Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[ChronoPenguin]

They shouldn't be, I would hope not. The % is to get a rough idea. If AI vectors then that only makes kills more likely against players at X percents. There is 0 difference based on level. So long as they dont VI downwards a player should live possibly 10% higher but I'm not aero.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I was experimenting with Shulk's Vision against Palutena, and I can varify that Vision is blocked by Palutena's dash attack. No super armor, flat out blocked. So in that situation, doing the tactic of countering a dash attack won't work.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

does that include instant?

 

[Masonomace]

@ ChronoPenguin I'm morely shocked by the Utilt damage needed to KO Jiggly. 146 seems underwhelming as I initially thought Utilt wasn't that bad of a anti-air KO option ):

I was experimenting with Shulk's Vision against Palutena, and I can varify that Vision is blocked by Palutena's dash attack. No super armor, flat out blocked. So in that situation, doing the tactic of countering a dash attack won't work.

Hmm. . .that's weird because her dash attack isn't multiple hits or anything like that so that's odd. Does the situation change when Arts are involved affecting the priority of the moves making contact?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Hmm. . .that's weird because her dash attack isn't multiple hits or anything like that so that's odd. Does the situation change when Arts are involved affecting the priority of the moves making contact?

Since the blocking properties of the dash attack isn't based on damage, changing Monado Arts won't effect it.

Here are the details we've noticed along with @KumaOso

http://smashboards.com/threads/aegis-reflector-two-surprising-findings.372956/

 

[Starfall11]

Hmm. After reading the last few pages. I have some input.

Personally, I feel going straight into Shield in the beginning of a match is a very poor tactic. Yes, it does reduce the damage you take, but it also reduces how much damage you output. Which directly affects knockback, especially early game. And limiting your mobility is never a great idea early game. In fact, going into shield right away makes you extremely easy to gimp off the edge of the stage. I would hate to sound harsh, but if you're a competent Shulk player, you won't go into shield at the start of a match. Sorry for my closed minded opinion, but I don't see any benefits to using Shield immediately. Mobility is far too important in a game like Smash.

Second, I also have a difficult time securing KOs with Shulk. Been in about 7-9 Sudden Deaths in For Glory, have yet to lose one though, since I'm a very very careful player. In my opinion, the best ways for Shulk to land a KO is by playing very defensively. When in Jump or Vanilla, abuse SH Nair at max range to avoid being shield grabbed. Be a patient player, and wait for the perfect opportunity to throw out a vision or punish with FSmash/DSmash.

I find that most of my KOs come from prediction and making educated guessed/reads. For example, if I notice my opponent keeps rolling towards me, or dash attacking me from a distance. I can make a guess and FSmash as they roll or dash in. This can lead to KOs at pretty early percents.

Kind of ironic that we need to predict and make reads to do well with Shulk. Just because his own ability to predict the future is so important.

 

[Berserker.]

Hmm. After reading the last few pages. I have some input.

Personally, I feel going straight into Shield in the beginning of a match is a very poor tactic. Yes, it does reduce the damage you take, but it also reduces how much damage you output. Which directly affects knockback, especially early game. And limiting your mobility is never a great idea early game. In fact, going into shield right away makes you extremely easy to gimp off the edge of the stage. I would hate to sound harsh, but if you're a competent Shulk player, you won't go into shield at the start of a match. Sorry for my closed minded opinion, but I don't see any benefits to using Shield immediately. Mobility is far too important in a game like Smash.

Second, I also have a difficult time securing KOs with Shulk. Been in about 7-9 Sudden Deaths in For Glory, have yet to lose one though, since I'm a very very careful player. In my opinion, the best ways for Shulk to land a KO is by playing very defensively. When in Jump or Vanilla, abuse SH Nair at max range to avoid being shield grabbed. Be a patient player, and wait for the perfect opportunity to throw out a vision or punish with FSmash/DSmash.

I find that most of my KOs come from prediction and making educated guessed/reads. For example, if I notice my opponent keeps rolling towards me, or dash attacking me from a distance. I can make a guess and FSmash as they roll or dash in. This can lead to KOs at pretty early percents.

Kind of ironic that we need to predict and make reads to do well with Shulk. Just because his own ability to predict the future is so important.

Most of my KOs came from jump or speed with edgeguarding off stage/gimping. KO'ing with Shulk is difficult

Initiating shield.... Well, it really depends on your playstyle. Some people gain positive results from it, so I don't see a reason to argue against it

 

[Starfall11]

Yeah, Shulk's Bair is pretty good for KOs. My personal favorite is when you bounce them off the stage and it leads to a KO.

I understand that some people may have success with Shield. And if it works for someone, then they might as well keep doing it I suppose. But I think it could be due to the psychological conditioning involving Shulk's arts. Like turning on Shield encourages more defensive play. I don't see a practical application for it based on the data for the art. But I understand where you're coming from.

