Tier List Speculation

[Juushichi]

How the mighty has fallen from A to B+.

If you think MK beats Sonic by nairing in place, I am not sure what to tell you.

Let me see if I can cook up a 2.6 Tier list. last I remember, mine was pretty similar to Strong Bad's.

 

[trash?]

about ~80% of anything sonic can do w/r/t spindashes is denied by the fact that MK never trades w/ transcending hitboxes, with MK's other pokes covering basically everything else

my spin > your spin

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But there are lots of non-spin options that are good and at least marginally useful in the matchup. Sonic shouldn't be limited to spinning in his spacing/approach tools.

 

[DrinkingFood]

MK never trades w/ transcending hitboxes

what do you mean by this? transcendent hitboxes trade better than anything else in the game because they don't cancel out other hitboxes. If MK never trades it's probs because his everything is quick and disjointed.

 

[trash?]

exaggeration, friends. I'm not saying MK should just stand and shffl nair to victory always, but that my approach can be realllllly lazy and sonic has to put in silly amounts of effort by comparison

I dislike the idea of actually ranking point by point, since it's better to compare via groups, but gotta appease the tier list averaging lords

 

[guedes the brawler]

isn't i better to consider each matchup separatedly and THEN a tier list...?

 

[trash?]

this is because there's 34 characters and each character has 33 distinct matchups (this is assuming that we can just skip mirror matches)

so that would be... 1122 matchups to take notes of (assuming I'm doing the math right. might be less b/c this might assume fox v falco and falco v fox to be two different MUs, but you get the idea). see the problem here?

 

[Ogopogo]

11. Mario (dude's got stubby arms, lords can outspace him but most don't fully understand how)

This. Mario's stumpy limbs might be his biggest weakness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, having a good matchup against Luigi probably isn't as important/useful/relevant as having a good matchup against Fox or Sheik.

 

[Nausicaa]

...and now for something completely different.

original rough-draft

Spoiler

A Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight
Mario
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi

B Tier
Snake
Falco
Pit
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Bowser
Marth
Link
Ike
Ness

C Tier
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucario
Zelda
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

S Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight

A Tier (more polarizing and/or gimmick) < thing that trumps them from S Tier
Mario < staying where he's trying to lock you out of to make him commit
Fox < taking risks for small rewards to start a stock elimination process
Zero Suit Samus < never committing to maintain control from positioning
Luigi < gaining small rewards for control while avoiding possible risks
Peach < out-mobilizing and avoiding possible risks to make her commit

B+ Tier
Snake < (mini-Peach with less diversity but more ToD's and polarity both ways)
Pit < (mini-Mario with more stale-mate/lock-down flexibility, but less good polarity)
Falco < (mini-Lucas with more polarity both ways, but less flexibility in lock-down/process)
Captain Falcon < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down, but more polarity both ways)
Charizard < (mini-Zero Suit Samus with less diversity and more polarity both ways)
Donkey Kong < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down/stale-mate, but polarity both ways)

B Tier
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Link
Bowser
Marth

B- Tier
Ike
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness

C Tier (stuff)
Jigglypuff
Diddy Kong
Sonic
Lucario
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

I'll probably update this once before 3.0, but this is a thrown together rough-draft of what I think the Tiers look like.

C Tier are the only characters that I consider complete, but are notably not-as-good as the rest. They're basically good enough, just a tweak or two and it's all good.
D Tier are the only characters that I don't think can compete, they're so close, and great in niche ways, but there's just a touch missing that holds them back there.


Edit: Updating it periodically...

 

[KayB]

Aside from Fox, Lucas, Ivysaur, and Bowser, I'm actually kind of okay with that list.

 

[MLGF]

I'm not gonna lie, Bowser reminds me of CS:Extend Tager.
If you don't know exactly how to deal with him, he's gonna wreck you.
If you know how to deal with him, he still has options that could lead to your defeat.

B tier for sure. He's perfect on that list.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm trying to sort it slowly. Not final, but trying to make sense of things for myself before I finalize it.

I simply noticed there's a batch of ToD-style characters at the top of B, and there was a distinction between the top few in A and the bottom few, being polarizing vs overall efficient.

Still cleaning it... Got the original on note-pad for reference.

