It's not nearly as fast. It's maybe half the speed of the Brawl version.
And yes GW's terrible rolls are part of the problem.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
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And yes GW's terrible rolls are part of the problem.
What do you have x/y and r set to? What I use and what I see is the most common is one shoulder on shield, one on attack, and one of x/y set to footstool.
I'd rather have the improved flexibility of the current dair, in its ability to be applied offensively and defensively, than only having the better defensive option, expecially because proactive aerials aren't a good defensive option. All they do is beat out moves that you read, but if the opponent wasn't going to attack to begin with, then they get a free grab on your landing or a free tipper.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Look guys, I don't agree with him either, but as long as he is being civil he has the right to discuss and argue his opinions. If you don't want to discuss the topic with him any longer, leave the thread and don't post in it. Saying his thread stupid and requesting it be locked (but continuing to post in it and about it in other threads), insulting his opinions, and accusing him of being a troll doesn't do anything but make you seem like jerks ganging up in him.
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
L is currently set to jump, to make certain things easier, but I might end up changing it to attack instead.
X is attack.
A is shield.
Everything else is default.
Oh and tap jump off.
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To be honest, I feel that the defensive option is better than the mixed utility option. G&W already has a number of pretty solid offensive moves for going in on somebody, assuming he can get space to do so.
And like I said before, if you can establish the Dair and the opponent starts respecting it, that lets you go for other forms of offense instead, most notably Chef.
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http://smashboards.com/threads/a-request-to-make-game-and-watch-good.350969/
http://smashboards.com/threads/what-happened-to-the-key.336504/
most of the GnW players find the mixed utility option better than a purely defensive option. I'd rather support their opinions/desires for the character to grow.
Also, defensive chef and defensive dair (fast fall or not) suffer from the same problems. characters that get in low and fast can just ignore/avoid them and punish them. GnW's defencive options consist of sparsely used rolls, Up-OoS, chef from a distance against air approaches, CC dtilt, and WD back> options.
Well it's certainly not a one-size-fits-all answer to every situation. He does need to rely on footsies as well, if he was still found to be too weak we might have to look at the hitboxes on things like ftilt, fair, and bair.
Not every character needs fantastic defensive options. While GnW struggles getting in, between his good dashes and great WD, bucket, crouch, and bacon he doesn't particularly struggle in dealing with other camping/defensive options, unlike other characters we often describe as having trouble getting in. Although "waiting it out" potentially removes his chances to abuse his great CC game at lower percents due to chip, Its not like he has anything else to worry about when dragging out the neutral game. I really don't think GnW needs anything as of yet other then slightly better rolls. His punish game is well above most of the cast and he does have good option and counterplay to the opponent's gameplan/options, be it offensive and defensive. I guess you could argue that he gets punished hard because he dies fast like in previous games, but he has the same weight as fox now so he doesn't get combo'd as hard but dies off the top sooner, as well as having a great recovery that is flexible with how he comes down from up b (bucket stalling, dairs, double jumps, etc)
And I don't think he has been found to be too weak as he is right now. Dakpo puts in a ton of work in his region. Nintedude got 2nd at Civil war (going a total of 1-2 in sets vs chillen) based off solely theory crafting and his good awareness and knowledge of smash. As far as I know he doesn't have a PM set up himself (don't quote me on that) and didn't invest much time into GnW. I feel that is definetly an indication that the current characters all have the means to perform incredibly, and just need players that have an innate recognition of characters strength/weakness balance to come along and push the boundaries of characters a bit further.
And I don't think he has been found to be too weak as he is right now. Dakpo puts in a ton of work in his region. Nintedude got 2nd at Civil war (going a total of 1-2 in sets vs chillen) based off solely theory crafting and his good awareness and knowledge of smash. As far as I know he doesn't have a PM set up himself (don't quote me on that) and didn't invest much time into GnW. I feel that is definetly an indication that the current characters all have the means to perform incredibly, and just need players that have an innate recognition of characters strength/weakness balance to come along and push the boundaries of characters a bit further.
That would probably fix him as well, but I think it's kind of supposed to be a part of his character that his rolls are slow and bad. I think buffing his roll is actually a bigger buff than anything that I've asked for.
Well, I was considering things like "what frames the move hits on" to be part of "hitboxes". As I understand it, GW has some issue with his attacks lingering for a while after the hit portion ends.
