Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Ya, people got stiff wood over giving the opponent 0 options

 

[NickRiddle]

Its not enough to make fox or falco unviable, and she still struggles against characters like icies and puff debatably. The top tier characters she beats lose to her mainly because theyre worse than her anyway (marth peach and falcon) and you cant really count mid or low tiers since theyre already disadvantaged. Saying that sheiks d throw is responsibile for making most characters bad is the same as saying that marths fair does the same thing. Just because they destroy characters that lack options to beat or compensate for it doesnt make it itself is responsibile for breaking MUs. If people really think its as bad as everyone says then they should put it up for subject testing, its avoidable if you dont get grabbed and i dont personally believe it will matter too much against a cast where the strongest characters in the game are all near or slightly above fox like diddy kong.

Except Sheik CGs about half the cast to death... Which makes them 100% unviable because a pocket Sheik can do a CG that braindead.

 

[Mr.Random]

The biggest thing (to me) about buffing Jiggly's Sing is that her current moveset is just terrible from a game design standpoint so the focus shouldn't even be on making the current one good, it should be reworking it altogether. She is focused on removing the opponent's ability to do anything, which is not a good design. It just so happens that she used to be good at it in Melee but sucks at it here, so people wan to help her, but to be honest I don't think her current moveset deserves any help at all, I think it should die. The second biggest thing is that buffing Sing simply turns her matchups into "she beats those that she can easily land it on, and loses to those she can't" which is polarizing and not very fun and also not good design.

and I see tons of people putting Sheik in top tiers and saying "wow does Sheik really need more options" but she also wasn't changed very much from Melee apart from her throws which are mostly considered a nerf. She still has *** recovery, a solid combo game but her kill moves don't kill as easily as they used to, needles don't get kills for her offstage as easily as they used to. Why do people still see her as dominant?

I honestly think redesigning Puff would be a good move. She's outclassed and just an extremely polarizing character.

 

[Luigimanski64]

Except Sheik CGs about half the cast to death... Which makes them 100% unviable because a pocket Sheik can do a CG that braindead.

Dr mario and mario both chaingrab a majority of the cast as well, and on the ones that they dont they get free follow ups on every character since they have two purely vertical throws with adjustable heights, and all of that applies to pm as well.

Wait... Sheik is LESS fun to play now that she isn't centralized on an incredibly degenerate d-throw...?

I would agree with you, but since we see people enjoying characters like ivysaur zelda and diddy i wouldnt judge the sheik players

 

[Mera Mera]

I'm just saying that her literal tip of the foot should be like that, seeing as I haven't seen a meteor on her yet. Of course, the timing of the attack would be similar to Falcon's Knee Smash, which is on a few specific frames, if not one.

But to compensate this, the aerial could be more laggy on both air and ground, to nerf her a bit. Now who agrees on this?

I don't think people understand that Sheik isn't actually bad. She's at worst top 10 (not counting Zelda as part of her). I think that this change would be kinda neat, but I don't see a redesign happening any time soon. Plus if it was laggy it'd be less useful as a combo move (it's only use now other than maybe a tech chase).

Sheik needs something. I don't know what it is exactly, but there's something just sort of missing that keeps her much further down than she wants to be compared to many of her Melee partners-in-crime.

Sheik is good. She's not dominant in neutral, but she's pretty dominant in every other way. She's kinda boring imo, so I'll grant you that much.

If i got shot by a laser I think id be saying more than "oh 1% ok"

Just give her back her d throw. She wasnt even op with it so idk why youd get rid of it. Besides more characters get free things off of grabs in this game that sheik ever did

d-throw was a large part of the reason the low tiers were low tier. Certain weight/fall speed combinations got 0-deathed by her d-throw (or close enough for it to be gg). Her old d-throw was good but not OP in SOME match ups, but it was far too polarizing of a move.

 

[DMG]

Mario/Doc don't have as abusable of a grab range, or a strong dash to threaten run up grabs. They also increased the scaling on Mario's Dthrow in PM IIRC, so true CG's should not last as long as they did in Melee for him.

 

[Luigimanski64]

Mario/Doc don't have as abusable of a grab range, or a strong dash to threaten run up grabs. They also increased the scaling on Mario's Dthrow in PM IIRC, so true CG's should not last as long as they did in Melee for him.