 

[The_NZA]

...and now for something completely different.

original rough-draft

Spoiler

A Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight
Mario
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi

B Tier
Snake
Falco
Pit
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Bowser
Marth
Link
Ike
Ness

C Tier
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucario
Zelda
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

S Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight

A Tier (more polarizing and/or gimmick) < thing that trumps them from S Tier
Mario < staying where he's trying to lock you out of to make him commit
Fox < taking risks for small rewards to start a stock elimination process
Zero Suit Samus < never committing to maintain control from positioning
Luigi < gaining small rewards for control while avoiding possible risks
Peach < out-mobilizing and avoiding possible risks to make her commit

B+ Tier
Snake < (mini-Peach with less diversity but more ToD's and polarity both ways)
Pit < (mini-Mario with more stale-mate/lock-down flexibility, but less good polarity)
Falco < (mini-Lucas with more polarity both ways, but less flexibility in lock-down/process)
Captain Falcon < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down, but more polarity both ways)
Charizard < (mini-Zero Suit Samus with less diversity and more polarity both ways)
Donkey Kong < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down/stale-mate, but polarity both ways)

B Tier
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Link
Bowser
Marth

B- Tier
Ike
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness

C Tier (stuff)
Jigglypuff
Diddy Kong
Sonic
Lucario
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

I'll probably update this once before 3.0, but this is a thrown together rough-draft of what I think the Tiers look like.

C Tier are the only characters that I consider complete, but are notably not-as-good as the rest. They're basically good enough, just a tweak or two and it's all good.
D Tier are the only characters that I don't think can compete, they're so close, and great in niche ways, but there's just a touch missing that holds them back there.


Edit: Updating it periodically...

No way, IMO, that Ness is better than DK, Jiggs, or Lucario. I just don't see it.

 

[DMG]

>Peach
>Out-mobilizing


Pick one

 

[Nausicaa]

NZA, I could easily throw B- with C, or C with B-, which I've been tempted too a LOT. lol
I consider them essentially on-par with each other. Here's the little difference-makers for me.

Lucario has a hard time in raw-neutral with a lack of stale-mate-breakers, which will take a toll long-term if controlled play doesn't work out for him and a well-spread competition can stall him out.
Jiggs has more polarity both ways, and I figure that's a factor that might give her a better match-up spread through advantages in numbers, sure, but it would then hurt her success in any long-drawn or well-spread competition since it takes more of a toll with certain win/loss chances and ratios.
Diddy (I assume you meant by DK) is mix of those 2, in the sense that polarity plays a factor in his stale-mate-breaking regarding raw-neutral and is a matter of how much of a toll it takes long-term, and if well-spread competition will still allow him to play a control game from there.

Otherwise, they're all solid. Ness could fit in well with them, but I'm thinking he has enough stale-mate-breaking to make raw-neutral function, and not enough polarity to lose enough match-ups through numbers for well-spread competition to shut him down.

Hope that makes sense a tad. :D

This isn't final, working on it, but these kinds of comments help me think of things a little thoroughly in specific places/ways. Thanks for comment.

 

[JOE!]

this is because there's 34 characters and each character has 33 distinct matchups (this is assuming that we can just skip mirror matches)

so that would be... 1122 matchups to take notes of (assuming I'm doing the math right. might be less b/c this might assume fox v falco and falco v fox to be two different MUs, but you get the idea). see the problem here?

Did the math and it's only 561 Matchups if you exclude Dittoes and (X vs Y) vs (Y vs X) stuff....

but yeah, still a ton lol

 

[The_NZA]

NZA, I could easily throw B- with C, or C with B-, which I've been tempted too a LOT. lol
I consider them essentially on-par with each other. Here's the little difference-makers for me.

Lucario has a hard time in raw-neutral with a lack of stale-mate-breakers, which will take a toll long-term if controlled play doesn't work out for him and a well-spread competition can stall him out.
Jiggs has more polarity both ways, and I figure that's a factor that might give her a better match-up spread through advantages in numbers, sure, but it would then hurt her success in any long-drawn or well-spread competition since it takes more of a toll with certain win/loss chances and ratios.
Diddy (I assume you meant by DK) is mix of those 2, in the sense that polarity plays a factor in his stale-mate-breaking regarding raw-neutral and is a matter of how much of a toll it takes long-term, and if well-spread competition will still allow him to play a control game from there.

Otherwise, they're all solid. Ness could fit in well with them, but I'm thinking he has enough stale-mate-breaking to make raw-neutral function, and not enough polarity to lose enough match-ups through numbers for well-spread competition to shut him down.

Hope that makes sense a tad. :D

This isn't final, working on it, but these kinds of comments help me think of things a little thoroughly in specific places/ways. Thanks for comment.

What stale mate breaking do you think Ness has? Besides pkfire? Because the sense I get is that bananna set ups, peanuts, and aura sphere do plenty to put a timer on the opponent. Whereas with Ness, if you aren't committing, you are pkfiring. Which is great if your opponent doesn't know how to respond...but after some matchup experience, the potency of Ness's neutral game becomes much worse.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Will never be satisfied with the tier list until Ike is SSS+++Aether.

