Tier List Speculation

[Fortress]

I just dont get why people say Ganon is just terribad... From what I've seen a good ganon can certainly hold their own.

I think it's the fact that even though he's as powerful as he is now, with some great spacers and aerials, that he's got some kind of steep learning curve when it comes to dealing with zoning and such. I mean, he's got nothing for that besides dodging, shielding, and punching the projectiles out. I love Ganondorf, personally.

As far as tier speculation goes, I wouldn't throw Ganondorf in low-tier anymore, somewhere in bottom-mid. I think his placement is due to his narrow role of an up-close combatant, to be honest.

My picks for low-tier would probably go to GnW, D3, DK (questionable, but, just because a few people can make him shine means he's got potential and is hard to learn, not mid/high-tier), Charizard, Diddy Kong, and maybe Squirtle. I guess I don't have concrete reasons for my placements, outside of GnW being a polarizing character who is quick to get to the blast line, but I feel like a few of the ones I mentioned are down there.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

My low tier is everyone that's not a spacie, sheik, mario, wario, ivy, or snake.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

DK is not bottom tier.

Trust me, he's a monster. If you had seen the things I've seen... I have scars, man.

He's mid-high tier probably.

 

[| Kailex |]

GnW and DDD

 

[Fortress]

DK is not bottom tier.

Trust me, he's a monster. If you had seen the things I've seen... I have scars, man.

He's mid-high tier probably.

A steep learning curve, with no ranged capabilities outside of long reach, with a subpar recovery places him no higher than mid, in my opinion. Yes, DK has some very devastating abilities for those who can dedicate themselves to him, and your roommate has trounced me with him, but he's mid-tier at most.

 

[JOE!]

My low tier is everyone that's not a spacie, sheik, mario, wario, ivy, or snake.

You have much yet to learn

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

My low tier is everyone that's not a spacie, sheik, mario, wario, ivy, or snake.

Oh wait and meta knight, MK's not a low tier.

You have much yet to learn

literally I was posting this reply while you posted this

 

[Fortress]

You have much yet to learn

Now my power knows no rival.​

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

A steep learning curve, with no ranged capabilities outside of long reach, with a subpar recovery places him no higher than mid, in my opinion. Yes, DK has some very devastating abilities for those who can dedicate themselves to him, and your roommate has trounced me with him, but he's mid-tier at most.

First off, learning curve doesn't really matter for tier placement.

DK deals with projectiles better than most heavies. He's fast, powerful, has great range, and an amazing grab game. These traits more than makes up for his weaknesses in my mind.

His only real problems are a poor vertical recovery and his easily comboable physics and size. His recovery is better than you give him credit for, I feel, not that it's particularly great. It's a weakness, for sure, but not enough to shove DK into bottom tier.

 

[JOE!]

First off, learning curve doesn't really matter for tier placement.

THIS, SO MUCH THIS!

Learning curve really only matters for popularity I reckon, as the harder it is to play somebody the less people will pick them up unless they are ******** good if you learn them. For how good a character is: their difficulty to *LEARN* (ie: not difficulty in playing consistently, etc) shouldn't be a factor as it should be assumed for sake of argument that the character in question would be played optimally.

It also SHOULD NOT BE A BALANCING FACTOR as there WILL BE PEOPLE THAT CAN DO SAID "HARD" THING EASILY, thus rendering the "drawback" meaningless.

DK deals with projectiles better than most heavies. He's fast, powerful, has great range, and an amazing grab game. These traits more than makes up for his weaknesses in my mind.

His only real problems are a poor vertical recovery and his easily comboable physics and size. His recovery is better than you give him credit for, I feel, not that it's particularly great. It's a weakness, for sure, but not enough to shove DL into bottom tier.

DK is like a sort of Lightning Bruiser, he is deceptively fast all-around with his only weaknesses really being that he simply is easier to combo and has poor vertical recovery. That said, lets see you try and KO a DK in a non-downward manner [/quote]

 

[Burnsy]

A steep learning curve, with no ranged capabilities outside of long reach, with a subpar recovery places him no higher than mid, in my opinion. Yes, DK has some very devastating abilities for those who can dedicate themselves to him, and your roommate has trounced me with him, but he's mid-tier at most.