Where is the changelist for pm and why isnt it someplace where people can see? And i mean changes from melee or brawl, not just through versions. It would make arguing about this much less complicated. Also theres no saying that sheiks dthrow couldnt have been scaled up as well, and instead they took the route of having sheiks throws be as useless as falcos if the di predicting is incorrect, which is actually a huge disadvantage compared to her melee version, and i dont think the pmbr was aware of how much that would hurt her overrall. Theres Less regrabs, tech chases and followups, even if the sheik guesses correctly, making her new throws even more than just 50% worse than in melee. M2k was on to something when he claimed sheik was far worse in pm yet people are stubborn and love disagreeing with him. I dont think hes nearly as immature or irrational as people like to believe he is.

 

[Mr.Random]

Where is the changelist for pm and why isnt it someplace where people can see? And i mean changes from melee or brawl, not just through versions. It would make arguing about this much less complicated. Also theres no saying that sheiks dthrow couldnt have been scaled up as well, and instead they took the route of having sheiks throws be as useless as falcos if the di predicting is incorrect, which is actually a huge disadvantage compared to her melee version, and i dont think the pmbr was aware of how much that would hurt her overrall. Theres Less regrabs, tech chases and followups, even if the sheik guesses correctly, making her new throws even more than just 50% worse than in melee. M2k was on to something when he claimed sheik was far worse in pm yet people are stubborn and love disagreeing with him. I dont think hes nearly as immature or irrational as people like to believe he is.

It is in a place where you can see it. You're just super late.

 

[Luigimanski64]

It is in a place where you can see it. You're just super late.

And you didnt even try to provide me information on where it is or leave a link. Good job bro youre a true model citizen around here arent you?

Can someone with some decent common courtesy help me out here unlike this snarky fruitcake?

 

[Spralwers]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(PM)

You can pretty much google "(insert character name here) PM" and the first link will generally be their smash wiki page.

 

[mimgrim]

And you didnt even try to provide me information on where it is or leave a link. Good job bro youre a true model citizen around here arent you?

Can someone with some decent common courtesy help me out here unlike this snarky fruitcake?

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-3-02-released-changelog-in-post.345667/

However it shows only from 3.01 to 3.02.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(PM)

You can pretty much google "(insert character name here) PM" and the first link will generally be their smash wiki page.

When it comes to Smash stuff. Wiki is usually super inaccurate. So, yea, not all that reliable.

 

[Luigimanski64]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sheik_(PM)

You can pretty much google "(insert character name here) PM" and the first link will generally be their smash wiki page.

The wiki doesnt everything, and lacks precise data on knockback, hitboxes, and precise character traits like jump height and fall speed relative to other characters. If something including this kind of information has not been prepared for the public then its the fault of the pmbr only for fueling ignorance. And yeah, the changelists on SB only include version changes.

 

[Mera Mera]

Where is the changelist for pm and why isnt it someplace where people can see? And i mean changes from melee or brawl, not just through versions. It would make arguing about this much less complicated. Also theres no saying that sheiks dthrow couldnt have been scaled up as well, and instead they took the route of having sheiks throws be as useless as falcos if the di predicting is incorrect, which is actually a huge disadvantage compared to her melee version, and i dont think the pmbr was aware of how much that would hurt her overrall. Theres Less regrabs, tech chases and followups, even if the sheik guesses correctly, making her new throws even more than just 50% worse than in melee. M2k was on to something when he claimed sheik was far worse in pm yet people are stubborn and love disagreeing with him. I dont think hes nearly as immature or irrational as people like to believe he is.

M2K has some twitch reactions to things sometimes, but I'll agree that he's right about more than people think. That said, his playstyle with Sheik was nerfed hard, but Sheik was not nerfed that hard as a whole.

What you say about Sheik's throws is a common misconception and a large part of the reason she's underestimated.

