Tier List Speculation

[didds]

we should convert one of falcon's taunts into something where he downs some sake

then he converts into drunken falcon fist

instant man-god tier

 

[woundedust]

Lets just give falcon super armor on everything.

 

[NickRiddle]

Bowser doesn't need to be fast, thank you.

 

[didds]

beat me to it mr. nick... oh wait I know

this thread sux? likes?

 

[SixSaw]

Give Falcon Boost Power.

Under some condition he enters a state where he moves faster and has on-hit canceling but takes self-damage from every action.

It's totally canon!

 

[MLGF]

C'mon guys.
All Falcon needs is to make his knee unable to be DI'd.
And always can be followed by a falcon punch.

#sacredcombo

 

[Nguz95]

All cfal needs to be good is have Strawhat play him.

 

[Radical Larry]

What Falcon really needs is his Smash 64 Falcon Punch.

 

[Plum]

Smash 64 Usmash doe?

 

[Radical Larry]

Smash 64 Usmash doe?

Now if his Usmash was an uppercut instead of an elbow uppercut, that would work. That or give him better linking to his Usmash already, because speed is not a good factor for that attack.

 

[Player -0]

Give Falcon a Shoryuken and a fireball and we're set.

 

[Mr.Random]

Let's give everyone a shine and Falco's lasers. There we go. Balanced.

 

[Player -0]

Sonic for top tier then.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Falcon could probably use another launcher/OoS option. People have been clamoring for 64 USmash for a while.

 

[DMG]

No@Launcher
10no's

What Falcon would deserve, are buffs on offense to deal with shorter characters + crouching/crawling tactics. Certain characters suddenly get much harder to deal with, by simply pressing down, and it's kind of silly. A grab that scoops lower, or a lower hitting Nair would probably be the ideal choices. Alternatively, better tilts (but it's hard to imagine a buff to his tilts that addresses that issue, since people would probably crouch + shield if needed to stop the tilt). Short characters tend to be harder as well, since you usually have to be already falling/beyond the apex of your SH to hit them with an aerial that is not Dair.

If they don't want to buff him on offense, then buffs on defense are certainly in order. He has some terrible defensive traits. Maybe give less lag after falling from Upb, better tech roll distance/speed/animation, better OOS options. Possibly buff how quick Upb can grab when you use it on the ground? Extend the range it can grab by a tad on the ground? Something like that. Falcon has most of the downsides that Spacies have, but doesn't have the overwhelming offense/forceful options to mitigate the flaws. That's a problem.

 

[trash?]

realtalk: falcon is regarded so low because he's already considered kind of overrated in melee as-is, especially considering every other top tier gets consistent top placings where he doesn't, and he's only gotten SLIGHTLY better whereas everyone below him got a LOT better. 'tis the problem of being a glass cannon in a metagame where someone does glass cannon-ing better than you

 

[Soft Serve]

No@Launcher
10no's

What Falcon would deserve, are buffs on offense to deal with shorter characters + crouching/crawling tactics. Certain characters suddenly get much harder to deal with, by simply pressing down, and it's kind of silly. A grab that scoops lower, or a lower hitting Nair would probably be the ideal choices. Alternatively, better tilts (but it's hard to imagine a buff to his tilts that addresses that issue, since people would probably crouch + shield if needed to stop the tilt). Short characters tend to be harder as well, since you usually have to be already falling/beyond the apex of your SH to hit them with an aerial that is not Dair.

If they don't want to buff him on offense, then buffs on defense are certainly in order. He has some terrible defensive traits. Maybe give less lag after falling from Upb, better tech roll distance/speed/animation, better OOS options. Possibly buff how quick Upb can grab when you use it on the ground? Extend the range it can grab by a tad on the ground? Something like that. Falcon has most of the downsides that Spacies have, but doesn't have the overwhelming offense/forceful options to mitigate the flaws. That's a problem.

