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Tier List Speculation

TheReflexWonder

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Just...move away from Wario and he's signficantly less effective. If you have a good projectile or spacing tool, you can control most of the space he needs to do serious work. Wario is definitely not Top 5 material, and I am confident it will become apparent as people get used to his mix-ups and embrace his weakness to walling. It's not about running away--It's about forcing Wario to commit. If you come at him, he never has to commit, but he has to make a lot of commitment to start his most powerful stuff if the opponent doesn't go in.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Speed, zoning, BnBs

None of those is in possession of Weegee
Of course, but, horizontal aerial mobility isn't a factor there. Vertical aerial mobility certainly is, I'm sure.

And Luigi has his wavedash, Brawl Jab, and Brawl Down-B, which all help with speed and zoning.
 

skaterbaj

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Just...move away from Wario and he's signficantly less effective. If you have a good projectile or spacing tool, you can control most of the space he needs to do serious work. Wario is definitely not Top 5 material, and I am confident it will become apparent as people get used to his mix-ups and embrace his weakness to walling. It's not about running away--It's about forcing Wario to commit. If you come at him, he never has to commit, but he has to make a lot of commitment to start his most powerful stuff if the opponent doesn't go in.
Easy for you to say he isn't top 5 when you won with him :p. just my opinion(hell i'll put lucario up around the top to). Not much tech skill is needed from the brawl characters to perform well IMO. But from playing this demo with friends since its release i don't see Wario, lucario or Sonic no less than top of B Tier with A being top.
Soooo yeahhhh
 

TheReflexWonder

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what do you mean move away from? Easy for you to say he isn't top 5 when you won with him :p. just my opinion(hell i'll put lucario up around the top to). Not much tech skill is needed from the brawl characters to perform well IMO. But from playing this demo with friends since its release i don't see Wario, lucario or Sonic no less than top mid tier.
Soooo yeahhhh
I won with a character who was given new mix-ups and improvements on almost every one of his moves, one who retains the general feel of Brawl Wario, mostly against people who had about two weeks to practice (compared to my forever, since I'm a playtester). I do not feel like the results of a 16-man event showing off big engine changes are indicative of what the metagame is or will be.

Squirtle is a prime example of a character who needs a lot of work from the player to figure out how to reliably make good use of his moves. Again, it's only natural that the "easier" characters do well at first.
 

skaterbaj

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I agree and Squirtle is mad good to! its like. Like i said in my other post i believe as the game progresses and people settle into their mains, the brawl characters will be up there
 

TheReflexWonder

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I don't think any of the 2.5 newcomers will end up being higher than Mid Tier, but, as always, it remains to be seen.
 

Vashimus

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I still think seeing ZSS being put bottom tier is crazy. I mean she looks like she has everything to be successful in a Melee environment. Great mobility and SHFFL, good projectile, decent recovery, she can combo for days.... she's from SPACE. Seems legit to me.

:phone:
 

Oonai

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I'm not going to act super educated on the tier list ATM, as our region is yet to host a PM event (first one this weekend!).

But I wanna know if we really think that PM has a tier list from S+, S, S- .... all the way to C-?

Really that big of a spread?:urg:
 

OkamiBW

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Listen, bubbaking. I sometimes like what you have to say. I agree with your tier list for the most part and especially compared to most. But if you can't find me any videos of Squirtle doing the theories that you're saying, especially against good players, then I'm just going to be a stubborn Taurus like I am and not listen. Pretty much every other character except maybe Diddy has a spearhead or two.
 

Archangel

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Good job Marth, apparently a number of people think you're not only better than Peach and Jigglyppuff, but also better than Sheik and maybe even Falco.

Does less landing lag on dair make it like, +8 on block or something that I'm missing?
Use Marth's Neut-B on a shielding opponent.....that is a HUGE buff lol.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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Of course, but, horizontal aerial mobility isn't a factor there. Vertical aerial mobility certainly is, I'm sure.

And Luigi has his wavedash, Brawl Jab, and Brawl Down-B, which all help with speed and zoning.
He might have an amazing wavedash and the brawl jab (+ the old amazing n-air and an easier recovery) but the major issue with Luigi is the same as in melee (+Brawl and 64 in some ways)

He might have a long recovery but it is rather predictable with pretty low priority outside of the misfire. The proper roulette is nice though. Many options work way too well (such as Fox's shine...but that works vs. most chars so otherwise as well)If you hit Luigi's shield, he has issues punishing properly due to it knocking him back so much. Certain chars just keep Luigi out forever or as long as they can. I personally hate the Ivysaur matchup for this reason.