Not agreeing/disagreeing with your assessment of DK, but I did want to mention that "learning curve" is not a factor that should affect a characters placement. You should be assuming the highest level of play.

 

[Fortress]

First off, learning curve doesn't really matter for tier placement.

What does it mean to be high-tier when the character in question is difficult to pick up for more reasons than a technical depth (because, if that were the case, spacies would be low-tier by that logic ('by that logic' being a phrase I can't stand using))? As for how a character's learning curve affects their general standing with players, I'm sticking to my guns on that one. A high learning curve to pull off a narrow role of grappler is my reasoning behind that. DK's great, mind you, but his weaknesses are glaring enough for me to think of him as no higher than mid-middle tier.

DK deals with projectiles better than most heavies. He's fast, powerful, has great range, and an amazing grab game. These traits more than makes up for his weaknesses in my mind.

I don't see DK as the kind of character that has the tools at hand (or fist) to deal with zoning the way another zoner would. I mean, yes, he could punch 'rangs and leaves out of the air, but where does that leave him? At best, he has a rough time approaching characters who can just as soon shift from a ranged rushdown to a campy retreat, limiting his options which are already limited to close-range attacks (as 'close-range' as his long-reaching attacks are)

His only real problems are a poor vertical recovery and his easily comboable physics and size. His recovery is better than you give him credit for, I feel, not that it's particularly great. It's a weakness, for sure, but not enough to shove DL into bottom tier.

I do believe it is, and it's the same limitation in recovery that, in part, keeps Ganondorf as low as he is. Get DK a laughable distance under the stage, and it's game over for him. Yes, this can be construed as compensation for his incredible combo game and powerful attacks, but the fact of the matter is that his recovery game on the whole is poor at best.

 

[trash?]

"having to put effort into a character makes that character bad!!!"

I used up all of my madpoints last time someone tried to tell ppl this for the hundredth time

I'm just going to be grumpy and sit in the corner forever. thanks, jerks

 

[Fortress]

"having to put effort into a character makes that character bad!!!"

If that's how people are going to take that, then, whatever. Here's how you need to be looking at that: 'a steep learning curve to make the most out of a character whose primary function is fighting up close, and still deals with ranged pressure poorly'. DK's hard to learn, incredibly rewarding to do so, but still struggles in the same areas he would before to an extent.

I don't get why that boils down to "oh, if somebody ranks him low-tier, they must think he's bad", but take it whatever way you want.

 

[trash?]

that's unrelated to his learning curve, though, that's a character just having problems

I'm grumpy at the people who think fox isn't all that good in melee because "well he requires some tough timing and tech to deal with, so"

 

[Fortress]

I'm grumpy at the people who think fox isn't all that good in melee because "well he requires some tough timing and tech to deal with, so"

That's ********, and people who think like that that should feel ********.

My take on it, is that for all of his strengths, all of the time having to be put into him, DK still struggles enough in some key areas to push him down to, at most, the bottom of middle-tier.

 

[Banjodorf]

At this point I'm less interested in tiers and more in matchups. Unlike vBrawl it's much easier to succeed with EVERY character, and their placements should more be based on how they deal with things on a character-by-character basis at the highest level of play.

Although I'm really tired, so I'm probably working for the redundancy department today.

 

[Fortress]

That's one of the things that P:M does really well, close the gap between tiers.

 

[JOE!]

At this point I'm less interested in tiers and more in matchups. Unlike vBrawl it's much easier to succeed with EVERY character, and their placements should more be based on how they deal with things on a character-by-character basis at the highest level of play.

Pretty much this.