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Dakpo
Smash Lord
just give me back my 0 frames of lag on bacon. #characterfixed
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
You are biased 
character needs no fix
character needs no fix
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
GW is going to turn out to be an amazing character. while there are some that are starting to make a lot of use with him, people that play him are still few and far between. once people start to realize the quality of his punish game, how easy it is for him to get KOs, and how effective his spacing game can be in neutral, i think hes going to jump up a few places on peoples tier lists. GW has absolutely no trouble racking up damage, comboing, or killing. in fact, he definitely has one of the best combo > kill games out of the whole cast. I his main issues lie in neutral. while he does have a lot of approach options, he doesnt have the speed to compliment them. while his DD and ground speed are average, his air mobility is quite below average, and so is his FF. his fair is great for spacing, but is quite punishable since his SHFFL isnt that great. bair is great, but you have to take up a bit more time to incorporate pivots and RARs (the RARs require a bit of commitment). dair, uair, and dash attack can pressure amazingly on shield, but unfortunately suffer from a lack of range, which makes them harder to approach with them because of GWs sub par mobility. the bottom line is that GW typically has to commit to approaches, and doesnt have a lot of room for error since his rolls are terrible, his weight is light, and his speed isnt particularly great. smart usage of SHDB and spacing disjointed attacks can help you optimize GWs options (he does have a fair number of options thankfully), but it definitely takes more work and correct reads in neutral to contend.
its not even that GW is bad in neutral, its just that he doesnt have the qualities to straight up out-do a lot of the cast. you have to play it very smart. once you get past neutral though, GW is hands down one of the best. overall, i think it adds up to him having mid tier potential at the least IMO. possibly a small step above that.
its not even that GW is bad in neutral, its just that he doesnt have the qualities to straight up out-do a lot of the cast. you have to play it very smart. once you get past neutral though, GW is hands down one of the best. overall, i think it adds up to him having mid tier potential at the least IMO. possibly a small step above that.
I four-stocked my friend's Marth with GW today. Everyone was shocked.
The hitboxes on Fair are definitely really good, it beat out a fair amount of Marth's stuff. I'm not as convinced about Bair, it seems quite a bit worse than Brawl. Dair is maybe okay but I'm still not convinced that it's better than the Brawl version.
The hitboxes on Fair are definitely really good, it beat out a fair amount of Marth's stuff. I'm not as convinced about Bair, it seems quite a bit worse than Brawl. Dair is maybe okay but I'm still not convinced that it's better than the Brawl version.
Fair/bair potentially beating out marths stuff doesnt matter unless the gnw has the positional/situational advantage already. What makes tge marth mu bad for gnw (and a lot of characters) is that marth can win most neutral game through dash dancing and inaction. Gnw doesnt dhave the sheer mobility tools to deal with positional pressure of the likes of marth or sonic if they stay grounded (ie playing optimally).
Having success from spacing air moves doesnt equate to that being what gnw relys on. His bad shffls and averge fall speeds in general make jumping in neutral if its not retreating shdb really unsafe. Jumping in neutral in general isnt a good option to begin with if you dont hav a top tier shffl game (see marth vs anyone in melee, most matchups vs sheik). You are stuck on the idea that spacing fairs and defensive dairs like its brawl gnw is optimal, while optimal gnw neutral is just a lot of bacon from distance, dashing/wding, and running> crouch.
Oh, I agree. Like someone said above, GW can do well if he somehow wins the neutral game, because his stage control is pretty solid, and that's entirely how I won. I took control by getting a couple nicely placed throws and tossing Marth up into the air, then sending him off stage with aerials. It helped that it was a jank stage (Castle Siege) which indirectly gave me stage control a couple times.
I still think he needs some help for his neutral game, that's why I said it was a shock that he won that decisively. I don't see it happening again. Still, I think you are somewhat undervaluing aerial pokes. As long as it has enough range to be fairly safe it can still be useful against a lot of characters. See Mewtwo and Ivy Bair for example.