On a very different note, I would potentially give GaW his bucket break back even if it only helps a little bit. He is way too light for how big the combos are in Project M. Or make him good by giving hm a roulette for his 9-hammer........actually no, plz no.
 

Scythe

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they need to make gaw faster, he's like a little slower than his melee counterpart, or at least it feels that way to me. Also he dies at like jiggs percents but has a crappy recovery for the most part.
 

bubbaking

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When I mean terrible recovery, I mean easily predictable/gimp-able it is. Luigi doesn't have very good aerial mobility, so his extreme floatiness doesn't exactly help vary his recovery. Both the Brawl tornado and Brawl Up-b only really help vertically and even if it does launch him towards the stage ever so slightly, it's still easily punishable. Not to mention that its really punishable upon landing if you miss the edge. The green missile is still as punishable as it was before. Sweetspotting the ledge certainly helps, but anyone good enough at edgeguarding can easily find a way around this. Maybe saying terrible is a little bit of a stretch, but I don't think it's good by any means. Imo, he's outshined in a lot of places.
The Brawl tornado is basically two DJs plus it gives Luigi some needed protection. If you try to gimp Luigi, he can just use his misfire, as long as he's been saving it and only using regular ones up 'till that point. The upB let's him recover a little further from the ledge now. Let me tell you how Luigis usually recover in Melee. They missile to a point a good distance directly below the ledge, a very awkward position to try to gimp them. Then they tornado to gain some height and/or chase you off the ledge if you're trying to edgehog them. If they still need to, they use their DJ + aerials to further rise and cover themselves. Then they upB. If you were still on the ledge after that, you get knocked off and maybe subsequently gimped.

Drawbacks to this strategy:
  • Tornado has to be 'primed' onstage first.
  • Luigi can be hit somewhat easily out of the tornado at the end.
  • Misfires are unpredictable and unreliable.
  • Missile can't be sweetspotted.
  • The upB only really goes straight up and down. You have to hug the stage when you're ready to use it, so you're not really allowed to mix up your recovery much before getting to that point. Once you hit him away once, he's usually done.
ALL of these drawbacks have been addressed. Tornado doesn't have to be primed anymore, I think it gains more height, and it can be acted out of sooner. Misfires can be stored and used when needed. If the opponent threatens you, misfire in his face and force your way onstage. Green Missile can be sweetspotted so the opponent can't just depend on gimping Luigi after the missiles. The upB goes much further horizontally after the ascent. This means that Luigi can still get another shot at recovering as long as he DI's high after the gimp attempt. It isn't a once and done deal.

IMO, Luigi has a recovery that's around.....the middle when it comes to how good it is compared to the rest of the cast, not great but not bad either. The Brawl tornado helps a lot and the new Brawl upB lets him go horizontally enough for it to be a great blessing. Luigi doesn't have to 'hug' the stage anymore and can upB from a little bit of a distance now. There's NO way the Green Missile is "still as punishable as it was before" when Luigi now has full control over releasing the misfire and and can just release it on reaction to your edgeguarding attempt. Misfire was scary before but it's outright dangerous now.
 

Scythe

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I already posted this in the social thread but i'll post it here since maybe the stream can alter some opinions on the tier list when you see some of the lesser used chars.

Kirk and I are hosting another PM/melee tourney over in Chicago and we're going to try streaming this time. So tune in this saturday to see some good matches in both PM and melee. At our tourneys we usually get Metroid, Rat, Kels, Kirk and others so there's always some good matches and we tend to play some interesting characters like Bowser and Charizard.

http://www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime
 

DMG

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Luigi recovers much better in PM than Melee, and he should given how easy some of the recoveries were made.

Edit: I'm nearly certain G^W is not slower than his Melee counterpart.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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Not that my list means anything around here, but I figured I'd do it for fun

Melee Top - Can compete with anyone

:fox: :falco: :sheik: :marth: :jigglypuff: :peach: :mario2:

Melee High - Viable, the lower half(after DK) could use maybe 1 or 2 small things to help

:ike: :lucas: :sonic: :diddy: :lucario: :toonlink: :wolf: :gw: :bowser2: :dk2: :charizard: :ivysaur: :zelda: :ganondorf: :falcon: :snake: :link2: :luigi2:

Melee Mid - Needs some help

:zerosuitsamus:


