Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

It's not a weakness if your character can play around instances where the option probably isn't viable. The problem with Ness is that so much power is tossed into PK fire and into grabbing, that it doesn't make sense to hold back on those options and attempt other stuff in Neutral.

Ike has a lot he could do in Neutral besides QD (he has a big meaty sword that loves to hit many different angles). Fox can run around and Laser. Falcon (while fairly linear and limited in his own right) can opt to play decently strong DD/Dash options. Ness does not generally have other things that make as much sense, or that end up being just as effective.




Having a decent MU with Fox is one thing, but he has some struggles. It's very obvious he has a problem with DK, and while he's a tad better at dealing with CCing characters, that's traditionally been a thorn in his side. PM isn't going to be huge on "Ok I got an even MU with Fox, so I'm secured in top tier". PM is going to be about "Can I go up against the general cast, and not have too many bad MU's?".

The general cast is MONSTROUS at handing out very bad MU's back and forth. You really have to watch your back in this game.

I was gonna reply to @ Thane of Blue Flames but DMG beat me to it.

Ness isn't fine due to how over-reliant he is on PK fire. The other guys mentioned have other options at their disposal that are just as good & viable as the ones mentioned whereas Ness really doesn't, thus polarization.

Second, when did I ever say Roy is "low tier"? He is simply "Below Average" in my eyes due to again what DMG covered. MU's in general are incredibly important in this game seeing as you can literally run into just about any character (barring 5 or so that I mentioned) and they can be a threat.

Thankfully, it seems that that vast majority of MUs in this game are evenish to the point of player skill being the determining factor of a given match. However, those with more disadvantaged MU's I'd put in "Below Average" (the Heavies all face an uphill battle vs zoners) and those with more good than bad are in "Above Average", and so on. This doesn't mean a BA can't compete with an AA, far from it. It's just that in the grand scheme they aren't as powerful, you dig?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

ESAM had a pretty good showing at Xanadu.

Still lost to Mew2King, but good Samus. Beat Squeak, Pink, and Boss.

 

[trash?]

samus is the most lopsided character in terms of matchups. I don't really see that as a bad thing tho, good matchups are good matchups and you should make use of them, and while samus has some booty matchups (her vs. any floaty is a bad move) she still holds that grip on spacies from melee so it can't be too bad. ESAM definitely has other counterpicks in situations where samus doesn't do as well, too

 

[Strong Badam]

No offense to those players but there are several players who can do that and I'm not at all surprised that ESAM beat them.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No offense to those players but there are several players who can do that and I'm not at all surprised that ESAM beat them.

Didn't say there weren't, just found him showing up and mowing through Xanadu kinda funny.

And at least there's now more footage showing what Samus can do.

 

[DMG]

Lopsided in what way? You could interpret that as having the least amount of evenish MU's, having the biggest gap in the extremeties (Beats X 9-1, loses to Y 9-1), etc.

 

[DMG]

Edit: Smashboards ate up my posts, I think prob a bug rendering a new page for the thread. Anyways, someone delete!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Can we move ROB to high tier now? There were 2 ROBs in top 16 at WHOBO; more importantly, it would make ROB sad if he found out everyone thinks he's mid tier, were he to have a processor powerful enough for emotion

 

[Axxo]

My MLG match <3
Axxo Vs Luck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNdvy0u1suA

 

[Radical Larry]

Can we move ROB to high tier now? There were 2 ROBs in top 16 at WHOBO; more importantly, it would make ROB sad if he found out everyone thinks he's mid tier, were he to have a processor powerful enough for emotion

A single tournament cannot decide the outcome, it takes time and a multitude of tournaments for this to happen. If ROB wants to see a higher position on the tier list, we'd have to see a multitude of tournaments in his favor against characters considered higher tiered in the game.

Tell me, though, who was all in the top 16 in WHOBO?

 

[DMG]

Zero- Pit
Sethlon- Roy
Mango- Fox (I assume he was mostly Fox for PM, that's what I saw him using on stream for all of his sets iirc)
Denti- Ivy
Luck- Diddy
Strawhat- Roy/Falcon (I dunno how much Falcon Strawhat used, I saw more Roy and 1-2 games maybe of Falcon)
AeroLink- Link
Oracle- Rob/Lucas (I dunno who all Oracle used, I assume these were the main two)
DrinkingFood- Rob

That's about all I know. I have no idea who Espy, Trela, or some of the others played as. Characters weren't listed in the results thread, just going off what I know

 

[Turazrok]

Would you believe Jnig got 9th as sheik? lolololololololololololol

 

[DMG]

I totaly believe that, the power of Shek compels it

 

[Terotrous]

It's not a weakness if your character can play around instances where the option probably isn't viable. The problem with Ness is that so much power is tossed into PK fire and into grabbing, that it doesn't make sense to hold back on those options and attempt other stuff in Neutral.

Certainly also Fair, it's a definite staple of Ness's neutral game. Occasionally also Nair, Dair, and Bair. DJCs can make all of his aerials scary in certain situations.

Can we move ROB to high tier now? There were 2 ROBs in top 16 at WHOBO; more importantly, it would make ROB sad if he found out everyone thinks he's mid tier, were he to have a processor powerful enough for emotion

I had ROB at upper mid from Day 1. He's clearly got pretty solid tools and his recovery is fantastic.

 

[Mr.Random]

Welp, Sethlon just put Mango's Fox in Loser's at WHOBO. Great set. Chat exploded with johns, of course.

You have to admit it was an awesome set. So close each match. Don't know why Mango had so much trouble edgeguarding though? Roy beating him was cool though.

