Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

That was Apex IIRC. You couldn't pick YS past match 1.

 

[NickRiddle]

That's stupid...
Can we do that for every starter stage, or is banning YI too complicated?

Edit:

Wait...

From Apex:
Counterpicks:

Battlefield

Final Destination

Smashville

Pokemon Stadium 2

Dreamland (64)

Fountain of Dreams


Yoshi’s Story (Melee) (singles only)

SSE: Jungle (doubles only)

Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)

Pokemon Stadium 1

Lylat Cruise

Wario Ware

Green Hill Zone

Skyloft

Skyworld


What are you trying to pull?

 

[The_NZA]

That was Apex IIRC. You couldn't pick YS past match 1.

I'm sorry, what are you talking about? I don't think that was ever the case. Apex's ruleset was only bottom two rows legal, bottom row neutral, middle row counterpick. I was there.

 

[Rizner]

Starter only probably comes from misunderstanding the term "single only starter". It's a starter stage which can be counter picked to, but not available in doubles at all.

 

[didds]

this thread seems drunk to me, or maybe I'm drunk. Happy birthday to me

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

My mistake. Carry on.

Edit: In my Timezone you're drunk at 11:30 a.m. Which is kind of trashy, birthday or not.

 

[didds]

it's okay, not much was happening. I started using diddy recently, he's amazing. where are all of the diddy mains?

 

[Saproling]

it's okay, not much was happening. I started using diddy recently, he's amazing. where are all of the diddy mains?

Eating peanut butter.

 

[TreK]

Bananas suck in PM though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Bananas have proper counterplay in PM though.

Fix'd

 

[didds]

Bananas are still amazing, if you can actively catch and counter every banana I toss at you while adjusting to peanuts and other mixup, then you should be building rocket ships anyway

Diddy is pretty solid even without bananas

 

[Saproling]

Bananas are still amazing, if you can actively catch and counter every banana I toss at you while adjusting to peanuts and other mixup, then you should be building rocket ships anyway

Diddy is pretty solid even without bananas

Pretty much this ,nanner's are a good tool but he doesn't always need to have them out.

 

[didds]

threat of bananas tho, just the option of a high speed projectile that basically tees the opponent up. Get a banana in your hand and it's like Diddy's neutral goes super saiyan

edit: i guess bananas are considered items though? not sure

 

[Alondite]

I think bananas are fine in PM; wavedash pickups are fun, though it does make it pretty easy for your opponent to grab them. The easy solution is just to not be stupid with them.

 

[FlamingForce]

threat of bananas tho, just the option of a high speed projectile that basically tees the opponent up. Get a banana in your hand and it's like Diddy's neutral goes super saiyan

edit: i guess bananas are considered items though? not sure

Yes they are, you can AGT with them.

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy is not solid without bananas lol. He has good moves but nothing that is idsjointed enough to be spaced in neutral in most match ups. Without bananas he is just a worse falcon. Bananas make match ups like marth and shiek and take them from a 70/30 to around 55/45 for marth, 60/40 shiek. Ness is a lot better than diddy without bananas, and i mean a lot.

 

[Crezyte]

I feel like Diddy is good when and only when he can get started. Which, needless to say, is super difficult in some matchups.

 

[didds]

I totally agree that he still needs nanners to do real damage, but he still has enough going for him that he doesn't just roll over and die without them. Good mobility, awesome dd and grab game, some strong air attacks. He's not sopo or NOlimar or anything. Maybe solid was wrong, how about "not useless" or even "decent"?

Are you implying that ness isn't that great and as such can be used as a comparison as to how weak diddy becomes without nanners?

ness op

 

[Doser]

Recovering with a tether is way too safe and easy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Recovering with a tether is way too safe and easy.

This isn't 2.6 anymore

 

[batistabus]

Diddy is not solid without bananas lol. Without bananas he is just a worse falcon.

Stop lol

 

[MLGF]

So out of curiosity, and I hope this is the right place to post this, how does the PM:BR decide which characters to nerf version to version? Is it based on tourney dominance and ease of use, or on theory fighter to an extent?

 

[DMG]

Tends to be very based on results (and people are ignorant of results from other regions). Prime example would be Sonic. Most people assume Zenith + Wizzrobe is why the character was nerfed, but if you ask those same people "So who mained Sonic?", they could only think of 1 name to begin with. Wizz was doing good obviously, Sethlon was winning most of our events with Sonic back in those days, etc. Same thing with Ike: People associate Vro at Big House with Ike nerfs, when they have no clue how Ike was doing very well all around from multiple players.

Some nerfs don't take a ton of results to pinpoint what went wrong. Mario doesn't need 3 nationals under his belt for players to realize "Hey we mighta buffed Fireballs too far". Same with Link Rang, cheesy older versions of characters, Bowser with a Sword, etc

 

[FlamingForce]

Diddy is not solid without bananas lol.