KO'ing with Shulk is definitely a bit difficult though. Reminds me of melee Roy, where all of his KO options and smashes are slow and high risk/high reward. The more I play, the more I find myself avoiding MArt Smash. It just seems so risky. My favorite use of it is to turn it on when I'm at 150% and go for a vision counter after racking up a little damage with Buster. It KOs almost anyone with Rage + Smash at that point. Honestly, that's more for adding insult to injury for easy opponents in for glory. Love sealing matches like that and winning with 2 stock though!

 

[Berserker.]

I just noticed something

When I get really pissed, I just switch to buster and **** 'em up. When I'm sane, I just stick to speed or jump. I don't think I've touched smash ever. If I wanted to add salt or troll, I use shield

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I shield offensively lol.
"Ah I'm at 120%....shield....k back In to the fight".
Anyone ever play a Moba? Shield is like when you are well fed as a bruiser. " 5v1? No problem".

Shield is so potent you don't have to play defensively with it. You generally wont die. The only worry of shield is air maneuverability.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh and that reminds me, dash attack sucks

Uair is a sneaky kill move. Safe one with jump. It goes through the ledge and no one even knows about it. Thank god for long range

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Smash dash can kill jigs from 107% near ledge I don't use it much either. However that reach is something else.

 

[Berserker.]

Smash dash can kill jigs from 107% near ledge I don't use it much either. However that reach is something else.

I overshoot it too much. Argh

I just stick to SH N-air for approaching

Edit: Call me crazy but Dorf is harder than DDD. DDD isn't even that hard but that's because I played as him for a few matches so I kinda got a gist of his weaknesses. Dorf is... his customs are beast. DDD's customs are alright

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ganon's Wizard Drop kick is great.

Forward Vision OP though.

 

[Masonomace]

Hmm. After reading the last few pages. I have some input.

Personally, I feel going straight into Shield in the beginning of a match is a very poor tactic. Yes, it does reduce the damage you take, but it also reduces how much damage you output. Which directly affects knockback, especially early game. And limiting your mobility is never a great idea early game. In fact, going into shield right away makes you extremely easy to gimp off the edge of the stage. I would hate to sound harsh, but if you're a competent Shulk player, you won't go into shield at the start of a match. Sorry for my closed minded opinion, but I don't see any benefits to using Shield immediately. Mobility is far too important in a game like Smash.

Second, I also have a difficult time securing KOs with Shulk. Been in about 7-9 Sudden Deaths in For Glory, have yet to lose one though, since I'm a very very careful player. In my opinion, the best ways for Shulk to land a KO is by playing very defensively. When in Jump or Vanilla, abuse SH Nair at max range to avoid being shield grabbed. Be a patient player, and wait for the perfect opportunity to throw out a vision or punish with FSmash/DSmash.

I find that most of my KOs come from prediction and making educated guessed/reads. For example, if I notice my opponent keeps rolling towards me, or dash attacking me from a distance. I can make a guess and FSmash as they roll or dash in. This can lead to KOs at pretty early percents.

Kind of ironic that we need to predict and make reads to do well with Shulk. Just because his own ability to predict the future is so important.

I dig the input. Shield at the very start of the match is a poor decision, unless that Shulk player is aware of something others are not. Shield can throw off the opponent's BnB setups from the heavier weight, reduced % damage & reduced KB. At very moments such as that could give you an opportunity to either trade damage or punish it despite the short jump height, & slow speed in the air & ground. Though Shield in terms of punishing by trading with reduced damage taken & damage dealt, can depend when being more safe than Buster. Once the opponent knows full well of Shield's altered KB, some setups may happen to work greatly against Shield like Sheik Ftilts & Mario Utilts despite the damage reduction Shield has. So bottom line from me is It's safe that we only approach to trade damage, because Shield Shulk can definitely take damage & live from most launching attacks.
"This is the Monado's Power!"

I mostly get edge-guard KOs like berserker said, Jump / Speed / Smash, even Buster because of weak KB used off-stage to gimp with a weak Bair's tipper can do it. Sometimes I input Dthrow augmented with Smash launching them almost in the corner setup up perfectly for me to switch to Jump asap & hunt them off-screen if they don't get KO'd. About play defensively, don't fish too hard for KOs, like when people put on Smash, they end up dying & then once they come off the revival platform they put on Smash again; this is something I don't do often.

I shield offensively lol.
"Ah I'm at 120%....shield....k back In to the fight".
Anyone ever play a Moba? Shield is like when you are well fed as a bruiser. " 5v1? No problem".

Shield is so potent you don't have to play defensively with it. You generally wont die. The only worry of shield is air maneuverability.