With all the characters actually being relatively even in that they are all more or less viable, I say it would come down to their match-ups against one another to determine how they do on the whole, as its not a clear cut case of like "anybody in tier X is undoubtedly better and thus anyone below WONT be seen at tournies"

Problem with that though, is that even with the current roster, that is 561ish matchups that need exploring (taking away duplicated match-ups like Zelda vs Mario / Mario vs Zelda, and dittos)

 

[Plum]

Now my power knows no rival.​

ftfy
lolbrawlmemes

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

A steep learning curve, with no ranged capabilities outside of long reach, with a subpar recovery places him no higher than mid, in my opinion..

Sounds like Wario, Marth, and Bowser to me, asides from the long range in Wario's case. And I'm pretty sure no one is going to say that these guys are low...except for Marth, which seems to be the recurring joke round these parts.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

difficulty and learning curve only matters when it installs a skill cap on a character. As the skill level of the players approaches infinity, melee fox because more and more dominant. However, in the real world, nobody is that skilled and physical limitations come into play, thus making fox never able to be the very best that he could be, unless played by a computer. This is different than MK, who could approach that theoretical limit much closer than fox could.
However, that is not the type of learning curve embodied by DK. If people are out there doing it, that means it's possible, and such gameplay should be taken into account when making a tier list. This is what the pmbr did with 2.5 sanic when wizzrobe first exploded. Nobody else was doing it, but wizzrobe was showing that it was possible.

 

[DMG]

OK

1. D3 is not totally helpless. What he is though, is a bulky slow character who hits things away too far to combo, unless you fight a Spacie and can 0-death them off of Uthrow. He gimps offstage in literally the stupidest and most obvious ways, and yet it's probably top 5 in the game because nobody can challenge the kind of range he throws out. He's still stuck in the Brawl mentality of "shield and punish" or Ftilt for spacing, because the rest of the character is booty cakes at approaching or offensively applying pressure.

If you were to take his Fair's range, and ask me if I would implement that move in a Smash game, I would tell you that you are ridiculous. Yet that one move is probably his saving grace from undeniably being the worst character in this fast paced "do your opponent dirty" kind of game. He's bottom 5 somewhere, unless every MU you get is Spacie.


2. Ganon is not hopeless. He's outclassed. Big difference. This game does not favor slower competitors, and he suffers immensely from the unfixed shield pushback. The list of what Ganon can punish OOS has dropped dramatically because of that. What did the game introduce more of? Short, annoying characters who jank around shifting mobility or momentum or do low attacks. Oh yeah, they tend to be pretty safe on shield. OH YEAH, let's count all the new projectiles and the new Brawl characters coming with range! AND Melee people got buffed?!?!? That's like 80% of them... Guess if you can't keep up, you get steamrolled. That's the life Ganon has, no matter how good his character otherwise is.

Part of me doesn't want to believe that he's bot 5 in this game, but honestly Ganon is not viable in this game. You could argue that he's basically "not' viable in Melee, but in this case it's a done deal that he will not be viable no matter how many top players you throw under his wing. Period. What Ganon lacks will keep him down for awhile, unless he gets buffed in huge areas like dashing/grab range or crazy stuff like very fast Fairs. I don't necessarily want to see Ganon tinkered with, beause I enjoy him a lot actually (grab a guy, ruin his world)


3. Squirtle has a below average kit, with tricky goodies sprinkled in, and pretty good mobility. He's the least "bad" of these three because you can at least try to play him dynamically and work things in your favor. There's no real alternative approaching or defensive gameplay for the other two. Because he's short and annoying, he's destined to not totally suck! You think I'm joking, but it's the law of this game and if you look around it's apparent lol.

I dunno if I would put Squirtle in bottom 5, he's "alright". I would put him in the bottom half of the cast no doubt about it, but I dunno if he's worse than people like G&W TL Luigi etc

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Part of me doesn't want to believe that he's bot 5 in this game, but honestly Ganon is not viable in this game.

Well ****.

That hurts to read.

I don't know if I would go as far as that. Not sure if it's my bias as a Ganon main, but I feel he's viable. His problems with the new matchups and such are undeniable though, I'm not going to dispute that...

Oh well, guess I'm just going to have to work hard to prove that he's viable, even if it's going to be an uphill battle.