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G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
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well spacing can be good, but you have to mix between spacing attacks for pressure and DDing, CCing, and projectiles. staying unpredictable is never a bad thing, because if your opponent starts to realize that all youre going to do is play defensive in, many characters dont have a problem turning the heat up to make the speed of their pressure game catch up to you.
bair and dair i think are both better than brawl, because they set up and pressure so nicely. bair was actually quite punishable (on hit) in brawl because it had so much hitlag and you could easily DI up and towards GW to get out of it and instantly attack him. in PM, they both have landing hits, so when combined with up bs, dashes away, or spot dodges, you can stay quite safe on shield. dairs landing spike is an extremely rewarding hit (goes right into usmash at so many percents, or will go into nair/up b/side b/uair at any other realistic percent. bair functions very well to chew through shields, and isnt punishable like it was in brawl. it also sets up for things like fair or another bair.
literally the only thing that was better about brawl GW was his horizontal recovery (which is absolutely reasonably taken away for PM, since his vertical recovery is disgustingly good), and the range on his dsmash. all of his other moves have all the functionality of brawl moves plus much more imo.
while GW doesnt excel in neutral, he definitely at least has a multitude of options. and using those options wisely can allow you to deal with even his toughest MUs (though, with some effort).
bair and dair i think are both better than brawl, because they set up and pressure so nicely. bair was actually quite punishable (on hit) in brawl because it had so much hitlag and you could easily DI up and towards GW to get out of it and instantly attack him. in PM, they both have landing hits, so when combined with up bs, dashes away, or spot dodges, you can stay quite safe on shield. dairs landing spike is an extremely rewarding hit (goes right into usmash at so many percents, or will go into nair/up b/side b/uair at any other realistic percent. bair functions very well to chew through shields, and isnt punishable like it was in brawl. it also sets up for things like fair or another bair.
literally the only thing that was better about brawl GW was his horizontal recovery (which is absolutely reasonably taken away for PM, since his vertical recovery is disgustingly good), and the range on his dsmash. all of his other moves have all the functionality of brawl moves plus much more imo.
while GW doesnt excel in neutral, he definitely at least has a multitude of options. and using those options wisely can allow you to deal with even his toughest MUs (though, with some effort).
I'd have to see frame data, but Bair's hitbox seems smaller than it was in Brawl. There were several situations where I expected all of the hits to land but only a few of them did while the others whiffed. It also seems to be a bit weaker overall.
It's possible that my recollection of how some stuff worked in Brawl may be slightly off because for the last few years I was actually playing BBrawl, which was very similar to Brawl but had some slight tweaks. GW might have been slightly better there than he was in the base game.
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Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
So did you happen to make all of these claims before actually playing the character against real people? So many people make arguments based on solely theorycraft, without ever even touching the character about which they are arguing. Maybe this is why people jump on bandwagons when they see a good player such as Nintendude play a character well. They haven't even played the character for a day, so they don't understand what's good and bad, and some in's and outs unless shown by a top/great player...
Edit: Note, I'm not trying to jump on the hate train or anything, I'm just saying that you could afford to bite your tongue a tad bit and conduct a bit more research/play a little more before making all these comments. I'm sorry that I'm being rude and harsh, I just feel like many of your opinions/posts are impulsive in nature and although they are of good intent, they aren't very accepted.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
GnW was my main back in the day and I thought he was amazing, its about time you people accepted it. If you thought Falco was the only one who could do pillar combos you are sadly mistaken
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
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- 1,076
With all due respect I think you could have gotten your point across to him in a more polite manor. I mean he's just discussing the character. No need to call his posts impulsive.
Regardless, I think the buff to oil panic is also critical, because now GW has a pretty good way of dealing with a lot characters approaches. It's really helpful to help counter his average mobility, since navigating around those projectiles is normally quite difficult.
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
Just a random question, but is there a difference in the number of invincibility frames that you have on the ledge in PM, and Melee?
Obviously not, I made it clear a bunch of times that I was unhappy with GW because I played him a lot in Brawl and BBrawl, and compared to those two games he seems substantially weaker in PM. The reason today's match was notable was it was the first match where PM GW actually looked good. I'll admit I did take some cues from Dakpo and some of the other GWs this time around and that clearly helped, but one match isn't going to greatly change my opinion of the character. The one thing is did was enlighten me on the fact that Fair's hitbox is really good. Coming from BBrawl, I was more used to relying on Bair, which seems less good here.
I would also like to point out that claiming you need to play every character to make a tier list / suggest changes for them is nonsense. Virtually no one plays every character, and even if they did, tier lists are based on top-level play, and no one is a top-level player of every character. I suck with Fox, but I can still watch Fox videos and analyze his toolset to determine that he is clearly an extremely strong character.
