Tier List Speculation

[G13_Flux]

On samus, I think it's definitely worth while to mention not niether increased kill options (ice beam fair and up smash for instance) but also the significance of how she does MU wise, in relation to her projectiles and CCing. There's a lot of new characters that really get shut out by characters with heavy CC games (Roy, squirtle, and MK to name a few). Samus probably has the best CC game between her weight, dsmash, dtilt, and her crawl attack. When you combine this with her projectiles (which are even a bit better than melee) she is excruciatingly difficult to approach and hard to put pressure on. with the few added kill moves she gained, her punish game is made more effective. Id say she is likely right at the end of the high tier

 

[Terotrous]

On samus, I think it's definitely worth while to mention not niether increased kill options (ice beam fair and up smash for instance) but also the significance of how she does MU wise, in relation to her projectiles and CCing. There's a lot of new characters that really get shut out by characters with heavy CC games (Roy, squirtle, and MK to name a few). Samus probably has the best CC game between her weight, dsmash, dtilt, and her crawl attack. When you combine this with her projectiles (which are even a bit better than melee) she is excruciatingly difficult to approach and hard to put pressure on. with the few added kill moves she gained, her punish game is made more effective. Id say she is likely right at the end of the high tier

I dunno, beating Roy is nothing to brag about, and I really doubt she has the edge against Squirtle since he can go through her projectiles and under a lot of her stuff, rather CCing is probably her only defense in that matchup. Beating MK would be nice but I actually don't think he's a massive threat anymore and I don't see her doing too good against too many other characters who have really safe pressure or great pokes.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I dunno, beating Roy is nothing to brag about...

How about we set up a game between Terotrous and Sethlon? I mean, beating Roy is nothing to brag about after all.

 

[G13_Flux]

i additionally forget to mention something very important. samus was considered to have an even MU with fox in melee. with all of her buffs, as well as a couple nerfs to fox, its actually quite likely that she could be advantageous against him, which definitely is something to brag about.

 

[Vashimus]

i additionally forget to mention something very important. samus was considered to have an even MU with fox in melee. with all of her buffs, as well as a couple nerfs to fox, its actually quite likely that she could be advantageous against him, which definitely is something to brag about.

Falco as well. Screw Attack OoS just flat-out ruins a lot of his shield pressure.

I don't feel Samus needs much room for improvement. She got most of the buffs she needed and her toolset allows her to handle most of the cast very well. In my eyes she's already a pretty strong character, albeit a bit nuanced and underrated.

 

[Terotrous]

How about we set up a game between Terotrous and Sethlon? I mean, beating Roy is nothing to brag about after all.

How about we set up a match between Hungrybox and everyone here and see if anyone can beat his Jigglypuff?

Jigglypuff is obviously top tier in PM. Or there will always be some good players even using crappy characters. The point was that having an advantageous matchup against a low tier character isn't a huge boon to your tier position.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I'd say Roy beats Samus, though, at least by a little.
He has about the same ranged disjoints as Marth + Godly Nair.
Marth has trouble comboing Samus, while Roy has no trouble comboing anyone.
He's much faster now as well.
Samus might be able to combo him a bit, but so can everyone else.

If Melee Marth had a good match-up against Melee Samus, I don't see why PM Roy wouldn't have a good match-up against this Samus.

 

[Mera Mera]

Unfortunately it seems like it's usually Uair or Fair, neither of which can kill very well.

Sheik's grab game in PM from what I can tell is this:

You d-throw or b-throw. Bad or no DI leads to anything except maybe regrab and downtilt (depends). For good DI, it depends on whether or not you threw them off stage. If you threw them off the stage, good DI will lead needles and/or an edgeguard attempt. If you threw them on the stage then good DI leads to needles, dash attack, sometimes dash->crouch->dsmash, and sometimes a tech chase (which depending on how far the opponent's tech rolls are, can often lead to a guaranteed regrab if you tech chase on reaction).

Since d-throw is so fast no DI does happen, and since d-throw and b-throw are DI mix ups bad DI happens. A typical followup for this situation is f-tilt since it leads to any aerial. Also, since you have two directions to throw, you are never forced to throw them offstage, meaning you can have decent followups pretty much always, which is the one advantage PM Sheik has over Melee Sheik.

And f-air, because of the low angle and strength is often better than b-air for killing/setting up for the edgeguard. Bair is super good because of it's huge disjoint, and thus bair is very useful for dealing with them trying to come back.