 

[DMG]

Roy's Upb iirc "hangs" at the end better than Melee, and rolling from the edge doesn't "block" the edge as long as Melee. There were 2-3 clear cases where he probably wouldn't have lived if those were different. Early Roy Upb can also be wonky to deal with if you haven't already grabbed the edge.

 

[Epidemic]

Why is Falcon considered not good now? To me it seems like he is just struggling to adapt, rather than being genuinely bad. He still has killer combos on most every character if anything all the new MU's allow his character to expand. Falcon is good, he just needs time to adapt IMO.

 

[didds]

Sounds like the case for most of the cast

 

[DMG]

Why struggle to adapt, when you can be a good character? No easier way to put it

 

[GrosMinou]

Why struggle to adapt, when you can be a good character? No easier way to put it

When you can be a more Developed character**

If everyone thinks that way, we are gonna sleep on alot of characters...

 

[didds]

I'd only want to sleep on DeDeDe. He looks very comfortable. Maybe grab jiggs for a pillow.

 

[Plum]

When you can be a more Developed character**

If everyone thinks that way, we are gonna sleep on alot of characters...

Falcon as we know him has been a thing since 2001. It's not like there's just going to be a magical breakthrough that suddenly makes Falcon leaps and bounds better than he is already. He doesn't really have much room to grow, assuming he's left as is, at this point frankly.
Same can be said for a character like Jiggs.

 

[Empyrean]

Falcon will only get better when he realizes he's got a ****ing gun he doesn't bother to use.

 

[Espy Rose]

DMG you disappoint me. Who would I POSSIBLY play in PM?
Just tell me. Who?

 

[Epidemic]

That is a good point tho, There are a lot of good characters that could be better if more people played them. It's all up to personal preference but it would make the game cooler if there were less Mario's and Fox's and more Falcon's or Lucario's. Every character has a lot cool things that are undiscovered and it seems like we are missing out on a lot of that. On top of that, PM is a different game than melee. PM is a bigger game than melee and as such, there is more to explore. Rationally speaking, no crazy AT or anything else is going to be discovered for Falcon that makes him uber s rank, but Falcon has been changing every year since 2001, and now with PM, even more change can happen. The year 20XX is a ways away, and we certainly aren't there yet.


Edit: Added some stuff

 

[didds]

Still hardly see squirtle players use crawl tilts. That move is good.

 

[DMG]

DMG you disappoint me. Who would I POSSIBLY play in PM?
Just tell me. Who?

I would have guessed Jiggs, but she seems really bad in PM/dunno how appealing she would be. I didn't consider Sonic, due to how displeased you seemed about him. Those are the only two characters I know you for IIRC, so I was stumped who you would play since they didn't seem 100% certain.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic is terribly designed.
He's still Sonic the Hedgehog though, and I'm a tool.

I thought this was established a long time ago maaannnnn.

 

[NickRiddle]

DMG you disappoint me. Who would I POSSIBLY play in PM?
Just tell me. Who?

Applejack.

 

[DMG]

Ponies confirmed Smash 12

 

[Espy Rose]

Put her in and I'll quit Smash forever.

 

[didds]

Just play Diddy, haven't you heard he's broken?

Needs more rep, I want to live in a world where the number of PM diddy surpasses the number of melee foxes.

Just constant monkey squeals and jet take off sounds.

Actually that sounds awful.

Disgustingly, painfully awful.

 

[Plum]

That is a good point tho, There are a lot of good characters that could be better if more people played them. It's all up to personal preference but it would make the game cooler if there were less Mario's and Fox's and more Falcon's or Lucario's. Every character has a lot cool things that are undiscovered and it seems like we are missing out on a lot of that. On top of that, PM is a different game than melee. PM is a bigger game than melee and as such, there is more to explore. Rationally speaking, no crazy AT or anything else is going to be discovered for Falcon that makes him uber s rank, but Falcon has been changing every year since 2001, and now with PM, even more change can happen. The year 20XX is a ways away, and we certainly aren't there yet.


Edit: Added some stuff

And the closer we seem get to 20XX the worse Falcon seems to get, and this is in Melee which is arguably more Falcon friendly than PM.
Falcon has even more BS to deal with in PM, and the things Falcon does well aren't even special anymore.

 

[Hashtag]

My MLG match <3
Axxo Vs Luck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNdvy0u1suA

Good set, you even managed to punish the infamous diddy up b.

Now, if everyone could learn how to do that....

 

[Terotrous]

Falcon will only get better when he realizes he's got a ****ing gun he doesn't bother to use.

Falcon needs a new taunt where he pulls out his gun, looks at it, then puts it away.

 

[MLGF]

And now Falcon buffs are in demand.
I dunno, I think he has quite a nice amount of matchups from the new characters in PM in the bag that Fox doesn't (Ike for example) , so he has more use and utility IMO.

 

[Soft Serve]

Just play Diddy, haven't you heard he's broken?

Needs more rep, I want to live in a world where the number of PM diddy surpasses the number of melee foxes.

Just constant monkey squeals and jet take off sounds.

Actually that sounds awful.

Disgustingly, painfully awful.

Sounds like MD/VA.

 

[didds]

any MD/VA players wanna vouch for the awfulness of a monkey surplus?

 

[DMG]

And now Falcon buffs are in demand.
I dunno, I think he has quite a nice amount of matchups from the new characters in PM in the bag that Fox doesn't (Ike for example) , so he has more use and utility IMO.

There are some Brawl characters Falcon could do better than Fox in, but Fox also has his own decent MU's vs Brawl characters. MK, Wolf, Diddy, and Wario all fear Fox more.

 

[MLGF]

I never meant to imply he doesn't. But Fox in Melee did beat most of the other Melee top tiers far easier then Falcon did, now Falcon has utility in that he can do some matchups better then other Melee tops.

Project Matchup at its finest.