 

[deadjames]

3. Squirtle has a below average kit, with tricky goodies sprinkled in, and pretty good mobility. He's the least "bad" of these three because you can at least try to play him dynamically and work things in your favor. There's no real alternative approaching or defensive gameplay for the other two. Because he's short and annoying, he's destined to not totally suck! You think I'm joking, but it's the law of this game and if you look around it's apparent lol.

I dunno if I would put Squirtle in bottom 5, he's "alright". I would put him in the bottom half of the cast no doubt about it, but I dunno if he's worse than people like G&W TL Luigi etc

You seem to be contradicting yourself here, if short and annoying = good, then how can G&W, Tink, and Luigi be bad?

 

[Nazo]

Luigi and Tink are completely outclassed by squirtle in the "short and annoying" factor.

 

[DMG]

Luigi isn't short
TL and G^W are short and annoying, and pretty good. They can be in the bottom half of the cast, and still be quite good. They may not be as dominant or as ridiculous as people above them, but still relatively good. I would put my tournament life on the line with any of those over Ganon

 

[deadjames]

Luigi isn't short
TL and G^W are short and annoying, and pretty good. They can be in the bottom half of the cast, and still be quite good. They may not be as dominant or as ridiculous as people above them, but still relatively good. I would put my tournament life on the line with any of those over Ganon

Ah Ok, I understand where you're coming from now also Luigi may not be as short as those other three, but he's not particularly tall either.

Luigi and Tink are completely outclassed by squirtle in the "short and annoying" factor.

Maybe in the short, but definitely not in the annoying. Their projectiles are both much more obnoxious than Squirtle's, Luigi can mobilize himself just as well, if not better, plus they both have better range than Squirtle and more reliable ways of getting in and keeping opponents out, and Luigi has a better grab game. They probably have better OoS options too Luigi and Tink can both nair OoS to escape pressure and Luigi can also up-b OoS for a ridiculous punish. Squirtle is definitely more annoying to edge-guard though it seems like there aren't many moves that can challenge Waterfall and Aqua Jet.

 

[Burnsy]

Luigi can mobilize himself just as well, if not better

Sorry, that's not true. I disagree with most of your other points too, other than maybe Tinks approaching and Luigis grab game. Luigi being equally/more mobile than squirtle is just so wrong that it hurts to read, so I had to single it out. My only guess would be that you are basing this solely on wavedash length and dash speed (which is irrelevant since both characters have dashes so bad they might as well not use them)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

OK

1. D3 is not totally helpless. What he is though, is a bulky slow character who hits things away too far to combo, unless you fight a Spacie and can 0-death them off of Uthrow. He gimps offstage in literally the stupidest and most obvious ways, and yet it's probably top 5 in the game because nobody can challenge the kind of range he throws out. He's still stuck in the Brawl mentality of "shield and punish" or Ftilt for spacing, because the rest of the character is booty cakes at approaching or offensively applying pressure.

basically: DDD too stronk

but no his gimp game is ridiculous, even onstage. Either you can throw a d tilt to poke them off the ledge, or just throw a fsmash that has a spike hitbox. Even if you don't hit the spike hitbox fsmash kills uncharged at 25% neat the edge and at 0% if charged. Zero percent. That's one move to death. Either DDD gets a grab on any character and racks up damage with dthrow and then knocks them off the stage with some random fair to death by edgeguarding or DDD gets caught in an endless jab string which ends in death/gimping for him.

 

[deadjames]

Sorry, that's not true. I disagree with most of your other points too, other than maybe Tinks approaching and Luigis grab game. Luigi being equally/more mobile than squirtle is just so wrong that it hurts to read, so I had to single it out. My only guess would be that you are basing this solely on wavedash length and dash speed (which is irrelevant since both characters have dashes so bad they might as well not use them)

Well you'd be guessing wrong, even with Squirtle's side-b and shell shifting taken into consideration I still feel like Luigi's movement is better, but yeah both of their dashes are pretty terrible.