 

[jtm94]

GnW super food was freaking amazing. If I was as good then as I am now, I would use that move and that move only.

 

[Kati]

its "on purpose" in that crawl has priority over dropping through platforms

I thought I was having troubles dropping through platforms... am I interpreting this right that Samus doesn't drop through as easily?

 

[Vashimus]

Explains why missile-canceling still feels off.

 

[Terotrous]

Sheik's grab game in PM from what I can tell is this:

The post you were quoting was about Samus, not Sheik. Sheik's throw game is good.

 

[Mera Mera]

The post you were quoting was about Samus, not Sheik. Sheik's throw game is good.

Oh lol... I was really confused when you said you could only do uair or bair. My bad.

 

[B.W.]

I'd say Roy beats Samus, though, at least by a little.
He has about the same ranged disjoints as Marth + Godly Nair.
Marth has trouble comboing Samus, while Roy has no trouble comboing anyone.
He's much faster now as well.
Samus might be able to combo him a bit, but so can everyone else.

If Melee Marth had a good match-up against Melee Samus, I don't see why PM Roy wouldn't have a good match-up against this Samus.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Melee Marth has a good matchup vs Samus in Melee partially (not totally) because he's one of few characters that actually can combo Samus, so saying Marth has trouble comboing Samus is untrue.

Other reasons is because he can invade her space and not care because of his disjointed sword and because if Marth manages to take Samus to somewhere small she has no space.

I'd imagine she would also have trouble with Roy, due to his sword as well. This is really just a guess though.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Melee Marth has a good matchup vs Samus in Melee partially (not totally) because he's one of few characters that actually can combo Samus, so saying Marth has trouble comboing Samus is untrue.

If that's the case, then I guess i just suck against Samus, or I'm just doing things that don't work on floaties.

 

[G13_Flux]

How about we set up a match between Hungrybox and everyone here and see if anyone can beat his Jigglypuff?

Jigglypuff is obviously top tier in PM. Or there will always be some good players even using crappy characters. The point was that having an advantageous matchup against a low tier character isn't a huge boon to your tier position.

Well I wouldn't exactly call Roy low tier.Just because one or a few think that doesn't mean it's true. I think there's far more consensus about Roy being a solid mid tier character. I'm not saying Samus is godly, rather just saying I think there are more than a few cases where her positive attributes make it very difficult for a lot of characters. Sure I cited only two of the top of my head since they are characters notable fir being susceptible to CCing. There are many more out there though, as well as those are entirely shut out by her projectile game. The space animal MUs I think are huge as well.

 

[NickRiddle]

Samus is actually gdlk though.

 

[Terotrous]

Well I wouldn't exactly call Roy low tier.Just because one or a few think that doesn't mean it's true.

I dunno pretty much every list I've seen has him mid tier or lower. Like I've speculated before, I think it's actually a fundamental flaw in Roy's design - since he does no damage when hitting with the tip of his sword, he effectively has lesser range than the hitboxes on his attacks would indicate. Marth can get away with some of his flaws due to his massive range, but with Roy's diminished range his problems (extremely convenient combo weight, bad recovery, limited overall versatility, etc) become more pronounced.

I think the way to fix Roy would be to make him do normal damage with the tip of his sword. Not his boosted sweetspot damage, but not garbage sourspot damage either, more like Ike than Marth. I've also contemplating switching out Double Edge Dance for Quick Draw (making him a complete Marth / Ike hybrid), but it might not be necessary.

 

[Metazoa]

What if Roy's tipper'd moves brought you in closer just because

 

[G13_Flux]

What if Roy's tipper'd moves brought you in closer just because

I think you would end up getting punished on hit. lol. but I really dont think that its a fundamental flaw. sure, he doesnt do as much damage at the tip, but that doesnt mean that the hitboxes dont extend that far. he still sports a lot of range, and in some cases (ftilt, utilt), he sports more range than marth or ike. The fact that a lot of his combo moves posses quite low KB means that he can quite easily combo into killers. and seriously, roy has like one of the best kill arsenals in the game, based on how easily it is for him to set up into almost everything, the number of options he has to choose from, and how early those options kill. Granted he does have some issues, like the whole FFing speed with low weight and a short recovery, but he can mitigate that somewhat with proper stage picks (YS, smashville, GHZ, FoD, warioware, etc.). he definitely has some problems that can be exploited, which is why im calling him a solid mid tier character, but i think he has way too much kill power, edge guarding capabilities, and speed to be called a low tier character. I mean his punish game is just absolutely insane.