Well he's no slouch either.
I've been playing alot of Diddy and I certainly haven't felt like there were any glaring shortcomings.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wait that's exactly what Bowser needs.

Galaxia and Falco's Blaster

 

[MLGF]

Tends to be very based on results (and people are ignorant of results from other regions). Prime example would be Sonic. Most people assume Zenith + Wizzrobe is why the character was nerfed, but if you ask those same people who mained Sonic, they could only think of 1 name to begin with. Wizz was doing good obviously, Sethlon was winning most of our events with Sonic back in those days, etc. Same thing with Ike: People associate Vro at Big House with Ike nerfs, when they have no clue how Ike was doing very well all around from multiple players.

Some nerfs don't take a ton of results to pinpoint what went wrong. Mario doesn't need 3 nationals under his belt for players to realize "Hey we mighta buffed Fireballs too far". Same with Link Rang, cheesy older versions of characters, Bowser with a Sword, etc

That is very helpful actually, thanks.
I didn't expect such a quick and straightforward answer TBH, so I really am happy with that response.

 

[Hashtag]

Diddy is not solid without bananas lol. He has good moves but nothing that is idsjointed enough to be spaced in neutral in most match ups. Without bananas he is just a worse falcon. Bananas make match ups like marth and shiek and take them from a 70/30 to around 55/45 for marth, 60/40 shiek. Ness is a lot better than diddy without bananas, and i mean a lot.

You know I don't agree with all of this softie. <. <

Diddy is pretty solid, even without bananas.
Bananas just make him better... my personal opinion though.

 

[Soft Serve]

You know I don't agree with all of this softie. <. <

Diddy is pretty solid, even without bananas.
Bananas just make him better... my personal opinion though.

The ness part might be a stretch. I really do think that without Bananas Diddy is a slower Falcon with less combo potential on floaties but a much longer recovery. He is still really good without them.

 

[trash?]

saying "diddy needs bananas for his strengths to shine" really shouldn't be a controversial statement though, I'm a bit confused as to why it is

 

[Vale]

Guys, I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think Fox isn't nearly as good if he can only use the A button.

 

[DMG]

Idk man, Fox jabs are pretty sick

 

[mYzeALot]

You could say that about pretty much any character and have the same be true. Maybe only CF only needs the A button to do what he needs to get done.

 

[DMG]

Captain Falcon need grab badly

Diddy need kill badly

Red Warrior need food badly

 

[Plum]

People play injustice?

The buzzkill you saw at EVO last year couldn't be further from how the game is right now given the balance updates since.
Character diversity is WAAAY up and a vast majority of the BS that was in the game is gone.
I would actually recommend watching and/or playing Injustice to anybody right now. The game is tight as **** now.

 

[DMG]

Injustice had a bad wrap for a long time. They actually patched it and cared about the game. Now it's cool.

 

[Cassio]

Any reasonable separation of Fox and Falco into a top tier should also include diddy. How exactly did bananas get nerfed compared to Brawl? Diddy is basically the same character he was in Brawl with buffs and his already great mobility transitioned well into PM. This is especially true in PM's easy recovery environment. Versatile gameplay with a strong offense and defense, great grab game and chaingrabs, improved killing ability and recovery. Character is pretty underrated outside West Coast.

 

[Rizner]

Any reasonable separation of Fox and Falco into a top tier should also include diddy. How exactly did bananas get nerfed compared to Brawl? Diddy is basically the same character he was in Brawl with buffs and his already great mobility transitioned well into PM. This is especially true in PM's easy recovery environment. Versatile gameplay with a strong offense and defense, great grab game and chaingrabs, improved killing ability and recovery. Character is pretty underrated outside West Coast.

Defensive options against them are better now, imo. You can agt one thrown at you to land on the ground and act, allowing for characters with better ground games to approach and fight against it quickly, allow characters to use it when thrown for an edgeguard and gain height, and I think the trip can be teched? Although, these techniques also help diddy against bananas and in using them (such as he can agt and move and stuff). Overall, the banana interactons between characters are just different.

 

[DMG]

You can tech banana trips, swat bananas, catch them with triangle jumps/wavedashes, etc. If you dash forward, or are DDing, you can shield instantly. This was not the case in Brawl

 

[B.W.]

Item play in general is not as good as it used to be. Even for Link/T.Link.

I play hot potato with Link's bombs all the time, but at least bombs explode, which can keep the opponent from using the item against Link sometimes.

Banana play is strong, but only if Diddy's opponent doesn't reverse the banana game. Also peanuts are catchable, though they are harder to catch.

 

[DMG]

If you could catch (and throw back) Link's Boomerang, they would have to nerf it

Spoiler

For Link's sake