as the game as a whole. Saying you though this game was made by Smashers, rather than people who aren't involved in Comp Smash, as well as thinking that to be a good thing is simply asinine. The Casual, as well as Comp Community is where dedication lies. We've only been playing SSBM for 13 years now. Project M was designed by people who want to embrace the aspects of a game we love in a new form. Project M is a magnificent pursuit, and if it isn't for you I suggest you take your input elsewhere.

As for this thread, a Tier List is simply determining what characters are the best and worst skill wise. If you have nerf/buff input I suggest you find a thread under each individual character. That being said, it's a little rude to suggest such things. The PMBR has worked hard to create a great game, just because you think buffs or nerfs are needed doesn't mean that opinion needs to be spoken. I trust the PMBR to make a great game, something they'll surely do. So man, I just suggest you get your panties out of that wad and take your opinion elsewhere.

 

[B.W.]

Because people like making lists

Which is why Christmas is the best holiday.

 

[CyberZixx]

S tier
Christmas

A tier
Haloween, Easter, Canada day(or 4th of july for you Amercians)

B tier
Thanksgiving, New Years

C tier
St. Patricks day, Remembrance day

D tier
Boxing day, Good friday

F tier
anything I forgot

 

[Paradoxium]

S tier
Christmas

A tier
Haloween, Easter, Canada day(or 4th of july for you Amercians)

B tier
Thanksgiving, New Years

C tier
St. Patricks day, Remembrance day

D tier
Boxing day, Good friday

F tier
anything I forgot

Christmas shouldn't be S tier it should be S- or A+ because the school systems nerfed it from 3 weeks to 2

and Thanksgiving has way more options than halloween, switch those positions

 

[Ali Baba 177]

you should spend less time on the tier list and more time posting videos of how beast your lucario is

Ive only actually been to GC once and didn't get streamed. I just found out though that my roommate might have some recording equipment, so maybe. But I'd rather any footage be from stream rather then friendlies at home and stuff, feels less legit.

 

[Seagull Joe]

After playing Esam constantly this past week I've realized is busted lmao.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm going to rephrase that to everyone should probably be open to having their views on characters challenged

But I do think Samus is good. And if she's busted idgaf it's Samus.

 

[Vashimus]

Samus is in the same boat as Toon LInk. Extremely good character, but the really good players don't travel much so people go off tournament results and write her off.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Samus is mid-tier at best. People just play the match-up like a dingus and make her look way more borked than she actually is. Seriously, I was way less impressed by ESAM's play than I was dumbfounded at how poorly everyone at Xanadu played the match-up.

In short: git gud.

 

[Ripple]

samus may be busted for you plebs that play on the ground. I live in the air and never have a problem with projectiles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pretty sure the reason you have no problems with projectiles is your unlimited supply of loyal mindless meat-shield minions

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No problem is too great if you have enough corpses to fling at it

 

[Ripple]

I only need 1 minion to block hordes of projectiles

www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/523366352?t=9h47m40s

 

[9bit]

Waddle puttin' in work

 

[Mr.Random]

If there's one place we don't look to determine who needs buffs/nerfs, it's this thread.

Thank god you clarified this. The main reason there shouldn't be a tier list in my opinion, is because there are lots of characters unexplored and the meta game is still young. Too early to call buffs and nerfs when not many people experiment with other characters or haven't learned certain MU's. Like M2K said this game is very match up based. With stage and character counterpicks being important. I think once more characters are explored or are at full potential, then we can call for buffs/nerfs but as of now it's too early.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, it may be early, but that doesn't change the fact that the tier list can still be made. Brawl's tier list took a rather short amount of time, and it, for the most part, is unchanged. Same goes for Smash 64, where the only significant changes are mainly Link's rise and Ness's fall.

But now I got a new personal tier list of mine coming out really soon, so be ready for that.

 

[Plum]

Thank god you clarified this. The main reason there shouldn't be a tier list in my opinion, is because there are lots of characters unexplored and the meta game is still young. Too early to call buffs and nerfs when not many people experiment with other characters or haven't learned certain MU's. Like M2K said this game is very match up based. With stage and character counterpicks being important. I think once more characters are explored or are at full potential, then we can call for buffs/nerfs but as of now it's too early.

it doesn't matter how young or unexplored a metagame is, a tier list is just a reflection of the metagame at the time of creation that evolves alongside the meta
so maybe we put somebody like Olimar in low tier because he's unexplored, but we eventually learn more about him and adjust his position given more knowledge
it's not like we were wrong to put him in low tier at the time, because given what was known he was
(hypothetically speaking obvs, not saying Olimar is or is not low tier)

think about it this way
a tier list represents a character's ability to perform in any given tournament
an unexplored character has less of a chance to do well than somebody who's being played at a high level in multiple regions, so low tier is actually appropriate for them

 

[Radical Larry]

it doesn't matter how young or unexplored a metagame is, a tier list is just a reflection of the metagame at the time of creation that evolves alongside the meta
so maybe we put somebody like Olimar in low tier because he's unexplored, but we eventually learn more about him and adjust his position given more knowledge
it's not like we were wrong to put him in low tier at the time, because given what was known he was
(hypothetically speaking obvs, not saying Olimar is or is not low tier)

think about it this way
a tier list represents a character's ability to perform in any given tournament
an unexplored character has less of a chance to do well than somebody who's being played at a high level in multiple regions, so low tier is actually appropriate for them

I couldn't have said it any better, Plum.
It's true that Metagame develops and we explore much further into a character until they are at peak potential.

 

[trash?]

we need to have a horrible grip on character strengths in a game before we can get a kinda-decent grip on it. that's how improvement works, folks

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I don't believe there will be any characters that we currently think are amazing, but actually aren't all that good. In most of the cases where we think someone is top tier it's because we have loads of footage of great players doing great things with them. What is far more likely to happen is there might be some characters we currently think aren't great but have some undiscovered technology that actually makes them pretty strong.

In that sense, I think we can still try to make tierlists, but you have to take the low tier with a grain of salt. As they say, if you think a character is better than the tier list says, prove it in tournament (and props to ESAM for going out there and doing it).

 

[Radical Larry]

Can't the guys who are making Project M just make their own official tier list?