Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

I really have nothing else to argue. You're literally disregarding the downsides (even while accepting their plausibility), and replacing it with FALCONNNNNNNNNN.

 

[1FD]

WAT
No disregard going on just pointing out how you're disregarding the way all those things affect others WAY MORE than Falcon since all that stuff could be WORSE in PM and it wouldn't make much of a difference to him but affects others lots
You're doing one of those logical falasy things i think but idonno how that stuff works. Like looking at one side of the coin but not the other or whatever
LIKE A LOT OF STUFF IN THIS THREAD BUT THIS ONE IS EASY TO SEE

 

[King of Hoboz]

I think the real reason Falcon doesn't have it that bad in P:M compared to Melee is because of Melee's meta. Sure, Falcon lost 'overall' positive match ups, but lets pretend for a moment that either everyone IC and above are the only characters that exist and/or everyone Samus and up exist.

With IC as the baseline, Falcon has 1:5 (1 Neutral and 1 Mirror) in ratio of Positive to Negative Match-Ups. (Using SSB Wikia, sorry if its bad info)
With Samus, Falcon has a ratio of 3:5 with 2 Neutral.

I'm very certain that Falcon's match-up ratio in P:M does not look nearly as bad as 1:5 (this implies he is a bottom 10), or at the least, he has more neutral match-ups to compensate for it.

Though if he really does have it bad, then I say BUFF FALCON. Plz...

 

[DMG]

Well see, there's your problem. You want to examine the Melee MU's only from IC's and up, but then for PM you want to use the whole cast and assume it balances out for Falcon more than 1:5. You're unequally weighing the two. I could make Falcon look better in PM, if I said hey look his Sheik MU is better in PM! Therefore he can do better.

1FD: I have nothing else to say. I think you are extremely wrong, and if I asked 95% of serious Falcon players, they wouldn't hesitate a milisecond to disagree with you. The love of Falcon is appreciated, but you take it beyond reality lol

 

[King of Hoboz]

Well, I'll admit I'm making a big assumption and potential fallacy, but I really wanted to entertain the point by trying to consider the cast within the Circle of Viability. I think that's pretty important for considering how viable Falcon actually is.

PS: I personally want Falcon buffs, and definitely think he's bottom half of the cast.

 

[DMG]

He's less viable in this game than Melee, because he has to deal with more "random" bad/evenish MU's from characters not found in the top/upper cast. There are also more top characters that will give him a decently hard time. How strong the Melee characters were buffed (on average) should have already given a small glimpse into the reality that Falcon will have to work harder just to keep up, let alone try to thrive.

 

[MLGF]

While I agree with Falcon having a bit of a hard time in PM with the new match ups, I feel he's an extremely solid character and he doesn't necessarily need anything else to flourish.

Just make it so the Sacred Combo is an auto combo

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

If I lived in Chicago, it'd be done. No crew could beat us in an 8v8. Actually that's probably true already.

Put me on the texas crew and then you can talk big boi

 

[JOE!]

Antarctica will **** all over your fake *** regions, we body *****s over wifi on the daily

#MeleeGang
#2Cold4YourRegions

So, thats where the Dedede mains are from

 

[1FD]

Step 1 Dedede gets good edgeguarding
Step 2 Falcon doesn't care since it could have been crap and wouldn't make a difference
Step 3 Everyone else cares because it actually makes fighting Dedede hard than it would have been otherwise
Step 4 This is............. BAD for......... FALCON?
So other characters get buffs to make them better at all things and Falcon not being affected as much by these buffs is hurt the most when all others are extremely affected by it?
WTF I don't get this logic at all and if that is what 95% of Falcon players and the community thinks then there is the reason jokes are made about Falcon players. XD
LIKE FOR SERIOUS
More random/evenish matchups who cares. If the top 8 melee are still top 10 in this game (SOMEHOW) I really don't think other characters have enough new stuff to bring to the table that those top 8 didn't already. Maybe heavies with projectiles or something? XD

The logic is 1000% backwards about Falcon if you think characters getting buffed makes things worse for him than for Mario/Ivy/M2/Fox/Kirby/etc
I'm not sure this discussion will go anywhere either, but I gets we shall all agree to disagree.
YAY! :]

 

[GrosMinou]

I don't think Falcon is bad, or that he needs buff. I just think there's not enough players playing him.

Wait till a good falcon main comes up, and we'll talk.

 

[woundedust]

someone took the falcon pawnch up his butt hole last night

And liked it a little too much

 

[Paradoxium]

So, thats where the Dedede mains are from

I was gonna say something about ice climbers, because they climb snowy mountains and it relates to Antarctica, and like Fly played as ice climbers and DDD and it was supposed to be funny, but it all just kinda fell apart and now I got nothin to say. I'm sorry guys

 

[Master Raven]

Why do people keep thinking M2 is mid tier rofl? I feel like a lot of people haven't seen what he's really capable of just yet. And I'm not even basing it off of M2K vids (and I think he sandbags in over half of them given the rumors that he does it onstream to reduce chances of nerfs). Emukiller has also been showing what M2 is capable of, and I'll be doing my best to put in work with this character come CEO. M2 is easily top 5 if you ask me.