I like the Moba reference. DoTA all over again. And for Dash attack it's got fantastic range for such a slow-stopping dash at the end. The range is indeed what makes up for it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

@ ChronoPenguin I'm morely shocked by the Utilt damage needed to KO Jiggly. 146 seems underwhelming as I initially thought Utilt wasn't that bad of a anti-air KO option ):

Hmm. . .that's weird because her dash attack isn't multiple hits or anything like that so that's odd. Does the situation change when Arts are involved affecting the priority of the moves making contact?

I dont think Dorf likes our back air. Outranges everything the mans got. Only options are really to charge at us with Murder or Wizard Kick. That and if I recall his hitbox's don't ever pass through F-air/N-air range.

DDD on the other hand does have some range on his attacks for real oh and his recovery is a pain. Think you have to angle F-smash or whatever because I'd space away from it on stage and whiff my F-smash when his side hitbox's fudge it out.

I think DDD is tougher to face as shulk then Ganon.

 

[Starfall11]

This might go better in the matchup thread, but I'm having an incredibly hard time with Sheik. Anyone have suggestions as to what MArt is most useful against her? I find her even more difficult than RosaLuma at this point.

I find it very difficult to shield grab Sheik and ZSS since they seem to bounce off the shield with their pressure, and dodge all of my Nairs. Makes it very difficult.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Dont know if I can offer you much. I've 4 gloried some Sheiks but it's always been a victory which leads me to question the Sheiks I encounter.

I really just use Vanilla, Speed and Shield. I don't use Jump on stage, in fact I really-really dislike Jump on stage.
Approach from the air just to cope with needles. F-tilt/vision their approach. Vision doesn't work well against her U-air.
Sheiks seem to have trouble with killing outside of a U-air up top, and the F-smash is fairly manageable. If you hit Shield art you're basically fine to 150% unless you really eat something.

 

[Virum]

I was playing in shofu's online tournament today. Managed to secure top 4 playing mainly as Shulk. Infact I'd played Shulk against everyone up until I got to chimpact's Diddy Kong. I go Shulk first round and he completely destroys me. Diddy's are super rare online so my match-up experience was limited and overall I just felt that I had couldn't control momentum of the match at all regardless of which Monado Art I'd opt for. I had to go Little Mac after the sound beating I received and it ended up being 2-1 to him after I felt I choked on the final game but no matter.

I then played some friendlies against him afterwards and despite the fact that I felt I was steadily adapting to the match-up it was still an absolute struggle. One of the main factors is definitely his Side B. That move is insane. A long lasting, moving command grab that covers a lot of horizontal range and you can just cancel into a kick whenever. It punishes rolling back, it punishes shielding and rolling toward doesn't help the situation either. You're only real option is to attempt to challenge it if you can react fast enough to it. This coupled with his extremely solid set of normals that are fast, strong and have surprisingly good reach make the match-up feel like a really struggle.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Did you play Brawl at all? Diddy is basically Brawl Diddy, it's frustrating af

 

[Virum]

I didn't play Brawl competitively unfortunately (only casually though for a solid 2 years) and he's a very different beast in PM so I very much felt like I was going in blind. At least his bananas have been toned down significantly.

 

[Masonomace]

I dont think Dorf likes our back air. Outranges everything the mans got. Only options are really to charge at us with Murder or Wizard Kick. That and if I recall his hitbox's don't ever pass through F-air/N-air range.

DDD on the other hand does have some range on his attacks for real oh and his recovery is a pain. Think you have to angle F-smash or whatever because I'd space away from it on stage and whiff my F-smash when his side hitbox's fudge it out.

I think DDD is tougher to face as shulk then Ganon.

Bair has to be our greatest horizontal-distance attack. That or it's Back Slash, & between those two moves I'll rather use Bair, the tipper hit-box is quite nice If we don't use Bair as a landing option & it's SH height Ganon miiiiight duck under it when using his Dash attack but I'm not sure about that at all.

I'm not worried about Ganon really so I concur, & I am more worried about DDD. My friend & I spar with each other for Brawl & Project M so I can tell when DDD intimidates me enough to step up my A game.
(Wasn't this message for berserker?)

This might go better in the matchup thread, but I'm having an incredibly hard time with Sheik. Anyone have suggestions as to what MArt is most useful against her? I find her even more difficult than RosaLuma at this point.

I find it very difficult to shield grab Sheik and ZSS since they seem to bounce off the shield with their pressure, and dodge all of my Nairs. Makes it very difficult.

Well, as far from Trela's video versing Denti's Sheik, the usage of Smash early avoids being strung by Ftilts, so that helps a lot considering Smash mode doesn't increase the damage you take either, so that's a big win-win. After early game % is over with, switching the Art to w.e you feel like.