 

[DMG]

Squirtle's overall movement is much better. I mean they can both Wavedash, but Squirtle can shift his momentum multiple ways and starts off swift in the air. It's more akin if you put Jiggs/Wario together with Luigi, that's how Squirtle can move. Fly at someone, B Reverse a Squirt Gun charge, then Side B back towards them. Just based on his momentum alone from doing B Reverses and shell poop tricks on the ground (I don't know what everything is called, and neither do I care because I play Marth. Squirtle can suck it)

Doesn't mean all of Squirtles options or choices are "good", but he's blessed with more choices (even if they tend to be janky) than most characters. There's honestly not many characters I would put up there with Squirtle if you wanted tons of mobility and tricky momentum shifting: characters tend to not have amazing air movement AND good ground. You usually get one or the other. Luigi certainly only got ground lol

 

[deadjames]

Squirtle's overall movement is much better. I mean they can both Wavedash, but Squirtle can shift his momentum multiple ways and starts off swift in the air. It's more akin if you put Jiggs/Wario together with Luigi, that's how Squirtle can move. Fly at someone, B Reverse a Squirt Gun charge, then Side B back towards them. Just based on his momentum alone from doing B Reverses and shell poop tricks on the ground (I don't know what everything is called, and neither do I care because I play Marth. Squirtle can suck it)

Doesn't mean all of Squirtles options or choices are "good", but he's blessed with more choices (even if they tend to be janky) than most characters. There's honestly not many characters I would put up there with Squirtle if you wanted tons of mobility and tricky momentum shifting: characters tend to not have amazing air movement AND good ground. You usually get one or the other. Luigi certainly only got ground lol

That's a good point, I didn't even take aerial mobility into consideration, and Luigi's is definitely pretty terrible, thanks once again for clarifying things for me.

 

[9bit]

It's been said a lot, but I agree that Dedede plays too much like a Brawl character.

With better OoS options and better mobility (Waddle Dash improvements primarily) I think he could be salvaged though. Below are some individual ideas on improving these areas, they are not meant to all be implemented, just one or two from each.

Better OoS thoughts

• Make grounded Up-B different, like Link's or Bowser's
  • Option 1: just like Link, Dedede does not rise off the ground, instead he pounds stars out on either side of him, like with his landing animation
  • Option 2: Dedede does leave the ground, but shoots off stars around him as he rises
• Shorter jumpsquat animation so he can SHFFL out an aerial faster
• That's all I got...

Mobility thoughts

• Have Waddles stay on stage and turn around when they hit a ledge
• Make the Waddle throwing animation faster (and be able to act faster out of it)
• Let the player throw a Waddle downward closer to themselves for faster immediate Waddle Dash option
• Grounded light Waddle throw upward at an angle that facilitates quick Waddle Dashing
• Double pressing Side-B initiates an immediate Waddle Dash
  • Holding to the side and double-tapping B propels Dedede forward as if he had done a Waddle Dash, but without requiring a Waddle to be chilling on stage already
  • It leaves behind a Waddle in the same way a regular one remains after being used to Dash with
  • Could be set to only work from the ground if you think it makes recovery waaaay too good (which it does)
• Keep run speed the same, but make initial dash a little faster
  • Could improve his DD game

Other thoughts to make Dedede more viable

• More Armor like Bowser has on certain moves
  • The dash attack Armor is great, but the King requires more
• Make all his moves OHKO
• Make him invincible to damage
• Unable to get knocked back
• All his taunts just put him in crouching animation
• The end

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

real talk: give him a better wavedash and give him a dacus that actually does stuff

 

[trash?]

replace all tilts, smashes, aerials and animation with crouching

crouching makes everyone dance to their deaths

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

real talk tho: just map all of his taunt buttons to crouch

 

[Strong Badam]

DK is not bottom tier.

Trust me, he's a monster. If you had seen the things I've seen... I have scars, man.

He's mid-high tier probably.

Definitely Mid-Tier.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It's also important people realize Mid-tier is PRETTY GOOD in Project M.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Definitely Mid-Tier.

I would argue that he's a little higher than mid, but you MIGHT have a better idea of what DK's potential is than I do.

Maybe.