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Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
Before I take my leave from Smash for about two weeks due to it aiding me in procrastinating, I never said you have to be a top player or every character, I just said that you should take a day to play the character and understand how he or she feels and how good the characters options seem to be, that's all. Also I want to further apologize for stating that your posts were impulsive. Come to think of it, my retort was impulsive. Have a great time without me
Hopefully I won't have to catch up on too much for this thread.Of course. I play random select most of the time, so I've got a good 20-30 matches in with all of the characters by this point (plus hundreds of every character in BBrawl, but of course not all of that transfers over). The thing is though that for some characters you have to play them a specific way for them to be effective, and until that clicks they seem bad. The perfect example of this is Toon Link. If you try to play him like Link, he seems like he sucks. He requires a very different mindset. Ness is like this too. He doesn't play the same as Lucas at all, and if you try to play him that way he seems very lacking.
That being said I'm not convinced yet that this is true of GW. I've seen some good GW players, and while they are much better than me, I feel like the general idea is mostly the same. GW tends to play a very methodical neutral game consisting of bacon, precisely placed pokes, and the occasional throw. He doesn't seem to have any kind of explosive offensive tools the way some other characters do.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Played some solid GnW during PM friendlies at Fight Pitt 4 and he is.... alright.
I used to think bacon sucked, now I only believe that it kinda sucks. Smashville is an amazing GnW stage because bacon will tear people up. You just bacon a lot and people get scared, slowly move forward with it and they can't run under because bacon has already began to fall, then you jump at them with a nair, or fair and they are faced with a whole lot of pressure most characters can't handle. Of course almost any character can escape the pressure when they see you starting to use bacon, but if you find they respect the bacon then use it to your advantage. RAR bair and just good old fair are okay approaches. Fair has only like 2 frames(it seems like it) where the hitbox is MUCH larger than the cake, and will hit farther and harder than usual. If you know when that timing is using it to approach is pretty safe unless facing other disjoints, in that case you are playing an inferior character prepare to lose because life just got way harder.
MK is super good. This guy came just for PM from Delaware to Pittsburgh and he scraped my friends and I. His Sonic was also suffocating. Every stock was pretty much a 0 to death combo that happened off of me not knowing which way to DI while getting hit from all directions. Such fast suffocating characters. Also met a really good Zard player on par with the MK player, really glad to see some more top level Zards.
I used to think bacon sucked, now I only believe that it kinda sucks. Smashville is an amazing GnW stage because bacon will tear people up. You just bacon a lot and people get scared, slowly move forward with it and they can't run under because bacon has already began to fall, then you jump at them with a nair, or fair and they are faced with a whole lot of pressure most characters can't handle. Of course almost any character can escape the pressure when they see you starting to use bacon, but if you find they respect the bacon then use it to your advantage. RAR bair and just good old fair are okay approaches. Fair has only like 2 frames(it seems like it) where the hitbox is MUCH larger than the cake, and will hit farther and harder than usual. If you know when that timing is using it to approach is pretty safe unless facing other disjoints, in that case you are playing an inferior character prepare to lose because life just got way harder.
MK is super good. This guy came just for PM from Delaware to Pittsburgh and he scraped my friends and I. His Sonic was also suffocating. Every stock was pretty much a 0 to death combo that happened off of me not knowing which way to DI while getting hit from all directions. Such fast suffocating characters. Also met a really good Zard player on par with the MK player, really glad to see some more top level Zards.
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MechWarriorNY
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2009
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- 4,455
- 3DS FC
- 5387-4245-6828
I speculate that you lot are wasting time talking here and not labbing it up.
CUE
-ING
CUE
jtm94
Smash Lord
Something that has also begun to bother me more and more is how Sheik lost her "solid at almost any point" Down Throw, but it seems like A LOTTTT of characters who are not Sheik almost have as good of a Down Throw or better, with other stuff on top of it. Charizard's Dthrow is amazing, and I remember seeing that he could act WAY faster than he still can. Never ever let Zard grab you on a plat because he can literally just react to what you will do, it isn't even reads at this point, it's just Zard following and grabbing until he feels like KOing you. MK and Kirby also feel EXTREMELY similar. MK's downthrow is amazing, can chain grab a ton of people, and even if he can't his movement will net him tech chases with EASE, all of this and he can just dash attack into pivot grabs on a lot of characters. Kirby's Dthrow is like MK's, you can't act as fast, but it can be DI'd less so it is effectively the same thing. I face these characters with like... Toon Link or Squirtle and one grab leads to so much damage that I can't escape besides hoping they mess up, it feels worse than Captain Falcon vs Sheik in Melee and that is abnormal and wrong to me.