I was playing in shofu's online tournament today. Managed to secure top 4 playing mainly as Shulk. Infact I'd played Shulk against everyone up until I got to chimpact's Diddy Kong. I go Shulk first round and he completely destroys me. Diddy's are super rare online so my match-up experience was limited and overall I just felt that I had couldn't control momentum of the match at all regardless of which Monado Art I'd opt for. I had to go Little Mac after the sound beating I received and it ended up being 2-1 to him after I felt I choked on the final game but no matter.

I then played some friendlies against him afterwards and despite the fact that I felt I was steadily adapting to the match-up it was still an absolute struggle. One of the main factors is definitely his Side B. That move is insane. A long lasting, moving command grab that covers a lot of horizontal range and you can just cancel into a kick whenever. It punishes rolling back, it punishes shielding and rolling toward doesn't help the situation either. You're only real option is to attempt to challenge it if you can react fast enough to it. This coupled with his extremely solid set of normals that are fast, strong and have surprisingly good reach make the match-up feel like a really struggle.

Congrats to the max. Thanks for Playing~
As for your experience with the Diddy. . .I can't say I know enough to help you out, but Sm4sh Diddy feels closer to Brawl Diddy than Project M Diddy. Diddy by videos I've seen he has great Air-game & not-as-good ground-game due to banana nerf. To go any further helping I would need to watch those matches you had with Chimpact's Diddy.

For the Side B, it felt unchanged from Brawl's Side B, so the better alternatives are to Spot-dodge his oncoming air grab / kick & punish his landing behind you accordingly with your preference of choice like dash+grab, dash attack, take your pick. Normally Vision would be a suggested option but in this case for Diddy Side B that's a fat NO. A command grab will be the more likely option Diddy will do because a leaping mid-air grab is nuts, & it connecting to you off-stage is worse able to gimp you. Challenging it, I'd go with Utilt because it comes out relatively quick & it covers a lot of frontward area during the start-up of the move.

 

[Berserker.]

This might go better in the matchup thread, but I'm having an incredibly hard time with Sheik. Anyone have suggestions as to what MArt is most useful against her? I find her even more difficult than RosaLuma at this point.

I find it very difficult to shield grab Sheik and ZSS since they seem to bounce off the shield with their pressure, and dodge all of my Nairs. Makes it very difficult.

Don't throw out n-air randomly in the match up. Make sure it even hits their shield.

Actually, what I do is just let them come at me. It's way better to play defensively against any rushdown than rushing them down

And Diddy sucks. Using jump is stupid against him

 

[DavemanCozy]

So I've been trying Shulk recently, and I really like him.

His monado arts are amazing. Here's what I've been doing with them:
I use Speed or Jump to chase and gain momentum -> Buster to continue my combo game even if the opponent is at high percent -> Smash for KOing -> Shield to rack damage before losing my stock (if I'm at high percent and it's not my last stock). I usually switch the order of the first three around, depending on the character I'm facing.

Speed is pretty good to use first when fighting fast characters like Little Mac, Fox, or zoners like Rosalina or Duck Hunt. The added mobility really helps. In fact, it can be used first against many characters, due to how good your mobility suddenly becomes. Overall, I think Speed is one of the better ones:

1. What I really like with speed is Dash -> Pivot -> Side-B as a very sneaky hard hit.
2. Dash -> Pivot grab is also really good, you end up sliding across the stage while holding/pummeling your opponent, setting up for an off-stage back throw.
3. His short-hop approach is also really good. N-air is just really good with it.

I like to use Jump when fighting Kirby, Meta Knight, or floaties in general. It also helps with escaping from ground characters, although you won't be dealing much damage to them without throwing some N-airs there.

1. You can follow every character from an Up-throw with an aerial attack with the Jump monado activated
2. The best part about the Jump is how greatly it improves recovery too.

Buster is really good in general. The reduced knockback + added damage just makes it amazing.

1. One thing that works really well with Shulk in Buster is Up-throw -> Up-tilt -> F-air or Up-air (the latter is harder to land).
   
2. Repeated, short-hop N-airs also seem to chain very well in Buster mode.
3. When chasing off-stage, F-air is also really good to gently push your opponent away, giving you enough time to switch to Smash while your opponent is off-stage.

In the end, I end up switching to Smash to get that KO. Problem is that Shulk's attacks, while they have good range, are very slow.

1. He has amazing coverage with all his air attacks while in Smash monado. They have slow startup, but his range makes up for this somewhat.
2. D-smash seems to be really good to get a KO, but you require a very hard read to so. Since it hits multiple times, it's capable of punishing rolls behind you. I don't know if it's good for punishing shields though, in my playthroughs it didn't seem to shield poke anyone at all.
3. Back Slash (side-B) is also very strong when in Smash monado.

