Tier List Speculation

["Shion"]

YO BOI SHION, DOE.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ice climbers are bad yo. No wobbles? Acceptable. More dysnc? Acceptable. No hand offs? No chain grab?? Unacceptable. One or the other woulda been fine. If more IC players were on this game, they would have retained a little bit more from their melee form.
The only chain grabs they have, that I know of, is the dair chain grab and I think fair chain grab? I think you can just SDi away to get out of them both. I know you can for the dair one.

 

[didds]

I'd say that ness and luigi are at least below average on your list, and I'd also say that lucas and maybe wolf might be in above average tier.

A good amount of average and below average seems pretty interchangeable to me. Like all of the heavies in below average, is their glaring weakness their size for the most part?

Actually, outta curiosity, what's the major weakness you'd list for each of the below averagers?

 

[Hylian]

Ice climbers are bad yo. No wobbles? Acceptable. More dysnc? Acceptable. No hand offs? No chain grab?? Unacceptable. One or the other woulda been fine. If more IC players were on this game, they would have retained a little bit more from their melee form.
The only chain grabs they have, that I know of, is the dair chain grab and I think fair chain grab? I think you can just SDi away to get out of them both. I know you can for the dair one.

Nah you are are just uninformed. Ic's have some weird chaingrabs in PM that I don't really have time to explain because I'm about to go to work for 13 hours but yeah. Also they can do handoffs.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Nah you are are just uninformed. Ic's have some weird chaingrabs in PM that I don't really have time to explain because I'm about to go to work for 13 hours but yeah. Also they can do handoffs.

Where DA videos
TAHST ALL I NEED
-runs to IC disc with tail between legs
Better not be, hand off to nana and no more hand off

 

[Plum]

I know they can do Melee-like handoffs for sure, where you use the fact that Nana's AI always throws a certain direction when you are by the ledge.
And unlike Melee the ledge handoffs are infinite in PM iirc.
And from Hylian's post it sounds like they have other stuff?
I'm like a majority of people here and uninformed about the IC's because zero people around me play them in PM.

 

[didds]

ICs are simply swell, I say top tier.

I mean, there'z two of them, kinda cheating in my opinion

 

[Iceman]

Ice climbers are bad yo. No wobbles? Acceptable. More dysnc? Acceptable. No hand offs? No chain grab?? Unacceptable. One or the other woulda been fine. If more IC players were on this game, they would have retained a little bit more from their melee form.
The only chain grabs they have, that I know of, is the dair chain grab and I think fair chain grab? I think you can just SDi away to get out of them both. I know you can for the dair one.

The Ice Climbers are still an incomplete character. Hylian told us that there is still a problem with the handoffs. It is hard to consistently get the Popo regrab. So we are waiting for that to get fixed.

 

[XXXX1000]

whomever said Ness needs help needs to start watching some videos of some better Ness players (like awestin)

I mean, not saying Ness is top tier or anything, but he is def not in the same state as Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Luigi right now

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The Ice Climbers are still an incomplete character. Hylian told us that there is still a problem with the handoffs. It is hard to consistently get the Popo regrab. So we are waiting for that to get fixed.

Any ideas on they are suppose to work in this game?

 

[DMG]

whomever said Ness needs help needs to start watching some videos of some better Ness players (like awestin)

I mean, not saying Ness is top tier or anything, but he is def not in the same state as Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Luigi right now

I dunno about "help" per se, but Ness probably should get a Neutral that isn't so reliant on 1-2 choices.

 

[Terotrous]

whomever said Ness needs help needs to start watching some videos of some better Ness players (like awestin)

I mean, not saying Ness is top tier or anything, but he is def not in the same state as Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and Luigi right now

I think you can definitely say the same thing about Luigi. Seriously, how many people here have ever seen a Luigi on stream? He's such an uncommon pick that everyone thinks he sucks, but when a player like Vist uses him he looks perfectly viable.

You also might even be able to make the same case for Ganon as he's also pretty rare on stream. The exception is clearly Jiggs, as we have plenty of stream footage of the best Jiggs player getting bodied by what are clearly unwinnable matchups.

 

[Iceman]

Any ideas on they are suppose to work in this game?

They do have some cool grab combos in PM, and desync traps/setups are really useful. Their attacks are still really strong, so I think they are still a great character. The hard part is learning how to play all the matchups. Some matchups seem to dictate aggressive or defensive play. I think the Ice Climbers only need time to learn how protect themselves in PM. After that I think you all will be surprised. I honestly think that they are the hardest character to play in the game.