I left out the characters I don't play or have a clue about really
 

DMG

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Is that list ordered? If so, I question why G^W is higher than DK Falcon Ganon and Snake. Strongly question.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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Is that list ordered? If so, I question why G^W is higher than DK Falcon Ganon and Snake. Strongly question.
Yea, my friend plays G&W ALL the time, I think people seriously underestimate him, ******* bacon, his moves stay out long, they're powerful and some have good range, this is just my observation, don't take it too seriously but it comes from playing against G&W constantly

I do need to switch something though

I don't think the order makes too much of a difference from one character to the next until it gets halfway down
 

Vashimus

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So I dabbled with Luigi for the first time extensively and tried to see what bubba was saying. So lemme get this straight. In order to store a misfire, you need to use side-B enough times until eventually one of the times you flash a green, then hold it all the way and release it to store it by canceling it to a regular charge.

That is the dumbest way I've ever heard to hold a charge.

:phone:
 

TheReflexWonder

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On a very different note, I would potentially give GaW his bucket break back even if it only helps a little bit. He is way too light for how big the combos are in Project M.
Bucket Brake only works in Brawl because you can do attacks while still in knockback after a certain point. Outside of specific situations (bouncing off a wall/floor/etc.), that doesn't happen in PM, so unless we entirely changed the way knockback works, Bucket Braking can't really be a thing.

Was there ever an official changelist for 2.5?
I don't think it's been released yet. Should be up soon.

So I dabbled with Luigi for the first time extensively and tried to see what bubba was saying. So lemme get this straight. In order to store a misfire, you need to use side-B enough times until eventually one of the times you flash a green, then hold it all the way and release it to store it by canceling it to a regular charge.

That is the dumbest way I've ever heard to hold a charge.

:phone:
You don't have to hold it all the way in order to save it. That Forward-B just has to be anything but completely uncharged.
 

bubbaking

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What Reflex said. Just hold B until the green flash goes away, which isn't long. The next time you Missile, you'll get another green flash (the one you stored). If you don't want to use it, repeat the process. Rinse and repeat until you actually want to Misfire. Then just tap B when you sideB. I believe Luigi is also still cycling through the 'Misfire Roulette' when Missiling with a stored Misfire, and if this is the case, then it's possible to manipulate the 'roulette' so that Luigi gets two misfires in a row. Can somebody confirm that for me?

Edit: Also, waiting a little bit to store the Misfire really isn't that bad, considering most good Melee Luigi mains charge up the Missile for a good while before releasing it to avoid being in their opponents' gimp range.
 

kibago

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I'm of the opinion that if anyone puts serious time into Lucario and figures out some crazy combos, he could be top tier. I never really see anyone play him though. He's got potential
 

TheReflexWonder

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Just SDI more against Lucario. A lot of stuff still works, but he has to follow intelligently, etc. It helps.
 

Archangel

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I feel like 2.1 Lucario was pretty high up in the right hands. Not so sure about 2.5 Lucario though. The change to his down-B feel like what I imagine changes to spacies would be if they got rid of their 1 frame shine.
 

DMG

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So I dabbled with Luigi for the first time extensively and tried to see what bubba was saying. So lemme get this straight. In order to store a misfire, you need to use side-B enough times until eventually one of the times you flash a green, then hold it all the way and release it to store it by canceling it to a regular charge.

That is the dumbest way I've ever heard to hold a charge.

:phone:
No

The first part is right. The green flash comes at the first "charge" of Luigi side B. When it will come is random. Once you see the flash, you can either let go immediately to use Misfire on the spot, or charge side B for any length of time afterwards to store it (also if you get hit or die after you see the green flash, you will keep that misfire charge).
 

DrinkingFood

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He might have an amazing wavedash and the brawl jab (+ the old amazing n-air and an easier recovery) but the major issue with Luigi is the same as in melee (+Brawl and 64 in some ways)

He might have a long recovery but it is rather predictable with pretty low priority outside of the misfire. The proper roulette is nice though. Many options work way too well (such as Fox's shine...but that works vs. most chars so otherwise as well)If you hit Luigi's shield, he has issues punishing properly due to it knocking him back so much. Certain chars just keep Luigi out forever or as long as they can. I personally hate the Ivysaur matchup for this reason.

On a very different note, I would potentially give GaW his bucket break back even if it only helps a little bit. He is way too light for how big the combos are in Project M. Or make him good by giving hm a roulette for his 9-hammer........actually no, plz no.
Luigi's primary problem isn't his recovery... his recovery wouldn't be an issue if he weren't a character bad enough to get sent off stage so easily.

