Penguins are birds that cant fly
Falco is a bird that cant fly
DMG wants fox to be a falco clone, confirmed
Falco is a bird that cant fly
DMG wants fox to be a falco clone, confirmed
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
If I don't watch the streams live due to work, I catch the main matches afterwards.
Poob's a beast, Wolf's a beast, KDJ is still God tier.
Poob's a beast, Wolf's a beast, KDJ is still God tier.
woundedust
Smash Apprentice
Lets just create the ultimate spacie
Falco laser,shine, and dair and f smash
Fox everything else
Falco laser,shine, and dair and f smash
Fox everything else
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
People need to learn how to fight other characters before proclaiming them as "broken" or needing to be nerfed.
Obviously people won't do amazing with like
, but as you pick your main, you should have an idea of what weaknesses you will have to overcome. As you figure out the weaknesses, learn to mitigate them.
As an example: In brawl, I realized got cg'd by a lot of characters. I overcame this weakness by the use of perfect bair spacing and using his fast aerial mobility/b-reversals to avoid getting grabbed.
I'm figuring out's weaknesses in this game at the moment as well as learning his matchups. The three I've found downright difficult are , , and . This is due to those characters having superior spacing and camping tools.
Obviously people won't do amazing with like
, but as you pick your main, you should have an idea of what weaknesses you will have to overcome. As you figure out the weaknesses, learn to mitigate them.As an example: In brawl, I realized
got cg'd by a lot of characters. I overcame this weakness by the use of perfect bair spacing and using his fast aerial mobility/b-reversals to avoid getting grabbed.I'm figuring out
's weaknesses in this game at the moment as well as learning his matchups. The three I've found downright difficult are , , and . This is due to those characters having superior spacing and camping tools.
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Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Glad to see love for Smashing Grounds, and especially my main man @POOB .
Goku1233
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2014
- Messages
- 27
- NNID
- Brolyx1233
I find it funny that people are still crying for Fox and Falco nerfs. Just the other day I went back to play Melee after years and my god, Fox and Falco are actually 2x more powerful in Melee. They're half as powerful as before now but still powerful none the less.
The thing with them is that you have to work for your win with them now and nothing is as free as before. If you people would actually spend 5 hours a day playing with them and playing against them, you'll see what I mean. Many characters in PM can take them out(Zelda, Lucas, Sonic etc).
Stop complaining and let the game evolve. Yes both of them are S tier but not Godtier anymore aka you can now threaten them big time.
The thing with them is that you have to work for your win with them now and nothing is as free as before. If you people would actually spend 5 hours a day playing with them and playing against them, you'll see what I mean. Many characters in PM can take them out(Zelda, Lucas, Sonic etc).
Stop complaining and let the game evolve. Yes both of them are S tier but not Godtier anymore aka you can now threaten them big time.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
certainly they do not. otherwise, why was g&w nerfed?!?!?!?!!
Metazoa
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2013
- Messages
- 48
Hypothetically speaking... since we still have those other "clone-engine" character slots, how opposed would people be to actually using those as "preview/testing" possible changes to characters? This way, instead of just crying out for buffs/nerfs, they can be put to the test in an actual environment and we can see how changes, however miniscule/large they seem on paper, can really affect a character's whole playstyle.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
Don't forget, it needs Fox's short hop and falling speed, but still Falco's full/second jump height.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Foxco, Nemesis of the Universe as we know it
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
To be honest I've always felt that Fox is way better than Falco in both games, but y'know, that's just me.
OldManDyl (OMD)
Smash Cadet
Strong Bad: G&W got a nerf?!?!?! What of his was nerfed?
Bryonato
Green Hat
No more superfood
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Couple things were nerfed on him in 3.0. Lack of superfood, 3 hammer is worse, Fsmash is no longer mulithit, Bacon now has 4 frames of landlag instead of 0, and I think maybe 1 or 2 other things.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Shoulda kept the 0 landing lag on bacon so we could get these 20XX GnW mains that cancel the first frame of bacon every time they land just so their empty landings are 4 frames faster
Player -0
Smash Hero
We should've kept the 0 land lag neutral B for Ivy too then.
Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,595
2.6 bacon was the shiiiiiiit. Not as good as Falco's lasers, but nothing is allowed to be that good.
MK's dair is pretty ****ty.
New dair is so good though! The landing hitbox leads to so many links, man. The meteor hitbox can be scary good when you get the timing down too.
MK's dair is pretty ****ty.
G^W having his current Dair is nice and probably preferred, since you get cooler applications of the move like rising/floating with the hitbox, easier edge cancels (shooting straight down would likely kill or dampen a lot of your horizontal air drift), etc.
MK's Dair is a dumb move on so many levels. We don't even talk about that move.
MK's Dair is a dumb move on so many levels. We don't even talk about that move.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you did okay vs me when we played and i was on those characters. i agree that marth is hard but that's because upthrow punishes are so brutal on diddy. you can beat marth and sheik, you just have to jump less than you're used to probably, they're both really brutal to play against as soon as you start jumping a lot.The three I've found downright difficult are
The floating version I talk about would be flying horizontally at someone with the hitbox. In Brawl, you lose a ton of momentum and it's basically impossible to SH at someone from the side,with the hitbox out + lingering. You could do Dair on top of someone, or try to drift it onto them from higher above, but moving far left or right with the hitbox was not an option. Brawl has the slowfall option, but you already have to stop your momentum in a way that makes it non comparable to the current version. You also lose the option to speed it back up once you decide to slowfall.
There are some moments where a very fast fall Dair would be more useful, but those situations tend to be when G^W is noticeably higher than the person + they are in a spot where it's hard to deal with. Not shielding, not moving around in neutral, etc. That limits it a lot to edgeguarding applications, and generally you can already cover the edge + offstage in massive ways that the addition of a super fast Dair doesn't really seem necessary. If you work to not be so high above the opponent (which is usually an unfavorable position to be in period), then you can make up for those possible fast Dair applications while also enjoying the benefits of not slowing/stopping your momentum so abrubtly. If they are coming from below, maybe to sweetspot the edge, a super fast Dair doesn't seem necessary. You can already drift/hover the current Dair near the edge, you can fall down further with Dair safely, weak Fair gimps, Dtilt to cover the edge, etc
Basically onstage, I'm having a hard time finding a way to justify the old Brawl Dair for him. If you get a tiny benefit offstage *maybe* for switching Dairs, you'd still lose out on how superior the current Dair is for onstage.
There are some moments where a very fast fall Dair would be more useful, but those situations tend to be when G^W is noticeably higher than the person + they are in a spot where it's hard to deal with. Not shielding, not moving around in neutral, etc. That limits it a lot to edgeguarding applications, and generally you can already cover the edge + offstage in massive ways that the addition of a super fast Dair doesn't really seem necessary. If you work to not be so high above the opponent (which is usually an unfavorable position to be in period), then you can make up for those possible fast Dair applications while also enjoying the benefits of not slowing/stopping your momentum so abrubtly. If they are coming from below, maybe to sweetspot the edge, a super fast Dair doesn't seem necessary. You can already drift/hover the current Dair near the edge, you can fall down further with Dair safely, weak Fair gimps, Dtilt to cover the edge, etc
Basically onstage, I'm having a hard time finding a way to justify the old Brawl Dair for him. If you get a tiny benefit offstage *maybe* for switching Dairs, you'd still lose out on how superior the current Dair is for onstage.
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The main way I used GW Dair in BBrawl was as a defensive option. Neutral jump Dair shuts down many forms of aggressive approach, because you can disappear from a spot and then attack it a couple frames later. I feel this is quite important for GW, particularly given the loss of Tropical Fish, because he seems to have a hard time dealing with pressure. Forcing the opponent to be more respectful in their approach gives him more space to make use of things like short hop Chef and makes his own approach better.