 

[Ace55]

They do have some cool grab combos in PM, and desync traps/setups are really useful. Their attacks are still really strong, so I think they are still a great character. The hard part is learning how to play all the matchups. Some matchups seem to dictate aggressive or defensive play. I think the Ice Climbers only need time to learn how protect themselves in PM. After that I think you all will be surprised. I honestly think that they are the hardest character to play in the game.

Dude your text color is making my eyes bleed. But I agree it's too early to say much about the viability of such a complex character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dude your text color is making my eyes bleed. But I agree it's too early to say much about the viability of such a complex character.

Just turn off the ability to see custom text colors like I have.

 

["Shion"]

YO. BOI. SHION, DOEEEEE

 

[Tomacawk]

wish people would stop discussing and thinking for themselves and just listen to m2k
i'm sure you're all intelligent and capable individuals but he's the ****in king for a reason and his smash opinions are typically real as **** and unbiased

 

[Stake]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

 

[NisforSmash]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

Yes. Toon Link is one of the worst characters.
You should also stay away from ic's and ganondorf because they were nerfed from melee and in the new pm environment they suck.

Spoiler

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

Use Tink.
A tier list in a game like PM is no where near as demanding as a tier list in Brawl or Melee. You can still win and do well with "bad" characters.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

Toon Link's placement is the biggest reason everyone in this thread crapped all over the CT Tier list.

 

[CyberZixx]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

Toon Link is a really cool character who wreck if you play him well. If you want to play him, go for it.

 

[Deleted member]

Joke opinion: bottom 5
Real opinion: Toonlink is around ~15 ish on the tier list. I don't think I'd ever make a real tier list, I'd just put estimates of where I'd put people.

 

[Axxo]

I tried to do better at Whobo 6, next time tho Im tryna show Dk's true potential..

My combo vid coming soon...

 

[1FD]

Joke opinion: bottom 5
Real opinion: Toonlink is around ~15 ish on the tier list. I don't think I'd ever make a real tier list, I'd just put estimates of where I'd put people.

TL in the top half and possibly top third?
With so many characters pushing for the top half I wouldn't put him on the top of that list of POSSIBLE TOP HALF characters but totally possible for sure
Still wouldn't consider him more likely for it than others with that POSSIBLE thing
This game is close...... the middle closeness is HAWT

 

[Bryonato]

Is toon link really that bad, I was excited too use him, but hes bottom of the tier list, so I haven't done too much with him yet...

This is why I ****ing hate that CT made a "tier list" because you have newer players that see it as fact and are scared of using chars near the bottom.

Tink is IMO a really solid mid/mid-high tier that has godlike offense and a really versatile kit. Play him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

People riding Link's Master Sword and thinking Tink is trash is why I can't take the average person in this community seriously.

 

[1FD]

real bottom 5 is
link mario diddy fox and someoneelsepeoplecomplainaboutbeingtoogood

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

People riding Link's Master Sword and thinking Tink is trash is why I can't take the average person in this community seriously.

I'm so above the average joe.

 

[G13_Flux]

im surprised that everyone thinks mario is so high on the list. link too. i think both of them sit in high tier, but certainly not top. mario just happens to be one of the easiest characters to do well with, so you see a lot of people reaching good skill levels with him quickly that makes you think hes better than he probably is, at least in relation to other characters that dont have people playing them at as high of a level yet.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why is DJ Nintendo crucifying DP's Falco with Bowser

In Melee

 

[JOE!]

I'd say that ness and luigi are at least below average on your list, and I'd also say that lucas and maybe wolf might be in above average tier.

For Ness and Luigi, the former is overly reliant on PK Fire from what I could see and the other I simply have 0 experience with whatsoever which leads me to believe something is up with him in this game that causes luigi to be so unpopular / less known. Lucas and Wolf are both great characters, at the time I made the list (a month or two ago) I had them at Average and that is a leftover from my thoughts lol.

A good amount of average and below average seems pretty interchangeable to me. Like all of the heavies in below average, is their glaring weakness their size for the most part?

Average and Below average (maybe even Above Average with some characters) being interchangeable is a good thing IMO, as it is a testament to the balance overall. The BA folks simply have a rougher time in more MU's due to a small flaw.

As you pointed out, the heavies are all brought down by their size due to the huge amount of projectile users in the game, something they have real trouble dealing with on average. In a meta saturated with projectile users, being a big target is a hindrance. That doesn't mean they are "bad", just that they have to usually work harder.

Actually, outta curiosity, what's the major weakness you'd list for each of the below averagers?

As I stated before, the following characters are not -bad-, but rather just slightly below the norm.