Clearly I should just go back to playing 2.1

 

[DMG]

Diddy's neutral game would be 5x better if you could not swat bananas. I understand that it's practical AND makes sense that people can hit them as they travel, but it makes his life so much harder. It's also abnormally hard to get the strong Side B, and the nerfed window for Side B kicking could probably be relaxed some. He's got "short + annoying" going for him but I think he needs help being less gimmicky and cheesy.

 

[Nguz95]

Diddy's neutral game would be 5x better if you could not swat bananas. I understand that it's practical AND makes sense that people can hit them as they travel, but it makes his life so much harder. It's also abnormally hard to get the strong Side B, and the nerfed window for Side B kicking could probably be relaxed some. He's got "short + annoying" going for him but I think he needs help being less gimmicky and cheesy.

This is Diddy we're talking about. The monkey is all cheese.

 

[Oracle]

I want a little more data before i take averages, so keep em coming! i'll leave it open until friday or saturday

 

[Banjodorf]

Something just sort of bugs me seeing A/B/C/D/E tiers rather than S/A+/A/A-/B+ etc.

I guess it's that since P:M strives for balance, and generally all characters are viable (mostly), it presents a bigger gap than there really is. Tiers for stuff like SF4, P4A and BB:CSE usually only go to B- or C because of balance, so I guess it's just a little frightening to see some of these lists reach almost Brawl levels of visual gaps when they aren't anywhere near that huge.

I dunno.

 

[Daftatt]

...and now for something completely different.

original rough-draft

Spoiler

A Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight
Mario
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi

B Tier
Snake
Falco
Pit
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Bowser
Marth
Link
Ike
Ness

C Tier
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Lucario
Zelda
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

S Tier
Lucas
Wario
Wolf
Metaknight

A Tier (more polarizing and/or gimmick) < thing that trumps them from S Tier
Mario < staying where he's trying to lock you out of to make him commit
Fox < taking risks for small rewards to start a stock elimination process
Zero Suit Samus < never committing to maintain control from positioning
Luigi < gaining small rewards for control while avoiding possible risks
Peach < out-mobilizing and avoiding possible risks to make her commit

B+ Tier
Snake < (mini-Peach with less diversity but more ToD's and polarity both ways)
Pit < (mini-Mario with more stale-mate/lock-down flexibility, but less good polarity)
Falco < (mini-Lucas with more polarity both ways, but less flexibility in lock-down/process)
Captain Falcon < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down, but more polarity both ways)
Charizard < (mini-Zero Suit Samus with less diversity and more polarity both ways)
Donkey Kong < (mini-Metaknight with less lock-down/stale-mate, but polarity both ways)

B Tier
Pikachu
Toon Link
Sheik
Ivysaur
Link
Bowser
Marth

B- Tier
Ike
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness

C Tier (stuff)
Jigglypuff
Diddy Kong
Sonic
Lucario
ROB

D Tier
King Dedede
Ganondorf
Squirtle

I'll probably update this once before 3.0, but this is a thrown together rough-draft of what I think the Tiers look like.

C Tier are the only characters that I consider complete, but are notably not-as-good as the rest. They're basically good enough, just a tweak or two and it's all good.
D Tier are the only characters that I don't think can compete, they're so close, and great in niche ways, but there's just a touch missing that holds them back there.


Edit: Updating it periodically...

IMO Squirtle is really good but no one has taken him to his full potential, he can have stage mobility rivaling sonic if people could master all of his shell shifting and slinging.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He can have stage mobility rivaling sonic if people could master all of his shell shifting and slinging.

No, he can't. Too much commitment on his movement options, and not enough overall coverage on the attacks he can use out of them in comparison to Sonic. He's significantly slower and less threatening with it.

 

[Juushichi]

You feel pretty emphatic about this., Reflex.

Also, someone mentioned it in an earlier post about tier letters, I more or less agree. My lists go from A+ (FFS or FF_) to about C+ or B-. I still have to decide if a character like Ganondorf is C+ or B- in comparison to slightly higher tiered characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's just frustrating that people talk about a super-technical character with loads of potential when he still struggles to get around having rather weak fundamental stats overall. People are okay because they expect some monster of a character to be locked away, waiting to be discovered, when I really don't see that happening.

I could be wrong (and it's happened before), but this is a situation I feel I am -really- confident on, and it's a downer. 2.6b Squirtle isn't making waves, and he would only do worse in a 3.0 environment.

 

[Burnsy]

I think you are.