It also has use in air to air exchanges when GW is above his opponent, similar to Kirby Down B. It has excellent priority, so it'll beat most up aerials. Even if the opponent avoids the attack, GW will get down to the stage before they do, potentially giving him an advantage in stage control.
Perhaps it's because I'm used to it, but when I was watching Dakpo play, even though he played GW extremely well, I could see numerous cases where the fast fall dair would have made GW better. Basically any time the move had to travel a bit before it hit, because if it had the fast fall it would have gotten there faster, giving the opponent less time to deal with it and allowing for true punishes in more situations.
It also has use in air to air exchanges when GW is above his opponent, similar to Kirby Down B. It has excellent priority, so it'll beat most up aerials. Even if the opponent avoids the attack, GW will get down to the stage before they do, potentially giving him an advantage in stage control.
Perhaps it's because I'm used to it, but when I was watching Dakpo play, even though he played GW extremely well, I could see numerous cases where the fast fall dair would have made GW better. Basically any time the move had to travel a bit before it hit, because if it had the fast fall it would have gotten there faster, giving the opponent less time to deal with it and allowing for true punishes in more situations.
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Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
>Has problems dealing with pressure
>Has a frame 1 up B
Wat... Game & Watch has amazing ways of dealing with pressure. Up B out of shield, shield grab, wavedash OoS among others are great ways of dealing with badly timed pressure
And Up B is that much deadlier when you can fast fall dair out of it. That was one of the main parts of Dakpo's gameplay where I could definitely see a use for it.
You can Fast fall Dair out of it. You dair then fast fall. Forcing the forced fast fall makes it that much harder than it needs to be to use it most situations. It makes using it to cover tech, platform, and get up options. It also makes it less safe to use it as a combo ender off stage. Forcing the fast fall limits the flexibility that the move gives.
This discussion (brawl dair/nair) has literally been argued to death on the GnW boards. I wish people would at least look at what the people who actually play the characters think before they make huge assumptions about a character.
This discussion (brawl dair/nair) has literally been argued to death on the GnW boards. I wish people would at least look at what the people who actually play the characters think before they make huge assumptions about a character.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I just mostly disregard Terotrous's opinion on anything after that abomination of a thread.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
I disregarded them before that thread to be frank
Paradoxium
Smash Master
I just realized he change the name of the thread. It uses to be something about a wavedash button and now it is about input buffering, this guy never gives up on his views. I should just stop feeding that thread lol
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Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Before that thread I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, ya know? However, that thread all but confirmed my first impressions lol
I honestly had him ignored and didn't even see the thread until you guys started talking about it, and I 100% just fed the thread with a huge rant before realizing he changed the OP >.>
Anyway, how bout those tiers?
I still think footstools are broken and more people should use them. AZ is getting on it now too, there are some stupid techs that are coming out of the woodwork. Hell, I'm just going to make that my sig or something
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MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
8adge came up with a great way to use it as Lucas, so I plan on incorporating them into my game for sure
I don't think GnW is a bad character, I've always thought of him as solid, he just has exploitable weaknesses and a weight problem.
I honestly think GnW has problems dealing with real pressure. Badly timed pressure probably shouldn't be considered when discussing tier placement or character viability since in the long run badly timed pressure becomes less and less likely to even occur. I used to play him and after playing Nintendude it definitely seems like actual pressure is something GnW crumples to.
I don't think GnW is a bad character, I've always thought of him as solid, he just has exploitable weaknesses and a weight problem.
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I have been messing around with footstools myself recently.
@GnW I think where he struggles dealing with pressure is his horrible rolls. If he had average rolls, then he would have better anti-pressure options than just Up-b OoS, which is amazing but isn't a cure-all.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
I would use them. If I had room for them. But as it stands. I have L set to a different input then shield and as a result have one of the face buttons set to shield, so I don't exactly have the room for it. And the D-pad is in just a awful position to be practical. :/