 

[CyberZixx]

M2K sandbaging so mewtwo won't get nerfed? Do you have any evidence to back up such a claim?

 

[NickRiddle]

M2K sandbaging so mewtwo won't get nerfed? Do you have any evidence to back up such a claim?

"given the rumors"

 

[Master Raven]

That's just what I keep hearing from several people. Whatever, my point is people shouldn't be judging the potential of a character off of the results of one player alone.

 

[DMG]

I've heard similar rumors from people closer to him, but it's speculation at this point and Jason has honestly deflated his opinion of M2 over time after hard games with the character. The most likely scenario is that he doesn't see the character as broken, but also doesn't want an overreaction/nerfs because of how damn good he plays.

If you know the old history of Brawl, you'd understand how plausible it might be. Jason did not want to be recorded a LOT in the early, earlyyy meta of Brawl. One of the rules sometimes found in tourney rulesets, that says "TO has the right to record every set and put it on Youtube" is largely attributed to Jason + a few minor others refusing to play recorded sets.

 

[Master Raven]

Oh trust me I know how impulsive M2K can be with his opinions on characters haha.

I just think Mewtwo's kit is ridiculously good, especially when more people figure out how to use his teleport mixups and edgeguards, and hover combos, effectively. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best character, but he's got a top tier moveset imo.

 

[CyberZixx]

That is bizarre of m2k if true. I can see M2K doing something like that though. People do bandwagon hate on characters when they are doing well. Look at Diddy for the most recent example. I heard M2K say he don't like hard balance changes to characters and weather sandbagging or not would not want that to mewtwo.

 

[Master Raven]

Wizzy also didn't enter PM at the last Apex because he felt the PMBR would nerf Sonic again if they saw what Wizzy was doing with him. The advent of patch changes, while I gladly welcome them, has put a fear on players who don't want their favorite characters nerfed if they're beating everyone with them. There seems to be a distrust in the PMBR insofar as balance patches are concerned.

 

[Strong Badam]

He didn't enter because he had quit since 2.6's release and hadn't really entered anything since 3.0 came out. Had nothing to do with fears or anything or he'd just not enter CEO.

 

[SunJester]

I've been meaning to ask, is Pit's D-throw really as cheesy on Spacies as M2K (See: M2K vs Zero) makes it out to be? Or is M2K just DI-ing it wrong?

 

[Epidemic]

What do you guys see as the future of Lucas? He is already pretty good and there isn't as well developed meta game around him as some other characters. Would you guys nerd him or buff him? I personally, would probably nerf him or keep him the same, I would like to give characters like Lucario or Ness see more play and I think that Lucas is one of the favorite pm characters along with Wolf. I don't mean that people should stop playing Lucas, but more that other characters can have just as flashy and fun things to do.

 

[DMG]

I've been meaning to ask, is Pit's D-throw really as cheesy on Spacies as M2K (See: M2K vs Zero) makes it out to be? Or is M2K just DI-ing it wrong?

Depends on what you mean. It's a legit CG (depending on character obv) for a decent amount of %, with free hits on many characters guaranteed regardless of DI. Many throws are kind of like that: it's just obvious that Pit Dthrow way overshadows his other throws lol.

DI in = free Uairs, Usmashes, Upb, etc. You pop up, and slightly towards Pit. When you DI away, he can generally regrab you for more % or get the free Fair. Anything inbetween tends to get covered by those choices anyways.

 

[metroid1117]

I've been meaning to ask, is Pit's D-throw really as cheesy on Spacies as M2K (See: M2K vs Zero) makes it out to be? Or is M2K just DI-ing it wrong?

No, it's a legitimate chaingrab. M2K and Zero were playing that match-up almost all day at the Du Quoin tournament last weekend and M2K couldn't really do anything about it except hope that his DI tricked Zero into missing the regrab.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd.

 

[DMG]

It's really brutal on characters who are Light + FF status. A heavier FF like Falcon might be able to DI away and touch the ground before you get a true followup at lower %'s. Example of this: Zero vs Sethlon. Roy is light, but the FF status really screws him. You'll find it similar for MK/Diddy/Lucas/Fox/etc

 

[SunJester]

Hrm, that's pretty hammy then, I'm not a huge fan of nerfs, but I feel like this would need to be changed at some point.

 

[Strong Badam]

I've been meaning to ask, is Pit's D-throw really as cheesy on Spacies as M2K (See: M2K vs Zero) makes it out to be? Or is M2K just DI-ing it wrong?

It is definitely that good. Idk why good things need to be called cheesy but yeah.

 

[Nguz95]

It is definitely that good. Idk why good things need to be called cheesy but yeah.

Because cheese is good, obviously.

 

[Player -0]

Doesn't the D-Throw CG make it so the FF'er doesn't pop higher than the BF platform?