I've played Squirtle a hell of a lot here in AZ tournaments and Big House 3 as well as in friendlies at LTC and Nerd Rage. I consistently come across impressions of "wow he's actually kinda good wtf?". This was the same response I got with Lucas, another character who I had always suspect was good despite people were putting him at the bottom of their lists (go ahead and tell me they made changes to Lucas, there's no way the 2.1-2.6 changes were enough to move him from D/C- to a B+/A- average.)

Dont get me wrong, I couldn't place squirtle any higher than a few spots below dead middle. I do think its insanity to see him in the bottom 5, especially behind characters like D3. I'm sure no one will take my opinion seriously, especially following up from Reflex's comments, but for what its worth I do think that I have a deep and intimate understand of Squirtles moves, traits, and MU nuances and I find players are often unaware of very important squirtle qualities (invincible tail on all tail attacks or different moves having different levels of KB armor, and shellshift being a different move from withdraw, as a few examples).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't really care about how kinds of impressions you get in your area, though, the same way that my winning with 2.5 Ivysaur didn't mean she was even an average character. Asking a bunch of people you regularly beat (or even just regularly play) how good your character is doesn't make for the most comprehensive sample size.

I feel reasonably confident in his listing as a bottom-5 character. I don't see him offering much that isn't done better elsewhere or consistent against a wide variety of characters. It's all about what they're doing now and what they're capable of, and I just don't see an awful lot in either position.

 

[Banjodorf]

I don't think it's wise to pretend he's a worthless character either though. In Brawl maybe, but I've seen viability in Squirtle far more than never.

 

[Juushichi]

The general consensus was that with fatigue removed (and maybe some GR stuff) that Squirtle was probably a mid-tier character, believe it or not.

Which is better than most of the current perception (in comparison) of PM Squirtle.

 

[Banjodorf]

The general consensus was that with fatigue removed (and maybe some GR stuff) that Squirtle was probably a mid-tier character, believe it or not.

Which is better than most of the current perception (in comparison) of PM Squirtle.

True, although isnt the gap between characters like Falco/Lucas -> Squirtle/Dorf much, much smaller than Dorf/C. Falcon -> Meta Knight in Brawl? Or even Diddy/Oli, since MK was in a league of his own.

 

[Burnsy]

I don't really care about how kinds of impressions you get in your area, though, the same way that my winning with 2.5 Ivysaur didn't mean she was even an average character. Asking a bunch of people you regularly beat (or even just regularly play) how good your character is doesn't make for the most comprehensive sample size.

I feel reasonably confident in his listing as a bottom-5 character. I don't see him offering much that isn't done better elsewhere or consistent against a wide variety of characters. It's all about what they're doing now and what they're capable of, and I just don't see an awful lot in either position.

It's not only based on my region. It's also based on people I played at LTC, Nerd Rage, and Big House 3. I didn't solicit their responses. And it's not just based on player impressions, but critical thinking that takes into account as many factors as I can possibly consider.

Anyways, I'm not trying to win you over with my words because I know that will never happen; you want visible results. Just offering up a dissenting opinion to everyone else.

 

[KayB]

It's not just visible results honestly. That would just show how much the losing player doesn't know about the match up. Results only help back up solid statements behind a character explaining why he's good/bad, his match ups, etc.

 

[Nazo]

Without results I can't really prove that squirtle isn't bottom 5, but I'm positive he isn't that low.
Like Burnsy said, it's a bit absurd to be placing Squirtle under characters like D3 and Ganondorf; we're being a little too close minded here.

 

[Juushichi]

For the record, I think DDD is a fair amount better than people believe he is.

 

[KayB]

Are we though? DDD I honestly can't say much about, but people here talk as if Ganon has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and everybody else here doesn't really talk about Squirtle's faults except Reflex. I mean Squirtle isn't that great, but aside from Reflex, the biggest criticism he gets around here is "he's midtier." Yes Ganon isn't a great character by any means, but he's still very good in his own rights and he is by far from comparable to something like Melee Pichu. I don't think it's such a big upset to put Squirtle below Ganon.

 

[JOE!]

I just dont get why people say Ganon is just terribad... From what I've seen a good ganon can certainly hold their own.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

DDD's saving grace is that he has the largest grab range in the game and the fact that all his moves are absurdly powerful with absurd range. While some of his moves lack priority and he can get mutilated if closed upon, he's really not that bad. He has enough tools to stay somewhat mobile and far away from an opponent and only the likes of falco and sheik can burn him with approaches. And Ivy, because Ivy is floaty enough that DDD has few followups after initial hits on her (unlike falco or sheik) and Ivy can wait outside of DDDs range and either force him to overextend or just poke at him with projectiles/bair/whatever the heck Ivy has.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I've spent a lot of time hunting for hidden viability and tools within characters that are largely considered lacking. At least believe that I'm not naysaying for its own sake.