 

[Terotrous]

Roy FTilt is indeed pretty godly, I abuse the crap out of that move whenever I play as Roy. I think one of the things that makes this move so good is that it doesn't do garbage damage if you hit from long range.

I just noticed that I put Roy 3rd worst. This is maybe slightly too low (I actually thought I had him a little higher), but I do think he's low tier overall. For him to do greatly reduced damage from range is just such an unnecessary handicap when so many characters match or exceed his range without any sort of penalty.

 

[Spralwers]

His tipper isn't an unnecessary handicap. At high percentages, hitting with the tipper on a decent amount of Roy's moves (uair, fair, dtilt, just to name a few) can give Roy easy opportunities to combo into his kill moves - a strength Marth players everywhere wish they had. I'm not sure how different his combo game would be if his tipper was just a regular hit and not a sourspot. Definitely better at lower percentages, but at higher, he could suffer fundamentally the same issues with his combo game that Marth does.

 

[FlamingForce]

His tipper isn't an unnecessary handicap. At high percentages, hitting with the tipper on a decent amount of Roy's moves (uair, fair, dtilt, just to name a few) can give Roy easy opportunities to combo into his kill moves - a strength Marth players everywhere wish they had.

Let me get this straight, Marth players wish that their tippers set up for kill moves at high %?

I'm pretty sure their tippers outright kill at high %.

 

[Terotrous]

Let me get this straight, Marth players wish that their tippers set up for kill moves at high %?

I'm pretty sure their tippers outright kill at high %.

Marth's issue is that at high percents his combos stop working, forcing him to either land a raw tipper hit or put in enough damage that his sourspots will kill.

If Roy's sourspots had decent power, he wouldn't be that susceptible to this, because he'd still be able to kill at reasonable percentages even with non-sweetspotted attacks.

 

[Spralwers]

Let me get this straight, Marth players wish that their tippers set up for kill moves at high %?

I'm pretty sure their tippers outright kill at high %.

To be more specific, Marth's tipper at higher percentages kills with his strong moves, like fsmash. But with moves like fair, uair, and dtilt, it knocks people too far (esp with the tipper) for him to follow up into a kill move, but it doesn't have the knockback to kill people. Roy's tipper, with reduced knock back but still decent hit stun, is sometimes just what he needs to close the distance and get in with his kill moves.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Roy has a lot of fairly easy set-ups into his kill moves. The sourspot on his dair is huge and sets up for combos and kill moves at like any percent.

 

[jtm94]

Roy is amazing and people need to stop hating.

He's like Marth if you don't have to space for the tip of the sword, just the rest of it. He will take your stock at high % incredibly easy in comparison to Marth, and can still KO outright at moderate %. Neutral B has the same strength the entire length of the sword, fsmash can still KO at the tip, ftilt will KO at like 100%, Downsmash will KO at 100%, bair will KO at like 80%, fsmash can KO at 65%.

If there is anything holding Roy back it's his lackluster recovery, not his amazing combo/KO game. He also has Ken Combos.

 

[B.W.]

Yeah but his Ken Combo is bad, let's not talk about it.

 

[Soft Serve]

Spoiler

 

[NickRiddle]

Roy's actually pretty bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Samus is actually gdlk though.

Roy's actually pretty bad.

Thank you for your detailed and astute observations :-P

 

[Terotrous]

ftilt will KO at like 100%, Downsmash will KO at 100%, bair will KO at like 80%, fsmash can KO at 65%.

Uhhh, on who? Jiggs? All of these seem about 20% too early vs most of the cast.

If there is anything holding Roy back it's his lackluster recovery, not his amazing combo/KO game. He also has Ken Combos.

There's no question that's a big part of the problem. Like I posted a while back, I think Roy has the game's worst overall defense. Sure, he's not the lightest, but he's very comboable and has terrible recovery. Since he tends not to last too long, that means he really has to put in work to keep pace with his opponent, and that's why I find his offense lacking. If he had mid-tier survivability (say, along the lines of a Pikachu or something) he'd probably be fine.


I suppose rather than a sword buff we could instead consider a recovery buff. That's why I was suggesting giving him quick draw.

 

[jtm94]

Been a while since tested. I find swords to be good in this game, he definitely is a floaty killer. And he has a combo game for sure.