Falcon doesn't even have nearly the same defencive options that spacies have either. Good rolls/tech rolls, Wake up-shine and side-step shine, as well as the best OoS (oh hey shine again) are all things spacies can rub in falcon's face. Falcon still functions well once he gets openings and conversions, but he's not in the greatest of spots imo, more projectiles in the neutral make his Dash dance heavy neutral constrained, and his overall mobility has more competition than just fox/marth, MK/Sonic/wolf and others can keep up with him now. And short characters exist too which sucks. I feel like the Samus/Falcon MU got a lot worse for him now that Samus can abuse crawling.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Roll + shine
So many intangible frames T-T"

 

[Bleck]

Falcon's moves just need to be faster. Makes no sense for a character who, on the surface, is all about high-mobility and close-range pressure to also have a bunch of relatively slow attacks. What's the point of being the second-fastest character in the game if someone's just gonna bonk you away once you close the distance?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Would it be a bad thing if his knee came out as fast as Zelda's bair/fair? I mean, those moves right there, are falcon's knee, for girls.

 

[Mr.Random]

I agree with DMG. Especially a lower scooping grab. Speaking of characters. Why is Jigglypuff so low on lists? Is there anything she can use to help her? I honestly think maybe redesigning some of her more useless moves. Like Sing could be redesigned to be a tech chasing tool similar to Snake's tranq gun. It would fit her character too.

 

[didds]

I agree with DMG. Especially a lower scooping grab. Speaking of characters. Why is Jigglypuff so low on lists? Is there anything she can use to help her? I honestly think maybe redesigning some of her more useless moves. Like Sing could be redesigned to be a tech chasing tool similar to Snake's tranq gun. It would fit her character too.

careful, you'll awaken the sleep to rest argument

 

[Mr.Random]

careful, you'll awaken the sleep to rest argument

You'd have to predict the roll and to be honest I wouldn't mind it. Any other ideas would be cool that's why I'm bringing it up. Is there anything you guys can think of to help Puff?

 

[didds]

If you guys notice that I stop posting for a few days, then I died in a tornado in Hastings, MN.

may god have mercy on my soul

but forreal if die for my job I'll be mad salty

tornadoes are top tier.

but on the topic of the sleep thing, i guess if it was a quick wakeup like the tranq it might not be too bad. By the time percent is high enough that you'll be asleep for awhile then rest won't be the best option anyway. idk i hate jiggs anyway so I'm happy she suffers muahaha

 

[Radical Larry]

Who would agree that the tip of Sheik's foot (literally the tips) should be a meteor smash with electric properties on her down aerial?

 

[Luigimanski64]

Falcon's moves just need to be faster. Makes no sense for a character who, on the surface, is all about high-mobility and close-range pressure to also have a bunch of relatively slow attacks. What's the point of being the second-fastest character in the game if someone's just gonna bonk you away once you close the distance?

His attacks are far too strong and his punish game is far too expansive to allow for quick, long ranged, and safe attacks. It also goes against his unique playstyle which many people are fond of. Hes never been an aggressive character, more of a bait and punish character with a powerful punish and tanky bulk to cover his slightly less than average neutral game, and even then its not that bad since he has the mobility to bait out laggy moves, the grab game to beat CC and shielding, and quick attacks to catch opponents who are jumping or are vulnerable. Hes a character of extremes and that is something that many people enjoy from melee thats isnt present in pm, polarized characters. Most characters in pm are very averaged out like diddy or mario, and even wolf who is a spacie is the most well rounded of the three. I enjoy characters like snake and roy for their defined roles, and in fact roy succeeds in the MUs in which falcon struggles to be consistent in, which are fast fallers, and is weak to floaties which falcon slays. Whatever buffs falcon should receive, which imo he may need but not to the level that you all are suggesting, should not change the core of his character which attack speed increases would. Falcon is probably thd most unique fighter in any fighting game to date since ge falls under no true established archetype, and it should stay that way.