And I just use Shield conservatively. It's good for Doubles to make Shulk a stock tank, and it helps you survive and pile on more damage before losing your stock. I really like the Out of Shield Options I gain from the stronger shield, low damage is a big +.

However, I don't really like the speed hindrance I receive. I feel like even with decreased knockback and damage, Shulk moves very slowly and he becomes very easily camped until it's over. Does anyone have any suggestions to make Shield more effective?

I'll try to post some videos later this week. Along with Fox and Bowser, Shulk is looking like a solid main for me.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think I get the most milage out of Shield when I have the momentnum in my favor, and use Shield to retain that momentum while my opponent respawns from losing a stock. I also use it to give some characters that have trouble KOing more problems.

Also when using Shield, rely more on rolls and grabs. The Monado Art is designed to be defensive, as such you should play by those rules. This means letting the opponent come to you and retaliating with the appropriate action.

 

[Pepto]

Oh and that reminds me, dash attack sucks

I use it a lot in Shield. Movement speed decreases but attack speed doesn't. Dash attack is still an attack, so you cover ground just as quickly with dash as you would with any other art. It's not exactly offensive, but it increases Shield mobility quite nicely.​

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Have you guys been using roll-canceled grabs? Shulk's seems to be pretty lame compared to others, but the extra range never hurts. Just want to know if you have a good feel for using it.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I just can't do it...I will wait for wiiu to try it.

 

[stingers]

It's not very useful for Shulk imo

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Yeah, I'm getting the same "it sucks" vibe too. Very very niche uses, if any.

 

[Masonomace]

@ FlareHabanero I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about Shield. The effect is even better when it's not FG's 2 stock rules & you have 3 stocks on very high % currently 2 stocking the opponent.

About Back Slash though, I feel we could discuss more about the move. I've watched so much Back Slash in videos including my own testing for it when I could, that Back Slash seems to have a self-rewarding factor on occasion. I talked about this in the Shulk's Q&A thread on the 1st page & didn't think it was necessary to mention about it, but now that I've seen it done with the regular Back Slash, my interest grew. Here's NinjaLink's video on Shulk's Custom Specials that occurs at 5:06 - 5:08, take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUy2BEtszlQ
The spoiler & GIF below is about that 5:06 - 5:08 moment:

Spoiler: My Analysis about Back Slash Charge's "Mario Cape" effect

I actually found a way to explain it thoroughly. What happened exactly was due to Shulk having a hit-box right as he's swinging the Monado behind from behind. I believe the first active-frame hit-box BSC starts on is what I have circled in red in that picture below:

So if we were to hit someone with that portion of the Monado hit-box airborne, we'd land a hit & deal % damage to them. The new question is:

Why does it deal 15% to Mario if Shulk's back is turned to Mario's back? their both facing away from each other so how is this possible?

Answer: Shulk's BSC is the most particularly situational move he has so far up to date.

Explanation: Shulk's BSC appears to have Mario's cape mechanic including his default Back-turned % damage increase element. I'm gonna show you screenshots I took of it all happening bit-by-bit.
The chronological order in which it all happens is:

1. Cape mechanic effect
2. % damage dealing to Mario
3. Hit-stun
4. Knock-back
5. Fin~

Spoiler: See this if you want visual pictures & explanations

Above we see Mario's Nair connecting with Shulk's BSC animation of lunging mid-air. the BSC takes the hit with Super Armor.

Now Mario's Nair emits a visual effect likely to be the move connecting & starting the hit-stun. Anything after the Nair would most likely be the sex-kick properties staying out. Again, Shulk's Super Armor granted by BSC gives none.

Now this time frames later, Mario's hurt-box is literally inside of Shulk's hurt-box, while Shulk's Monado doesn't have a active hit-box yet. His Monado happens to also be completely behind him while still lunging with BSC. Those visual effects express the knock-back happening here, but again, BSC's Super Armor ignores everything.

This is literally what happens as quick as I could with slamming my spacebar for pausing at 0.25 speed. But here's the interesting portion! Shulk's BSC airborne at that on-hit apparently has Mario Cape properties! It's undeniable when you see Mario's entire motion & direction face the opposite still using Nair due to it's sex-kick element staying out longer. The oval yellow out-line is showing that yellow glow around Mario & the Monado, probably being the "Cape proc", not sure what the yellow flare visual effect is for (Arrow hinting bro), but the high-lighted light red is the Monado finally active & out. So at that moment, BSC airborne capes you.

Spamming Spacebar, I get capture this moment, where the move is now doing % damage with the jagged appearing 19%, 15% being dealt to Mario's current 4%. As odd as it may look, it's natural for Mario to be facing left after being dealt % damage, as proving the Monado's hit-box starts overhead & is shown with the light-red high-lighting to be the general area of where the BSC airborne hits. It even further proves that around the starting portion the Monado is the Blade portion more-less, which is hitting Mario's back first, which is why it deals 15% in mid-air. Answer stops here, the rest is for fun.