Grabs as a whole in PM are >>>>>>>>> Melee grabs
It seems like even characters who can't chain grab, get super FREE stuff out of throws. Lucas shouldn't have a throw as strong as his when his downthrow can already convert into Upsmash, bair, and dair for more tech chases.
Then characters like Diddy have "ok" grabs, forward and backthrow do little, just good to toss people offstage, upthrow will only KO floaties starting at 140% which is absurdly high, and downthrow does set up some "mild" tech chase scenarios at low %. Squirtle also seems like he has meh grabs, I REALLYYREALLY wish he could act a TINY BIT faster out of Upthrow I believe, where he goes in his shell and drops them above him. It can be DId away so it doesn't guarantee stuff, but I wish it could lead into his fair like Sheik can do with fthrow. Currently it feels like he can't act for an abnormally long time, and even if they don't DI and do nothing you get out of the endlag BARELY in time to regrab. It just feels unpolished and clunky. I do know his downthrow is pretty strong though.
These aren't complaints, just odd to think about how amazing some characters grab games are and how easy I see some games end just because of really good throws. In Melee Marth and Sheik had good throws, now their throws in Melee seem tame compared to the PM cast as a whole. Don't get me wrong, they still put in work, but some characters can accomplish the same thing with only 1 throw and less of a read.
Grabs as a whole in PM are >>>>>>>>> Melee grabs
It seems like even characters who can't chain grab, get super FREE stuff out of throws. Lucas shouldn't have a throw as strong as his when his downthrow can already convert into Upsmash, bair, and dair for more tech chases.
Then characters like Diddy have "ok" grabs, forward and backthrow do little, just good to toss people offstage, upthrow will only KO floaties starting at 140% which is absurdly high, and downthrow does set up some "mild" tech chase scenarios at low %. Squirtle also seems like he has meh grabs, I REALLYYREALLY wish he could act a TINY BIT faster out of Upthrow I believe, where he goes in his shell and drops them above him. It can be DId away so it doesn't guarantee stuff, but I wish it could lead into his fair like Sheik can do with fthrow. Currently it feels like he can't act for an abnormally long time, and even if they don't DI and do nothing you get out of the endlag BARELY in time to regrab. It just feels unpolished and clunky. I do know his downthrow is pretty strong though.
These aren't complaints, just odd to think about how amazing some characters grab games are and how easy I see some games end just because of really good throws. In Melee Marth and Sheik had good throws, now their throws in Melee seem tame compared to the PM cast as a whole. Don't get me wrong, they still put in work, but some characters can accomplish the same thing with only 1 throw and less of a read.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Ivy's UpB bothers me because it's kind of like what I talked about, where as long as you follow your opponent in the air you will land UpB, but they do have to be at the right percent to go high enough, and I guess it is possible to air dodge it. I've seen Ivy chain grab people before, it's incredibly scary vs fastfallers. I did play a little Ivy today messing around, and I noticed how it sits pretty low to the ground. I was missing grabs and I swore it grabbed that far, but they were just a bit above it and I realized what was happening.
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FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
You forgot Ganon's lmao.
You can't even DI that stupid thing with the exception of going slightly behind him where he can still get you.
I don't know how they are chain grabbing fast fallers nor have I seen it, so I guess thats something to learn thanks.Yeah air dodge can be had at the lower percents but Ivy needs the up B to really kill characters like M2 or Zelda without complete hassle and even then its still a pain.
jtm94
Smash Lord
@
FlamingForce
I figured I would merge with this one so I'm not rapid posting and taking up unnecessary space. q:
Ganon is a different story imo. He has some glaring weaknesses, but also largely defining strengths. I saw this discussed about how some Melee characters, instead of having their strengths buffed, they had weaknesses removed, which makes some characters perhaps better than they should be. Ganon feels very Melee-esque to me in how he is super easy to gimp, but can KO anyone at any % off of some slight cheese and raw power. He's really good at punishing, and to be honest, if Ganon grabs you(his grab isn't the best thing ever and can be ducked under) he deserves the free attack. Now if he had Marth's grab and his current power and a better dash dance/wavedash, THEN the grab would be an issue, but he is indeed balanced.