Now knowing how falcon performs in the game is crucial to knowing what buffs he needs. He is actually helped more by the environment in pm due to the number of floaties (or lack of fastfallers) and the number of large stages. Some of his buffs helped as well, such as his side b latching on to recovery for quick ledge grabs as opposed to how excessively laggy his up b is in certain situations were falcon is already near the ledge. His side b adjustments help to grab the ledge quicker on stage leading to slightly improved edgegaurds and less risky/ more appliable raptor boosts since being on the ledge is really safe for falcon. His falcon kick buffs helped the speed and strength of the move making it better for tech chases and escaping pressure. His up b is longer making him sweetspot better and he can survive better and go deeper off stage. His recovery is still edgegaurdable, but hes much less helpless than he used to be and he now has the options to survive in most situations. His recovery should be untouched.

Unfortunately, these buffs and falcons new environment only take him so far with how powerful many characters are in this game. However the smallness of characters is very overblown, the size doesnt matter once you start a combo and he still has tools to hit them. His nair will always land the second hit, which causes knockdown and thus tech chases, and this is where it differs from fox and falco who are also small. Falcons grab leads to great things on floaties regardless of size and he gets more off of tech chase grabs than on spacies and doesnt have to tech chase nearly as long. They stay in the air longer and makes the lack of good vertical launchers less important, you just need that grab. Uairing opponents on platforms is another way to technically begin juggles, and it starts combos better than against spacies. All of falcons aerials still hit grounded opponents, especially knees which are useful when the opponent is conditioned to expect nairs. Late uairs and gentlemans are also good options for hitting low opponents that cause either juggles, or knockdown > techchase.

What falcon truly suffers from is the fact that hes just outclassed. Its not any single downside of his that is weighing him down, and he still works. Its just that falcons punish game still cannot fully cover his weaknesses. Its close, but his weaknesses barely exceed the margin of balance. His comboability, techchasability, edgegaurdability, and ease of keeping out all stack up and outweigh the capabilities of his exceptional punish, and this is because he is in a game where hes hardly changed from his melee self against a cast of characters stronger than marth and peach, whom he went even with in melee. All three could use a little help in this game. Some buffs I would personally like to see is changing his bair to a move with a 7 or even 8 frame startup. I think its weird how its slower than his uair even though he just punchs backwards and he flips for his uair, which is a larger range of motion. This would help solidify his edgegaurd game and complete his offense, I think. Another is to make his raptor boost pass through projectiles and have transcendent priority to beat most attacks, but retain its lag on shield or miss. This i feel would create another core option to falcons arsenal that retains the theme of high risk high reward. If his tech rolls were sped up to an average and his spot dodge given the same frames as marth, this would help give him a little more leniency in the incredibly likely chance he is caught. And this last one might be a little excessive, but if his tilts could be slightly sped up both in startibg and ending lag it would be helpful. His ftilt would be a nice grounded poke to rival his nair, his dtilt would be a good low hitting launcher and crouch cancel tool, and his utilt would be slightly less situational.

 

[NickRiddle]

Who would agree that the tip of Sheik's foot (literally the tips) should be a meteor smash with electric properties on her down aerial?

Sheik needs more things?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ L Luigimanski64
Longest, informative non-spam first post I've ever seen. Congratulations^^

 

[XXXX1000]

The biggest thing (to me) about buffing Jiggly's Sing is that her current moveset is just terrible from a game design standpoint so the focus shouldn't even be on making the current one good, it should be reworking it altogether. She is focused on removing the opponent's ability to do anything, which is not a good design. It just so happens that she used to be good at it in Melee but sucks at it here, so people wan to help her, but to be honest I don't think her current moveset deserves any help at all, I think it should die. The second biggest thing is that buffing Sing simply turns her matchups into "she beats those that she can easily land it on, and loses to those she can't" which is polarizing and not very fun and also not good design.

and I see tons of people putting Sheik in top tiers and saying "wow does Sheik really need more options" but she also wasn't changed very much from Melee apart from her throws which are mostly considered a nerf. She still has ass recovery, a solid combo game but her kill moves don't kill as easily as they used to, needles don't get kills for her offstage as easily as they used to. Why do people still see her as dominant?

 

[Radical Larry]

Sheik needs more things?