Still in hit-stun it looks like since Shulk is moving forward while Mario isn't going anywhere, hence hit-stun. This is where BSC starts to lunge farther horizontal distance.

Spammed that spacebar so quick I got this. The cutting slash crescent visual effect foretells perhaps that is the general launching direction Mario would go. Regardless it looks cool.

Here I'm just showing the general area of the BSC's hit-box with the red high-lighting. The red that I didn't high-light is also a hit-box I'm assuming.

Jeez Mario, why don't you just stay in hit-stun forever. Nothing really happening too different, except Shulk is slowly moving while Mario isn't due to being in hit-stun. The area Mario's hit from is the trailing slashing red visual effect given off from the Monado swung during the BSC animation, apparently. Nothing else to really show because it would get too deep into other details of other topics. And I'ev done enough for a one question getting answered. Sorry but thank you for reading.

What happens right after the last picture. The outside red high-lighted line seems to be the very tipped hit-box of the BSC, the white arrow possibly being his 2nd best tipped hit-box & anything past that is the blunt blade portion of the move. Idk at this point.

For show. The greencircle near the ground is the very tipped hit that I'mg uessing it is. Look closely & you'll see a green triangle showing basically what the 2nd tipper hit-box could be, & the the rest being the blunt blade portion of the attack. It's peculation as Idk the hit-bubbles of Shulk's attacks let alone this one move in every frame-by-frame action.

The image below is something I made from something extra I did for the Q&A thread.

So, what do you guys think?
If you think nothing of it like I used to, other than "that's probably a Custom Special feature exclusive", then watch @MooseSmuggler 's video in the link:
http://youtu.be/B1EfzAGDjA4?t=56s

http://youtu.be/B1EfzAGDjA4?t=3m13s

If we figure out exactly how this "Mario Cape" effect works in Back Slash, we could utilize this to properly use Back Slash against front-facing characters head-on & get great reward from it without needing to wait for them to turn their back on us. Seriously, 24% Back Slash with Buster on?!?!. . .YES PLEASE

 

[sakuraZaKi]

Is it possible that it could be opponent dependent? That the opponent presses something that triggers the direction switch?

 

[Masonomace]

Is it possible that it could be opponent dependent? That the opponent presses something that triggers the direction switch?

That was one possibility I had thought of, but I don't believe that's the case. In NinjaLink's video for BSC it just super armor's through Mario's Nair which lingers so there's very little possibility the opponent's move factors into Back Slash's "Cape" effect. Perhaps the first video link of Moose's match showing the ROB doing a Neutral-B laser, he could of reversed the attack on his own making the possibility plausible, but the frame-by-frame studying I analyzed showed the same exact visuals the other Back Slashes had, being those yellow shaded colors with the character 'flipped' 180.

I'm still baffled by this, I'm going to say it may have either to do with the placement of the Back Slash involving Shulk's legs/feet, or the Monado's hilt.

Is it possible that it could be opponent dependent? That the opponent presses something that triggers the direction switch?

That was one possibility I had thought of, but I don't believe that's the case. In NinjaLink's video for BSC it just super armor's through Mario's Nair which lingers so there's very little possibility the opponent's move factors into Back Slash's "Cape" effect. Perhaps the first video link of Moose's match showing the ROB doing a Neutral-B laser, he could of reversed the attack on his own making the possibility plausible, but the frame-by-frame studying I analyzed showed the same exact visuals the other Back Slashes had, being those yellow shaded colors with the character 'flipped' 180.

I'm still baffled by this, I'm going to say it may have either to do with the placement of the Back Slash involving Shulk's legs/feet, or the Monado's hilt. . .anyways. .

DISCLAIMER: This is not actual frame data, just using frames as an example.

So here's some interesting GIFs & pictures of what I was able to capture during the Back Slashes Moose performed:
Below is a GIF of the Back Slash done @3:14
NOTE: This Back Slash is done grounded
The following GIF is 16 frames in total, running at 3 fps:

Below from the GIF above are showing the "Cape" effect frame-by-frame:

This GIF below is from @0:57
NOTE: This Back Slash is done airborne, not from the ground.
The following GIF is 16 frames in total, running at 3 fps:

Below are frame-by-frame picture occurrences from the GIF above:

 

[Berserker.]