 

[NickRiddle]

Thank you for your detailed and astute observations :-P

I didn't realize facts needed to be explained.
At least that's what people who constantly spout "Spacies OP" seem to show.

 

[jtm94]

I didn't realize facts needed to be explained.
At least that's what people who constantly spout "Spacies OP" seem to show.

I don't really find spacies themselves to be absolutely OP from their skillset alone, but their 12 years of developed meta game puts them far beyond any other character. They are really figured out in a good way, standard melee players need to be WAY more technical than PM players because to win melee you need either 1. good reads 2. safe approaches or 3. more inherent pluses than your opponent.

The thing is that by playing textbook, "good fox." You are taking care of both 2 and 3. Fox is good because of little things, little things that ANY character could currently have. Things like knowing weak nair flows into other moves at certain %s, knowing exactly how + things are on shield and how he can safely apply nair > shine shield pressure. It is just a TON of little things.

If Fox wasn't in any prior iteration of the game and new to us, people would be like hey upsmash is strong, seems like upthrow to uair is pretty good, this shine thing is fast, but what do I use it for? It's just that a melee player can just crush with them by playing them solid against 100% of the characters in PM, but it is only possible because of how known they are. There is a correct use of them unlike any newcomer in PM.

Roy could be freaking amazing, Olimar could be top tier. It's all about discovery. People still find new janky once in a lifetime use stuff in Melee, but they will still learn it just incase the situation happens and it's flashy. PM players tend to be more open to change being that the meta game is so plastic, it isn't inherently a bad thing, but it becomes bad when people WANT change to fix something they don't like, AKA Fox.

I don't even know how Fox would be changed without unfairness. I would really feel for Melee players who do enjoy Fox and don't play him because he's broken. PAL modifications are the only acceptable bet imo because the developers put those in place after seeing what Fox could do. Even if you weaken upsmash, or hurt Upthrow uair good Fox will continue to wreck PM.


TL;DR NOTE: It may not be that Fox is too good, the other characters may in fact be better, but are not nearly as developed yet. Say no one changed, I believe PM characters to be so good it would be N64 esque in 10 years, in how these same current characters will have 0 to death combos on EVERYONE.

 

[NickRiddle]

Oh, I completely agree with you.
I was just comparing my statements with people who are wrong about Fox.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the funny this is that while the melee top tiers are mostly figured out, i don't see many people using the brawl techs with them. Like Dacus (Flaco, Jiggs, Marth), and specially AGT. Maybe i'm just seeing the wrong matches tho

 

[Juushichi]

idk if I think Roy is pretty bad.

I think he's a fair character with obvious deficiencies (he actually has more Marth syndrome than Marth does, imagine that) in a game where there are characters who are unfair and have "obvious" or not-so-obvious deficiencies.

If this game was Melee 2.0, Roy would be good. It isn't, but Roy is still decent enough to compete I believe, though YMMV on that.

 

[Terotrous]

PM players tend to be more open to change being that the meta game is so plastic, it isn't inherently a bad thing, but it becomes bad when people WANT change to fix something they don't like, AKA Fox.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Link sucked in Melee. We wanted him to suck less, and we got it. How is this different from wanting the characters who are currently too strong to be toned down a little? Are you saying all of the changes to the Melee cast are bad?

idk if I think Roy is pretty bad.

I think he's a fair character with obvious deficiencies (he actually has more Marth syndrome than Marth does, imagine that) in a game where there are characters who are unfair and have "obvious" or not-so-obvious deficiencies.

If this game was Melee 2.0, Roy would be good. It isn't, but Roy is still decent enough to compete I believe, though YMMV on that.

I totally agree, I'm pretty sure I posted something like this before. Most of the characters I had at lower mid or low are characters who are "balanced" in terms of having various pros and cons. Unfortunately, there's plenty of characters in the game who either have few to no cons, or their pros are so ludicrously strong that their cons merely hold them back from total dominance rather than keep them even. As such, there's really no reason to use someone who does some things well and other things not so well, if they're going to have a significant drawback their strengths need to be buffed to extreme levels in order to compete with the best.

 

[The_Guide]

Honest question: How many characters does Fox destroy in this game? Like, 65:35 or worse? Is there anyone that he loses to? There's always talk about nerfing Fox, but people that are for it tend to cite his properties rather than his matchups. Unless most of the cast is being invalidated by his existence, I don't see too much reason to nerf him.