Tier List Speculation

[Scuba Steve]

Actually, the aerial hitboxes are because stunned opponents are considered airborne. If ground-only grabboxes would grab paralyzed opponents her grab would probably function similar to others.

I always like seeing Strong Bad droppin' knowledge.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

I always like seeing Strong Bad droppin' knowledge.

If only that was the only thing he dropped.

 

[KayB]

After some S@X and WD Wednesday, I'm convinced Diddy Kong has about an evenish match up with Wolf if not favorable and possibly 45-55 versus Fox (in Fox's favor) if not even. Diddy Kong can easily destroy/0-death the spacies, and Diddy's weight makes him heard to KO and combo. He's fast and relatively small, making him a bit trickier to combo compared to most of the cast, and his weight requires Fox to thunders in a Shine combo if I'm not mistaken (I have to double check). His bananas have fantastic stage control and he's decent at edgeguarding thanks to his aerials and up-b. He has absolutely disgusting KO potential and like I mentioned earlier an amazing (not to mention easy) combo game against spacies. And he has the results to show it. DLA has beaten Scythe on occasion and Chillindude has lost to both Seagull and Boss at S@X.

 

[Oracle]

ppl forget that lucas' grab is a pretty big commitment, and also fairly slow. The dash grab is slow enough to react to if you're quick, and roll away will still get you a huge punish if spotdodge doesn't work. also you can usually spotdodge lucas' grab, its just harder to time. grab is active for like 15 frames and most spotdodges are active for more than that.( you can never spotdodge his grab with a tier 1 dodge like diddy has though). I actually end up not using the dash grab at all anymore outside of mistakes because of how insanely risky it is. it makes sense that a character with a not so great grab would get good punishes off of it

another reason that lucas' dash grab seems so amazing is how bad the animation looks. its got 14 frames of startup, but you wouldn't know that because he puts the snake out before the active frames, THEN the active frames start, THEN the active frames end WITHOUT him putting the snake away! its totally arbitrary, makes the move really gimmicky and non intuitive, and has been my biggest gripe about lucas for like 2 years.

holy god whenever i talk about stuff like this i get reminded how super ultra broken lucas would be if he had a regular 7 frame grab lmao

 

[JOE!]

Seriously, can we get a 3.03 with Nayru's Love and Lucas' Grab having fixed animations that actually show when the hell they're active?

 

[Bryonato]

Actually, we were trying to have an actual discussion on him and ask well-informed people to contribute but you can totally generalize and attempt to shut down any kind of actual discourse with a blanket statement, sure.

See, there are both characters with few weaknesses and overall near-universal toolkits mixed in with characters with extremely polarized kits that don't work in a good chunk of MUs. A big part of tier listing is going to be figuring out if that's okay. Since most of the considered tops tend to be the former kind ... I'm not sure.

yeah i can see when I'm wrong. My b guys.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

People don't know but I'm with Oracle, sometimes I wish I had a normal grab. sure he'd he insanely broken but it'd he nice. but yeah dash grab isn't free at all and doing it by mistake SUCKS. I usuaully ho for it when I need to (PK Freeze follow-up) as a punish or if I think someone will spot dodge. Lucas has been nerfed in the past so I'm interested where the PMBR will make future changes Roll away is the best answer if you see a grab coming or think one is coming it's way easy to punish on whiff

 

[Saproling]

ppl forget that lucas' grab is a pretty big commitment, and also fairly slow. The dash grab is slow enough to react to if you're quick, and roll away will still get you a huge punish if spotdodge doesn't work. also you can usually spotdodge lucas' grab, its just harder to time. grab is active for like 15 frames and most spotdodges are active for more than that.( you can never spotdodge his grab with a tier 1 dodge like diddy has though). I actually end up not using the dash grab at all anymore outside of mistakes because of how insanely risky it is. it makes sense that a character with a not so great grab would get good punishes off of it

Wouldn't the roll away then punish vary from character to character? I get what you're saying but I don't think every character can get a HUGE punish off of it.

 

[KayB]

I'd like to try out a build where ZSS has a normal grab. Not permanent, but I'd like to see how it'd work and all. Even just a video would be nice.

 

[NisforSmash]

I'd like to try out a build where ZSS has a normal grab. Not permanent, but I'd like to see how it'd work and all. Even just a video would be nice.

Conversely i'd like to play a build wheres sheiks grab is her chain.

 

[Oracle]

Wouldn't the roll away then punish vary from character to character? I get what you're saying but I don't think every character can get a HUGE punish off of it.

It varies, but 54 frames of cooldown is pretty huge. Even characters with mediocre rolls can get a better punish than they would spotdodging a normal grab

 

[G13_Flux]

While Lucas s grab is a big commitment, he does have ways to set up into it, so it's still not too difficult to get grabs. He does get a ton of reward off it as well, and when you combine that with his great speed, mobility, pressure game, and great kill set ups (as well as extremely early killing finishers), you get a really solid character, which is definitely why most put Lucas somewhere around the top tier if not at least high. Regardless of his strengths though, I don't think he's OP. He obviously has sub par survivability, and some if his kill set ups can take some finesse to land (dair has like 0 horizontal range,grabs are more reliable when set up into instead of approaching with them).

Also, while Lucas is good in neutral, you still have a some leeway when facing him since most of his quick attacks lack range, and his projectile isn't as quick and lagless such as things like falcos lasers and mario fireballs. Overall a great character. His upthrow may be a tad too powerful, but the rest of his design fits the game perfectly

 

[ELI-mination]

Eli's proven you can play him at a high level and compete really well. At Apex, he sort of choked against gah-faced-killah Mew2king. That was moreso Eli playing poorly (i'm sure he'd agree) than the character getting countered badly or anything.