Sheik d-throws or b-throws
At MOST percents:
- if the person DI's correctly then Sheik can hit them with needles, dash attack, or dash->crouch dsmash (the dsmash option is only completely safe at a smaller percent range).
- if the person doesn't DI or DI's the wrong throw (as a result of the mix up), Sheik can utilt or ftilt which can sometimes lead to a grab and always leads to an aerial, or she can aerial (but why skip the tilts for free extra damage)
At ALL percents:
- if the person DI's correctly Sheik can hit them with needles.
- if the person does not DI or DI's the wrong throw/DI's incorrectly, then Sheik can hit them with any aerial.

Also keep in mind that her dthrow is fast enough where if the grab was a surprise, you will likely fail to DI. Her d-throw was not fast in Melee. This is only the case in PM.

This on top of the fact that she has insane grab range and decent ground speed makes her grab game hardly comparable to Falco's grab game. She still has one of, if not the best grab games. Only Mario and Ganon (and maybe Marth) compare imo.

 

[Mr.Random]

And you didnt even try to provide me information on where it is or leave a link. Good job bro youre a true model citizen around here arent you?

Can someone with some decent common courtesy help me out here unlike this snarky fruitcake?

Hello? I wasn't being snarky I was telling you the truth. It literally says on the top 2 pinned posts "changelog". Pay attention.

 

[Spralwers]

I brought up the link because it does a decent job at addressing this:

And i mean changes from melee or brawl,

And yeah, the changelists on SB only include version changes.

Have you even read the wiki? The FIRST category under attributes is "Changes from Melee to PM."

 

[DMG]

Where is the changelist for pm and why isnt it someplace where people can see? And i mean changes from melee or brawl, not just through versions. It would make arguing about this much less complicated. Also theres no saying that sheiks dthrow couldnt have been scaled up as well, and instead they took the route of having sheiks throws be as useless as falcos if the di predicting is incorrect, which is actually a huge disadvantage compared to her melee version, and i dont think the pmbr was aware of how much that would hurt her overrall. Theres Less regrabs, tech chases and followups, even if the sheik guesses correctly, making her new throws even more than just 50% worse than in melee. M2k was on to something when he claimed sheik was far worse in pm yet people are stubborn and love disagreeing with him. I dont think hes nearly as immature or irrational as people like to believe he is.

M2K's reasons for Sheik being worse off, don't entirely center around nerfed Dthrow. He cited shield pushback as a negative for Sheik for Dsmash on Shields, and for her own OOS gameplay. Along with a few other things

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The problem with Melee high tiers in PM is that they are good by comparison. The best example of this is IC in Brawl. IC are bad against Snake, Diddy Kong, and Peach but because they're good against MK they're considered second best in the game. The Melee high tiers suffer because they were good in Melee by comparison. Sheik can't get needle kills anymore because some character's recoveries are immune to it. This is why I think the Melee high tiers should receive buffs in PM.

 

[Saproling]

Puff is a weird design but I think improving her neutral game some would make more sense before trying an overhaul.I do think roll out should be replaced for sure though.

Shiek does need something but its hard to say what that is I think changing her over B to something useful would be nice, or at least bring back its brawl tether properties.I think giving Shiek some sweetspots on her feet may get out of HAND.I think a side b unique grab would be neat for more grab mixups and maybe possible air grabbing.But that would need a good amount of thought to know if her having an air grab would be too strong.

 

[Mera Mera]

The problem with Melee high tiers in PM is that they are good by comparison. The best example of this is IC in Brawl. IC are bad against Snake, Diddy Kong, and Peach but because they're good against MK they're considered second best in the game. The Melee high tiers suffer because they were good in Melee by comparison. Sheik can't get needle kills anymore because some character's recoveries are immune to it. This is why I think the Melee high tiers should receive buffs in PM.

Sheik and spacies definitely don't have that problem. They weren't just good against the high tiers, they were good against everyone. Marth mostly doesn't have that problem either, though I could see it to some extent. It IS very true for Jiggs though, and possibly Peach and Captain Falcon.

That said, I think Ice Climbers are closer to Melee? So I'm not sure I agree with the example. They did get buffs. I have no idea where they would go on a tier list. I don't think anyone does. I think that because they are hard to use and unpopular, people just put them low by default. They could be high tier in this game for all we know.

 

[mimgrim]

The problem with Melee high tiers in PM is that they are good by comparison. The best example of this is IC in Brawl. IC are bad against Snake, Diddy Kong, and Peach but because they're good against MK they're considered second best in the game.