General size and vulnerability to grabs, which many of the better characters have very favorable things out of (see: Lucas with how 3/4 throws lead to a kill or kill outright). Combined with the odd nerfs here and there to him, he just doesnt have as many favorable MUs or even 50/50's as he should. Due to his sheer size/weight, he gets a special mention compared to the other heavies.
With more mobile characters that can keep up with him, along with more relevant disjointed characters, Falcon's weaknesses seem slightly more prominent this time around.
Mostly fine, but have a huge thorn in their side when it comes to projectile users thanks to their size making it easy to shoot at them in ways other characters can just avoid. It's easy to wall them away with some of the more "spammy" projectiles and really dictate how they play in some MUs.
Haven't seen much of him except Nintendude, but in general it seems like he has to commit a lot more to get going than other characters for similar effect, while then being much frailer if opened up.
Having to restock pikmin, and then having them be randomized, and then having your recovery potentially screwed by what appears to be the RNG gods is really keeping this character back.
Pikachu is kinda like a "worse Fox", he has a similar archetype to him but in general seems to not have the "cannon" to back up the "glass", though his recovery is awesome. Maybe he is just underexposed?
Roy's stage presence doesn't seem to make up for his nonexistent offstage game and lackluster recovery.
Samus I have little experience with, but going by what I've seen she simply seems to just have trouble keeping up in more MUs than she goes even / excels at. Not sure where to place her really, but from my personal views she seems to be below average.
Squirtle has a terrible time trying to get KOs, and has a really weird learning curve with Side B being so emphasized yet so.... bad to just "toss out". To me it seems like if he had a smidge easier time converting KOs outside of later % Dthrow or such he'd be much better off.


All my personal opinions.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

"Ness is overly reliant on PK Fire"

"Ike is overly reliant on Quick Draw"

"Fox is overly reliant on Shine"

"Falcon is overly reliant on Knee"

Having one really good tool that you need to use a lot =/= inherent weakness

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

And whose Fox is Sethlon going to have to beat to convince you he isn't low tier.

I'm not saying he's the second coming of N64 Pikachu but the dude can compete just fine and has a match up-spread not much worse than Marth's. Mid. Easy.

 

[MLGF]

While I don't think Roy is low tier, one player does not make a low tier character not low tier.
If it were, then Mewtwo could be better in Melee's meta, because M2K and Taj could beat pretty much everyone below top 30ish with their Mewtwo's.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Fair. I've said that myself several times. I'm not advocating that Sethlon's performance with Roy is sufficient, but it is certainly illustrative of the mayhem he is capable of. It's like M2K said at Polybash, anyone with a sword can wreck face in this game. It sounds overly simplistic but it's honestly kind of true.

 

[XXXX1000]

I feel like you might be conflating "performs well" with "being a good character". Sethlon is a good player. He makes incredible reads, he rarely makes mistakes, he's very quick and intelligent. I feel like Sethlon playing any character would make that character appear strong. Sethlon wins with fundamentals and smart play and you have to be sure to separate that from the character.

 

[NickRiddle]

Why is DJ Nintendo crucifying DP's Falco with Bowser

In Melee

Because DP's apparently terrible.

 

[DMG]

"Ness is overly reliant on PK Fire"

"Ike is overly reliant on Quick Draw"

"Fox is overly reliant on Shine"

"Falcon is overly reliant on Knee"

Having one really good tool that you need to use a lot =/= inherent weakness

It's not a weakness if your character can play around instances where the option probably isn't viable. The problem with Ness is that so much power is tossed into PK fire and into grabbing, that it doesn't make sense to hold back on those options and attempt other stuff in Neutral.

Ike has a lot he could do in Neutral besides QD (he has a big meaty sword that loves to hit many different angles). Fox can run around and Laser. Falcon (while fairly linear and limited in his own right) can opt to play decently strong DD/Dash options. Ness does not generally have other things that make as much sense, or that end up being just as effective.

And whose Fox is Sethlon going to have to beat to convince you he isn't low tier.

I'm not saying he's the second coming of N64 Pikachu but the dude can compete just fine and has a match up-spread not much worse than Marth's. Mid. Easy.

Having a decent MU with Fox is one thing, but he has some struggles. It's very obvious he has a problem with DK, and while he's a tad better at dealing with CCing characters, that's traditionally been a thorn in his side. PM isn't going to be huge on "Ok I got an even MU with Fox, so I'm secured in top tier". PM is going to be about "Can I go up against the general cast, and not have too many bad MU's?".

The general cast is MONSTROUS at handing out very bad MU's back and forth. You really have to watch your back in this game.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The general cast is MONSTROUS at handing out very bad MU's back and forth. You really have to watch your back in this game.

Ain't that why we love this game though?