God. What was I thinking

Advancing air slash is awesome and enduring back slash is great IF ONLY IT HAD MORE HITSUN. It's safe at higher %. Additionally, I confirm Mace's cape effect findings. Happened at one match with me against a Sheik

Oh and it's way easier to KO with AS2. Getting the 2nd hit is much easier. Recovering with it feels similar to normal AS


Had a lot of fun with EBS today

Too close minded with Shulk's customs

Edit: Also, power vision slows down time like the other visions

 

[DaDavid]

I'll need to come around here some time and try to find some matches in which to use his customs, I've really only been able to play in for glory. But for now...

I can't really contribute data or anything like that, but what do you experts think about my usual approach being Vanilla at start, Buster if I get the percentage lead early and then back to vanilla for the kill unless I'm still sitting pretty below 60-80 percent (in which case I go Smash)? I go into armor if I ever get above 120 or so, but personally I haven't found too much usage or reason to go into speed or jump because I just feel vulnerable. Maybe I'm playing too offensively?

 

[Arkana]

I've been messing around with Buster on EXTREMELY high percentages, like 180+%, and while up a stock on 4Glory mode. Being at such a high percentage means that, even in Shield, things can kill you. Knowing this, Buster can help throw on that extra percent on an opponent's last stock. Despite this, I still usually throw on Shield, because ohgodimsoscaredidontwannadie

 

[Berserker.]

More thoughts on Shulk's customs

Mighty air slash is meh overall. The range decrease really kills it

Dash vision is awesome. The dash part actually helps in positioning and sometimes, you can even get some hits off after it. It basically puts you in a better position. OH, the damage is still alright

Leaping back slash well erm..... It's only useful for well.. after u-throwing. That's pretty much it.

My current set up
Neutral B : Monado arts
Forward B : Enduring back slash
Downward B : Dash vision
Upward B : Air slash/Advancing air slash

Word of warning, dash vision leaves you helpless. Also, it has stronger horizontal KB than vision. Eyeing this one

Shulk DACUS confirmed btw. Goes 1/4 of FD


Oh and I got more input for the Rosaluma match up

Don't use buster at all. Stick with speed 100% of the match. Punish air dodge with n-air. N-air the **** out of luma and f-tilt to knock it off stage (Or strong counter). Smash f-air KO's Rosalina at around 105% off stage. Or less

Haven't tried out jump though. I feel like I might be missing something here

Wanna talk about Lucario and why Smash is important for this one. You'd wanna KO Lucario as soon as possible before he gets dumb so... here are KO% of lucario with certain moves with smash activated. All uncharged

F-smash (Center FD) 102%
U-smash 92%
D-smash (Center FD) 102%
F-tilt (Center FD) 125%
U-special (Center FD) 125%
U-special (Near the edge) 95%
B-air (Base/Near the edge) 105%

Oh and gimping doesn't work against dumb mode Lucario (For me at least). IMO if you have no choice against dumbcario, you're better of using u-special or counter as your main finishers (Oh and f-tilt I guess)

 

[Masonomace]

I'll need to come around here some time and try to find some matches in which to use his customs, I've really only been able to play in for glory. But for now...

I can't really contribute data or anything like that, but what do you experts think about my usual approach being Vanilla at start, Buster if I get the percentage lead early and then back to vanilla for the kill unless I'm still sitting pretty below 60-80 percent (in which case I go Smash)? I go into armor if I ever get above 120 or so, but personally I haven't found too much usage or reason to go into speed or jump because I just feel vulnerable. Maybe I'm playing too offensively?

You'd have to submit a video of your game-play so that I may watch it & give critique about your approaches.
"I'm from Missouri, Show-Me"

I've been messing around with Buster on EXTREMELY high percentages, like 180+%, and while up a stock on 4Glory mode. Being at such a high percentage means that, even in Shield, things can kill you. Knowing this, Buster can help throw on that extra percent on an opponent's last stock. Despite this, I still usually throw on Shield, because ohgodimsoscaredidontwannadie

You're right, the general safety of Buster vs Shield is that we're more likely to survive with Shield. We're not Lucario who scales off Aura at 190%, so using Buster at that point is even further beyond risking to be worth it when it reduces our weight value, & despite having Rage, our attacks still have heavily reduced KB. The safety level we would have to play just to deal extra damage becomes extremely high & defensive, which is unhealthy pressure put on ourselves. Shield is way more healthy especially if we have the lead.

More thoughts on Shulk's customs

Mighty air slash is meh overall. The range decrease really kills it

Dash vision is awesome. The dash part actually helps in positioning and sometimes, you can even get some hits off after it. It basically puts you in a better position. OH, the damage is still alright

Leaping back slash well erm..... It's only useful for well.. after u-throwing. That's pretty much it.