I'm just saying that her literal tip of the foot should be like that, seeing as I haven't seen a meteor on her yet. Of course, the timing of the attack would be similar to Falcon's Knee Smash, which is on a few specific frames, if not one.

But to compensate this, the aerial could be more laggy on both air and ground, to nerf her a bit. Now who agrees on this?

 

[Rawkobo]

Sheik needs something. I don't know what it is exactly, but there's something just sort of missing that keeps her much further down than she wants to be compared to many of her Melee partners-in-crime.

 

[Giygacoal]

Sheik needs something. I don't know what it is exactly, but there's something just sort of missing that keeps her much further down than she wants to be compared to many of her Melee partners-in-crime.

So basically Jigglypuff syndrome?

 

[Terotrous]

Lets just give falcon super armor on everything.

I could actually see an argument for him having some armor on Side B. It's still quite punishable on block, so you can't just toss it out mindlessly, but it might help his neutral against some opponents.


I also feel that Falcon's recovery should probably be a little better. Like Roy, I simply don't feel he's strong enough to justify such awful recovery. I suggested previously that you could consider making the angle on Falcon Kick be closer to 45 degrees (it's currently like 20 degrees), this would allow him to use the Falcon Kick recovery more often, though he'd still be bad at recovering low.


I also really liked BBrawl's Falcon change where Falcon could cancel the landing recovery of air falcon kick into any other special move, including ground Falcon Kick. It made him feel a lot faster overall, but it might be too broken in practice.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Make ic a little more like they used to be
And revamp puff
Boom
Problems solved and problems born anew

 

[Ripple]

sheik needs more things.

if I got a needle thrown into my abdomen, I think I'd be saying more than "ouch, 2%"

 

[Luigimanski64]

sheik needs more things.

if I got a needle thrown into my abdomen, I think I'd be saying more than "ouch, 2%"

If i got shot by a laser I think id be saying more than "oh 1% ok"

I'm just saying that her literal tip of the foot should be like that, seeing as I haven't seen a meteor on her yet. Of course, the timing of the attack would be similar to Falcon's Knee Smash, which is on a few specific frames, if not one.

But to compensate this, the aerial could be more laggy on both air and ground, to nerf her a bit. Now who agrees on this?

Just give her back her d throw. She wasnt even op with it so idk why youd get rid of it. Besides more characters get free things off of grabs in this game that sheik ever did

 

[Paradoxium]

Just give her back her d throw. She wasnt even op with it so idk why youd get rid of it. Besides more characters get free things off of grabs in this game that sheik ever did

That d throw is the real reason why most chars in melee are unviable

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think Sheik has that Sonic 2.6 syndrome, viable but lost a bit of the character's identity / less fun to play (with the difference Sheik is still better than 2.6 Sonic). Because of the worse down-throw approaching is not that rewarding and just using needles/ waiting for mistakes is the best strategy more often. Also, Sheik hasn't got that P:M flash like some melee characters already had and most newcomers now have.
Balancewise I don't think she needs anything, but for example a slight buff on chain or the dair meteor wouldn't make her op, maybe also make some approach tool better in exchange for a little needle nerf to not make her so reliant on that one move

 

[Luigimanski64]

That d throw is the real reason why most chars in melee are unviable

Its not enough to make fox or falco unviable, and she still struggles against characters like icies and puff debatably. The top tier characters she beats lose to her mainly because theyre worse than her anyway (marth peach and falcon) and you cant really count mid or low tiers since theyre already disadvantaged. Saying that sheiks d throw is responsibile for making most characters bad is the same as saying that marths fair does the same thing. Just because they destroy characters that lack options to beat or compensate for it doesnt make it itself is responsibile for breaking MUs. If people really think its as bad as everyone says then they should put it up for subject testing, its avoidable if you dont get grabbed and i dont personally believe it will matter too much against a cast where the strongest characters in the game are all near or slightly above fox like diddy kong.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Wait... Sheik is LESS fun to play now that she isn't centralized on an incredibly degenerate d-throw...?