And it has nothing to do with the fact that they can infinite every single character in the game.

 

[Radical Larry]

And it has nothing to do with the fact that they can infinite every single character in the game.

I always hated that Infinite with a passion. When I try doing it, my opponent always manages to slip out the first throw; when the opponent does it to me, I yell. But then again, I always dodge the finishers. Damn infinite...

The problem with Melee high tiers in PM is that they are good by comparison. The best example of this is IC in Brawl. IC are bad against Snake, Diddy Kong, and Peach but because they're good against MK they're considered second best in the game. The Melee high tiers suffer because they were good in Melee by comparison. Sheik can't get needle kills anymore because some character's recoveries are immune to it. This is why I think the Melee high tiers should receive buffs in PM.

Well, the Melee High Tiers did receive buffs. It's just that the Melee Low Tiers received much more, with Link having the best ratio of Buffs|Nerfs.

I don't think people understand that Sheik isn't actually bad. She's at worst top 10 (not counting Zelda as part of her). I think that this change would be kinda neat, but I don't see a redesign happening any time soon. Plus if it was laggy it'd be less useful as a combo move (it's only use now other than maybe a tech chase).

Well, if we compare it to Marth's D-air, it would work practically the same as that. L-Cancelling is a benefactor with Sheik's D-air, and would reduce the lag by a substantial means. This would still make her good for combo games even if the attack is a bit laggier and it meteors at the tip of the feet.

I never actually mentioned, but I meant it should come out slower and the landing lag should be more affected.

 

[Luigimanski64]

Hello? I wasn't being snarky I was telling you the truth. It literally says on the top 2 pinned posts "changelog". Pay attention.

I brought up the link because it does a decent job at addressing this:



Have you even read the wiki? The FIRST category under attributes is "Changes from Melee to PM."

I already said that the stuff on SB is versional and that the wiki leaves things out, especially precise information. Not having this information hurts discussion as a whole. If you two didnt catch that in my earlier post then you two need to pay a little more attention.

 

[woundedust]

Maybe changings sheik d throw to pure tech chase option would help. Its like shes carried over from melee, but doesnt get free CGs on every character in the game

Perhaps change up b to pikachu esque? Give it a double poof, but make both poofs shorter? And decrease ending lag a little?

 

[Radical Larry]

Maybe changings sheik d throw to pure tech chase option would help. Its like shes carried over from melee, but doesnt get free CGs on every character in the game

Maybe add the benefit of the Meteor Smash alongside, probably?

 

[woundedust]

Maybe add the benefit of the Meteor Smash alongside, probably?

You are riding this meteor

 

[Radical Larry]

You are riding this meteor

Yes, yes I am, but nevermore.

 

[Terotrous]

On Puff:

I feel the number one problem with Puff is Rest. Rest is such an absurdly strong move that it forces Puff to be weak in other areas to maintain any semblance of balance. For example, suppose we wanted to give Puff better throw followups off DThrow. It'd be a nice buff, but we can't do that because she could probably get guaranteed combos into Rest on some characters, and that means a OHKO off a throw which is a definite no-no. Similarly we can't buff Sing for the same reason. This is very lopsided character design, and it results in her being generally one-dimensional and having a lot of bad matchups.

Beyond Rest, Puff is basically a footsie character. She does it from the air, but it doesn't really change much, basically she spends most of her time bobbing in and out and throwing pokes. This is a totally fine character archetype, all fighting games have a bunch of them and they're usually viable. The main problem with Puff specifically that her special moves don't compliment her footsies at all, and her raw footsies are matched or outclassed by a few other characters. Sing and Rest only work when she gets in (and both are extremely risky, which doesn't mesh well with her awful defense), Pound is mostly useful as a recovery technique, it's not as good in footsies as Fair and Bair, and Rollout is just a bad move in general. Improving some of these moves would help a ton with Puff's overall versatility, but in most cases we can't because we're constrained by Rest.