If so, better than Marf's. Plus good launching abilities (Fair, D-Smash, Bair)


I feel like it's almost fine except that. Doesn't Pit get pretty free Fairs out of Down Throw too? If AND change a tad bit more endlag would suffice probably. It feels pretty fine though. Idk

 

[KayB]

I feel like we're in a point in the game where there aren't any overpowering characters nor players complaining about overpowering characters. Honestly a few nerfs and buffs here and there wouldn't hurt, but largely PM is pretty solid now.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That's just what I keep hearing from several people. Whatever, my point is people shouldn't be judging the potential of a character off of the results of one player alone.

Whoever said that is screwing with you. M2K plays without mercy against anyone, he don't even do it for the glory. He do it for the money.

 

[G13_Flux]

It's really brutal on characters who are Light + FF status. A heavier FF like Falcon might be able to DI away and touch the ground before you get a true followup at lower %'s. Example of this: Zero vs Sethlon. Roy is light, but the FF status really screws him. You'll find it similar for MK/Diddy/Lucas/Fox/etc

Arent throws not affected by weight though? how would CFs weight change things in this case?

What do you guys see as the future of Lucas? He is already pretty good and there isn't as well developed meta game around him as some other characters. Would you guys nerd him or buff him? I personally, would probably nerf him or keep him the same, I would like to give characters like Lucario or Ness see more play and I think that Lucas is one of the favorite pm characters along with Wolf. I don't mean that people should stop playing Lucas, but more that other characters can have just as flashy and fun things to do.

IMO Lucas belongs right in the top tier with all the space animals, diddy kong, and shielda. Not only is the kid extremely fast and mobile, but hes got an insane pressure game, a great projectile for set ups, CC options, ways to deal with CCing, two of the best vertical KO options in the game, a two-in-one amazing spike/horizontal killer, AND an extremely flexible recovery... like literally, he doesnt have many weaknesses the way I see it. hes pretty comboable, and i guess his recovery doesnt have the distance that some of the others have. but what else? i think hed definitely be one of the PMBRs best designed characters if he saw just a slight nerf to kill power on things like up throw. i mean between, upsmash, upthrow, and bair, hes got all the killing power of fox PLUS some. sure the grabs can be risky at times, and up smash is punishable, but they still arent that hard to land. his bair is just LMAO. hes definitely got all the qualities of a top tier character.

diddy kong i currently believe to be at the end of the top tier, but we had this debate a few pages ago so that can just remain my opinion which is currently still speculative in my mind anyways. lucas wolf and shielda are sound up there though imo.

 

[didds]

weight affects how long it takes to throw. part of the reason fox can't uthrow > uair bowser. less time to act.

 

[Strong Badam]

weight affects how long it takes to throw. part of the reason fox can't uthrow > uair bowser. less time to act.

depends on the throw. several ignore weight for throw speed.

pit's dthrow doesn't tho

 

[didds]

depends on the throw. several ignore weight for throw speed.

pit's dthrow doesn't tho

didn't know that, thanks for the clarification.

outta curiousity, what are some that ignore weight? like zard's seismic toss or something?

 

[Strong Badam]

dk cargo throws, captain falcon uthrow, sheik d/bthrow, etc. etc.

 

[SunJester]

Yeah, I know its a bit unfair to just call it cheesy. It crossed me as being a move that might create balance issues with Fox and other Fast-Fallers. That being said I would like to see how other FF characters deal with the move/matchup, and if there was any way around or out of the chain-grab or at the very least opening it up to discussion.

I do think his D-throw super fun to use though.

 

[JOE!]

Figure I'd throw my 2 cents out there.

For some clarification, I think that there isn't really an "ordered" tier list at the moment as much as there are just a couple of "tiers" of character where everyone in said tier is more or less equal given the huge MU spreads. For example, say Character A has X good Mu's and Y bad ones, while Character B has the same amount of good/bad, but against different characters, is one really better than the other? Especially if multiple characters are like that?

Anyway, in descending order:

ABOVE AVERAGE

Characters in this tier are above the "norm" in terms of raw ability at this current point in the metagame. They are the most adaptable to most any given situation, and / or have tools to offset weaknesses to the point of making said weaknesses more or less mitigated with good play. Granted, they are not far and beyond the rest of the cast, but often have a couple edges in their favor in any given Match-Up atop their adaptability.


AVERAGE

Characters in this tier are what it says on the tin: Average. Perfectly capable of winning matches and even tournies regularly in the right hands, they are kept from the upper tier by not being as adaptable or not having as pronounced means of overcoming weakness/pushing a strength to make them truly stand out. That said, they all seem to be perfect where they are now.


BELOW AVERAGE

Characters in this tier are more or less like the ones in "Average", but have a problem or two that keep them down nowadays. Be it they aren't as adaptable or simply have too big of a weakness to them that haunts a large chunk of Match-Ups, at the present time they are still plenty viable but simply need to work harder than the other guys.

*Another thing about some is that while they may have amazing reps, the character still doesn't seem up to par, which raises flags for me personally (if they even have an amazing rep to their name at this moment in time).


NEED HELP

These guys are held back in some fundamentally harsh ways. Between horrid neutral games, too much focus on certain moves (thus polarization) and the like, these 5 currently seem sub par compared to everyone else in terms of top potential.