Also, bucket braking only worked because of how brawl handled hitstun and character momentum. Hitstun is back to melee, so it already won't work, and that isn't going to change. I believe there's been some changes to how the game handled momentum too (that being that character launch speed and the character's movement speeds are completely separate, iirc) that wouldn't allow it to happen. It's not removed from GaW because someone wanted GaW to be bad (although that would be a stupid way to make him better) but because the current game mechanics won't allow it.
 

PK Gaming

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oooh

just got my hands on P.M and i'm loving it so far (though i'm having trouble getting used to pit's up B... why was his recovery nerfed?)

is there any truth to the tier list in the OP? It seems outdated, and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the game.
 

DMG

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Some of the OP tier list looks good. Other parts look ****ty because people place DK too low or have huge Mario boners
 
D

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(though i'm having trouble getting used to pit's up B... why was his recovery nerfed?)
Brawl Up-B wouldn't have fit into a Melee environment. It was too good as a recovery move and slowed gameplay down. On the bright side, he still has a great recovery and is hard to gimp.
 

Greenpoe

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oooh

just got my hands on P.M and i'm loving it so far (though i'm having trouble getting used to pit's up B... why was his recovery nerfed?)
Many characters have had their recoveries nerfed - Sheik, ROB, G&W, etc. It's part of the overall philosophy of the game as a return to Melee. His recovery is very good though, and the overall environment (i.e., worse recoveries+faster fall speeds) makes Pit very good at gimping, and he can still glide afterall.
 

bubbaking

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Speed, zoning, BnBs

None of those is in possession of Weegee
Well, actually, I'd argue he has all of those. His WD and tornado give him speed and the tornado buffs really emphasize that. His fireballs and ftilt both do a really good job of zoning. Combined with his long WD, Luigi's always been pretty good at zoning, even in Melee. A really fast fsmash also helps with this. As for BnBs, Luigi's got some pretty devastating BnB combos on pretty much everyone. He has the dreaded Mario uthrow/dthrow combination and he has really powerful aerials to take advantage of those. If you're quick/creative, you can net stuff off of utilt, usmash, and dsmash, as well as TCs. Since his WD is so good, Luigi can even get little 'pseudo-combos' off things like his ftilt and fthrow. Also, even though you shouldn't depend on it, bad DI makes Luigi's combos seem like a NIGHTMARE! :scared:

And Luigi has his wavedash, Brawl Jab, and Brawl Down-B, which all help with speed and zoning.
May I ask what Luigi's Brawl jab has over his Melee jab? An improved hitbox? :confused:
 

DMG

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No, no he does not have the dreaded Mario Uthrow/Dthrow. What he has are a worse version of those throws if people know to DI behind him/far away: Uthrow is ok because you can wavedash back and still get people but besides that it's not even close. Mario's throws are amazing
 

bubbaking

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If you want to see what kind of combos Luigi had on FFers back in Melee, I urge you to remember.....HOW GOOD IS ARMADA'S LUIGI? :estatic::colorful:

Edit: Uh, DMG, if Luigi can WD back and still get you after uthrow, that's all he needs. Between utilt, usmash, and ALL his aerials, he can do whatever he wants to make the throw work. Remember that Luigi is using his uthrow mostly on FFers. Also, I believe Luigi can still CG FFers with uthrow. As for dthrow, I've never had someone that wasn't a FFer escape my basic dthrow combos. Never.

And I just saw that new post at 3:02 AM after all that.
 

DMG

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Combo's on FF yes, his actual throws aren't nearly as good as Mario's though because the neutral angle already sends people away instead of centered with the character
 

bubbaking

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Not much tech skill is needed from the brawl characters to perform well IMO. But from playing this demo with friends since its release i don't see Wario, lucario or Sonic no less than top of B Tier with A being top.
Soooo yeahhhh
You know, not requiring tech skill doesn't make a character better than one who does. Perfect example is Fox compared to Sheik. Lucario actually requires a fair bit of tech skill to do well with him. You can't just mash buttons and win, contrary to popular opinion.

I could agree with your Lucario placement, though.....if you have A Tier below S Tier. :p

I won with a character who was given new mix-ups and improvements on almost every one of his moves, one who retains the general feel of Brawl Wario, mostly against people who had about two weeks to practice (compared to my forever, since I'm a playtester).
Forgot to mention that you're also the #1 vBrawl Wario main in the country. :smirk:

I don't think any of the 2.5 newcomers will end up being higher than Mid Tier, but, as always, it remains to be seen.
Blasphemy! You really think that about Diddy? :c
 
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