Yea I was playing bad, I completely agree.
However, I still think Fox is a horrible matchup for DK. It comes down to DK having to land a grab and literally never messing up. Which I mess up a lot. Because I'm, you know, human.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm sure DMG would yell at me about CC or SDI if saw my post about Lucas' weaknesses.

On that note, isn't Side-B a good anti-CC option for Lucario?

 

[Spiffykins]

People don't know but I'm with Oracle, sometimes I wish I had a normal grab. sure he'd he insanely broken but it'd he nice. but yeah dash grab isn't free at all and doing it by mistake SUCKS. I usuaully ho for it when I need to (PK Freeze follow-up) as a punish or if I think someone will spot dodge. Lucas has been nerfed in the past so I'm interested where the PMBR will make future changes Roll away is the best answer if you see a grab coming or think one is coming it's way easy to punish on whiff

Some things about Lucas may have been nerfed, but back air is way more than good enough to make up for it so I don't really think it counts.

I'm sure DMG would yell at me about CC or SDI if saw my post about Lucas' weaknesses.

On that note, isn't Side-B a good anti-CC option for Lucario?

It's way too slow for that.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Bairs in this game in general are like OP

 

[Scuba Steve]

"also you can usually spotdodge lucas' grab, its just harder to time. grab is active for like 15 frames and most spotdodges are active for more than that.( you can never spotdodge his grab with a tier 1 dodge like diddy has though)"
-Oracle

While agree with a lot of other stuff you said, I couldn't help but notice that 15 frames still seems like a pretty crazy amount of active frames on a grab. A lot of spotdodges are around 20 frames of intangibility and the fact that you can spotdodge around 6 frames before the active frames come out and still get grabbed seems a bit weird.

Had to use dumb formatting because I messed up in hitting the reply button somehow.

 

[JOE!]

There any listing of "grab durations"?

 

[Ripple]

all non-tethers standing grabs last 2 frames

all non-tether pivot and dash grabs last 2 or 3.

 

[JOE!]

Ok... so do any of the tethers last as long as Lucas'?

 

[Scuba Steve]

all non-tethers standing grabs last 2 frames

all non-tether pivot and dash grabs last 2 or 3.

Do you know some of the other tether grabs that we could compare Lucas's to?

 

[Soft Serve]

@Hylian didnt you have a list of grabs from when arguing with m2k about teather grab punishes? I would dig it up for the thread but im on mobile

 

[Axrz]

Not Hylian but

http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-313#post-16546526

 

[didds]

Lucas
Standing - Total: 56, Grab: 11-14, 15-16
Pivot - Total: 48, Grab: 14-18
Dash - Total: 79, Grab: 15-17, 18-27

for those too lazy too look, also not sure if it's up to date

 

[Bryonato]

Yea I was playing bad, I completely agree.
However, I still think Fox is a horrible matchup for DK. It comes down to DK having to land a grab and literally never messing up. Which I mess up a lot. Because I'm, you know, human.

I thought you were gahlike.
My whole life is a lie.

Ok... so do any of the tethers last as long as Lucas'?

all i know is Lucas' is the only grab I can remember spot dodging and still getting grabbed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So it looks like Wes picked up Charizard, and promptly caused D1 to be very salty about Charizard on stream >.< He's pretty beastly. Moon and DJ Nintendo also picked up TL and Ike respectively, pretty recently.

Boy, Melee players that are trying PM sure don't seem to care to continue with their old mains. I wonder if it's okay to tweak them.

Hint, hint.

 

[SixSaw]

all non-tethers standing grabs last 2 frames

all non-tether pivot and dash grabs last 2 or 3.

Not completely true.
Zelda's standing grab lasts 3 frames. There may be other exceptions.

 

[Seagull Joe]

My Tier list Opinion (I had some difficulty deciding who would be 3rd between and . I feel like either of these characters could be 3rd):
S tier:
1.
2.

A tier:
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.

B tier:
12,
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.

C tier:
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.

D tier:
32.
33.
34.
35.
36.
37.
38.

E tier:
39.
40.
41.
42.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Previously, on Smash at Xanadu

 

[Strong Badam]

dk 34th aww yeahh im godlike

 

[CyberZixx]

Why is Ness so high?

 

[Rᴏb]

PK Fire isn't that good...

 

[NeonApophis]

Lucas
Standing - Total: 56, Grab: 11-14, 15-16
Pivot - Total: 48, Grab: 14-18
Dash - Total: 79, Grab: 15-17, 18-27

for those too lazy too look, also not sure if it's up to date

Only 52 frames of endlag? Sounds pretty broken and unpunishable to me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

My Tier list Opinion (I had some difficulty deciding who would be 3rd between and . I feel like either of these characters could be 3rd):
Wrong stuff

Fix'd

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fox/falco in a tier by themselves is kind silly tbh lol
Especially falco being that far above everyone else

 

[KuroganeHammer]

wtf is ness doing up there

GET DOWN TO D TIER THIS INSTANT, YOUNG MAN

*crosses arms*

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

Dat Ness in top 10

Dat Sheilda

Dat Yoshi being 3rd worst character OH COME ON

 

[shairn]

Why is Sheilda even there, and above both Zelda and Sheik on top of that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why is Sheilda even there, and above both Zelda and Sheik on top of that.

Sheilda is always better than Zelda or Sheik because it assumes the most efficient use of the two characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheilda is always better than Zelda or Sheik because it assumes the most efficient use of the two characters.

shielda is aways worse than both sheik or zelda because switching off of the better skill set at any point makes you strictly worse in any given MU. the only time shielda can ever be better than either of them is when you started on the wrong character.