I think the number 1 thing to do to fix Puff is revert Rest's kill power to Brawl or maybe Smash 64. It can still be powerful but no more OHKOs, that's just not good design. You might consider slightly increasing the hitbox on it to make up for that nerf. Afterwards, we can look at improving her other moves some. One idea I just had is allowing her to store Rollout, akin to Charge Shot / Giant Punch / etc. This would make it WAY more useful, and would create an incentive for other people to go in against Puff (allowing her to do footsies) to prevent her from charging it. I'd also like to see a few overall combo improvements, like one person suggested adjusting ftilt to allow a follow-up on hit, akin to Yoshi. Perhaps we could also make Uthrow recover a little faster, allowing a more reliable Uair afterwards against floaties, or do something with DThrow. There's all kinds of options available when we don't have to worry about "OMG Rest too stronk!"

 

[Axrz]

Can we change this thread back to tier list speculation, rather than who needs to be buffed?

 

[didds]

Who is better, Yoshi or ROB?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Can we change this thread back to tier list speculation, rather than who needs to be buffed?

I'll buff you

Who is better, Yoshi or ROB?

Red Yoshi.

 

[SixSaw]

Who is better, Yoshi or ROB?

ROB

 

[Saproling]

Who is better, Yoshi or ROB?

ROB

 

[Soft Serve]

Sheik being the reason a lot of characters are low tier in Melee is a pretty big misconception/over-generalization imo. Yeah, sheik has a stupid punish game on most of the cast, but where she was over bearing against worse characters was her ability to shut out options in the neutral game. She also struggled against some characters that were worse than her, Like getting chaingrabbed by Sopo forever and getting "soft countered" (according to DJ Nintendo) by mario. Bad Characters are bad in melee because spacies **** on them, most low teirs don't have the mobility or OoS options to deal with them at all. for example, GnW can't even shield high falco lasers because his shield is that bad. Shiek does like 100-0 Bowser, but so do fox/falco/marth. Marth even has some low tier MU's that aren't that much in his favor, like roy (~60/40) and Yoshi(~55-45/60-40, stage dependent).

Spacies are the real gatekeepers in melee imo.

Back to PM though, I used to think everyone did shiek's job better than her but honestly I don't know anymore. She's really good.

I think my top 10 now is like, no particular order, Lucas/mario/shiek(shielda)/fox/mewtwo/MK/wolf/falco/pit/ivy, with marth/Diddy/Olimar/Snake really close.

 

[didds]

everyone is trippin, Yoshi is a baller. Plays to win.

well except you @ Hinichii.ez.™ you know what's up

but purps is even better

 

[Ali Baba 177]

It has been a while since I last put out the community tier list survey and more tournaments have happened and opinions changed. Here is the community vote #3 below, if you have 5 or so minutes in your day then itd be awesome if you could fill this out with your opinion. This way I can try to keep track of Smashboards Community opinion and try to combine with more tournament results to create a new tier speculation list! Ill be working on it for a week or so maybe more as there has been a ton of tournaments.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RWGZZVB

Thanks for your time!

 

[Empyrean]

Can we change this thread back to tier list speculation, rather than who needs to be buffed?

As far as I've known, this thread has always been the perfect place to voice your complaints and buff demands. People posting their tier lists only further fuel the requests and ridiculous suggestions.

 

[MLGF]

It has been a while since I last put out the community tier list survey and more tournaments have happened and opinions changed. Here is the community vote #3 below, if you have 5 or so minutes in your day then itd be awesome if you could fill this out with your opinion. This way I can try to keep track of Smashboards Community opinion and try to combine with more tournament results to create a new tier speculation list! Ill be working on it for a week or so maybe more as there has been a ton of tournaments.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RWGZZVB

Thanks for your time!

How on earth do I view the results?

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Shiek is still really good in PM. I had her as 7th on my tier list. Sheik is a character that is very flexible and thus does not really get countered by a lot. So she has a great match up spread and the stage list affects her opponents more than her. Her throw game is still really good, I don't know why people feel it is so much worse now. You can always get something from it and her bthrow now allows her to be even more threatening standing back to a ledge.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

How on earth do I view the results?

Haha I dont think you can apparently,, Ill post them in a week or so!

 

[Bryonato]

Haha I dont think you can apparently,, Ill post them in a week or so!

you should spend less time on the tier list and more time posting videos of how beast your lucario is