On that topic I do agree that Roy is incredibly balanced in this game. He also has the Melee feel where he has a weakness and a strength. He has amazing range, juggling abilities, and KO power onstage, but he's a fish out of water offstage. I like the tradeoff aspect, where the character isn't a canon onstage, and a gimp machine offstage.
@
Saproling
I play with SWEET a good bit and he uses Ivy. I've seen him just upthrow regrab spacies in a very similar fashion to Marth. I don't know if the timing is difficult, I just know that I have for a fact seen it, and that Ivy can grab out of the air unlike Link.
I do see your point about floaties. Ivy is a gimp machine against most of the cast, but floaties are incredibly resistant to bair. The thing that I don't like is that Ivysaur's UpB feels a little too.... free, at times.
FlamingForce
I figured I would merge with this one so I'm not rapid posting and taking up unnecessary space. q:Ganon is a different story imo. He has some glaring weaknesses, but also largely defining strengths. I saw this discussed about how some Melee characters, instead of having their strengths buffed, they had weaknesses removed, which makes some characters perhaps better than they should be. Ganon feels very Melee-esque to me in how he is super easy to gimp, but can KO anyone at any % off of some slight cheese and raw power. He's really good at punishing, and to be honest, if Ganon grabs you(his grab isn't the best thing ever and can be ducked under) he deserves the free attack. Now if he had Marth's grab and his current power and a better dash dance/wavedash, THEN the grab would be an issue, but he is indeed balanced.
On that topic I do agree that Roy is incredibly balanced in this game. He also has the Melee feel where he has a weakness and a strength. He has amazing range, juggling abilities, and KO power onstage, but he's a fish out of water offstage. I like the tradeoff aspect, where the character isn't a canon onstage, and a gimp machine offstage.
@
Saproling
I play with SWEET a good bit and he uses Ivy. I've seen him just upthrow regrab spacies in a very similar fashion to Marth. I don't know if the timing is difficult, I just know that I have for a fact seen it, and that Ivy can grab out of the air unlike Link.I do see your point about floaties. Ivy is a gimp machine against most of the cast, but floaties are incredibly resistant to bair. The thing that I don't like is that Ivysaur's UpB feels a little too.... free, at times.
Ah alright ill try that next time im on FD or Ville then.Still nobody I play with mains a fast faller so ill probably just have to go into training for it.Also Link can grab in the air if you do it like right on the hookshot and I know Ivy could they just have to still be so close to the ground that I didn't think it would work since low hitstun.In terms of Ivys up B I get that it would be annoying for anyone having to deal with it,but as an Ivy main I can only love the damn thing.
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
With "Free attack" you mean that he can easily kill a character like Roy with 1 grab at any %, the dthrow is an amazing cg@
Ganon is a different story imo. He has some glaring weaknesses, but also largely defining strengths. I saw this discussed about how some Melee characters, instead of having their strengths buffed, they had weaknesses removed, which makes some characters perhaps better than they should be. Ganon feels very Melee-esque to me in how he is super easy to gimp, but can KO anyone at any % off of some slight cheese and raw power. He's really good at punishing, and to be honest, if Ganon grabs you(his grab isn't the best thing ever and can be ducked under) he deserves the free attack. Now if he had Marth's grab and his current power and a better dash dance/wavedash, THEN the grab would be an issue, but he is indeed balanced.
On that topic I do agree that Roy is incredibly balanced in this game. He also has the Melee feel where he has a weakness and a strength. He has amazing range, juggling abilities, and KO power onstage, but he's a fish out of water offstage. I like the tradeoff aspect, where the character isn't a canon onstage, and a gimp machine offstage.
@
I do see your point about floaties. Ivy is a gimp machine against most of the cast, but floaties are incredibly resistant to bair. The thing that I don't like is that Ivysaur's UpB feels a little too.... free, at times.
I dunno man seems a little silly to me.
I agree that Ganon needs all he can get at the moment but this doesn't seem the way to go.
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The outside two (of five) grab-boxes of Ivysaur's grab are ground-only, so it's significantly harder to chaingrab people as Ivysaur and have to commit with movement.