My current set up
Neutral B : Monado arts
Forward B : Enduring back slash
Downward B : Dash vision
Upward B : Air slash/Advancing air slash

Wanna talk about Lucario and why Smash is important for this one. You'd wanna KO Lucario as soon as possible before he gets dumb so... here are KO% of lucario with certain moves with smash activated. All uncharged

F-smash (Center FD) 102%
U-smash 92%
D-smash (Center FD) 102%
F-tilt (Center FD) 125%
U-special (Center FD) 125%
U-special (Near the edge) 95%
B-air (Base/Near the edge) 105%

Oh and gimping doesn't work against dumb mode Lucario (For me at least). IMO if you have no choice against dumbcario, you're better of using u-special or counter as your main finishers (Oh and f-tilt I guess)

Mighty Air Slash's range decrease? Oh you mean the lateral movement decrease overall. The vertical height is so freakin highhhh, but I wonder how effective it becomes if Mighty Air Slash is augmented with Speed mode on, maybe it's weaknesses & the few advantages become balanced & favorable for the Custom given that Speed decreases Jump Height to make the moves connect better, & increases Air Speed to counter-balance MAS's ****ty lateral movement.
For the Dash Vision, I've noticed that sometimes the dashing leap forward grows in distance depending on what moves we parry, maybe it's just me but this Vision counter seems to be the least-punishable compared to Vision or Power Vision.
Back Slash Leap is fairly good for stuffing air approaches like Peach when she floats around airborne & I give her a whack of anti-air from a distance when Utilt doesn't cut it. I used this Custom for edge-guarding purposes too when I SH or FH the move & come crashing down on the stage. It has a landing hit-box around the tipper so it's like a bonus shockwave of a hit if I super-space the move covering their ledge options, but that's about it for me. I never remembered if I tested the move has a rising hit-box able to hit airborne fighters like for the example you said about the Uthrow setup, but I'll see about that the next time I play.

My setup so far:

Neutral-B: DMArts
Side-B: Back Slash Charge (But I like saying Enduring Back Slash more)
Up-B: Advancing Air Slash
Down-B: Power Vision (I only use this grounded for the Forward input to do TONS of damage & KB)

To add-on to the Lucario discussion:

Lucario does amazingly well on Omega pillar stages with flat walls going all the way down, because Lucario can cling to them & use multiple walljumps before he even needs to grab the ledge for his first time gaining the intangibility, so he can recover from as low as he wants making our Edge-guard game very tricky even if you have Jump or Speed on. If Lucario notices our aggressive edge-guarding towards him off-stage, he could just RDT & get back before we do because of the move's ridiculously long horizontal slide, making it the strongest edge-guard break against us. This hinders us greatly because AS camping with stage control is no bueno. So we have to have some caution before we go all-in. I can vouch that Lucario's means of recovering back can vary greatly with whichever option he chooses, & I didn't even mention about when he uses his dumb ExtremeSpeed's range that scales with Aura making it much more difficult to edge-guard him than before, so the importance of KO'ing him early means very early, early like, 70% & no more than that.

Btw I dig those numbers

I don't appreciate you calling him dumbcario though, they share something in common! (ExtremeSpeed Up-B, ExtremeSpeed Monado Art)

 

[Lord of Boxes]

I prefer back slash leap to backslash since it has a ton of vertical range, and it's really quick. the only disadvantage I can think of is the decreased horisontal range, but it can help when close to a cliff. Back slash charge on the other hand absolutely sucks imho, It's too slow, it makes you leap way too far, and the super armor dosen't even redeem this piece of crap. I'd rather have a high speed move that makes me hard to hit, rather than a sluggish hard to execute move that makes me invincible.

 

[Masonomace]

I prefer back slash leap to backslash since it has a ton of vertical range, and it's really quick. the only disadvantage I can think of is the decreased horisontal range, but it can help when close to a cliff. Back slash charge on the other hand absolutely sucks imho, It's too slow, it makes you leap way too far, and the super armor dosen't even redeem this piece of crap. I'd rather have a high speed move that makes me hard to hit, rather than a sluggish hard to execute move that makes me invincible.

To add-on to your disadvantages from what I've analyzed Back Slash Leap, I found that the ending lag is worse than Back Slash, which makes your landings very punishable if the opponent is nearby to not let you go undone, plus your point of it's worsened horizontal range, so the move if used mainly for something should be airborne attacks, though it does have a crashing hit-box landing near the tip like I'm sure all of the Back Slashes have.

The utility of Back Slash Charge is far beyond that of Back Slash Leap though. You can easily recover with this move as a superior horizontal option in case you're out of jumps & your air speed + Air Slash won't save you. Using Shield & having this move is a win-win situation, but like all MArts augmenting Shulk in some way, this goes without saying. Back Slash Charge is supposed to be meant for trading favorably on the ground at close-quarters & the ridiculous long distance-slide is to "help" you not get punished after the fact, giving none about what the opponent uses due to the Super Armor. I will agree with you on that it's very slow; it's start-up is longer, & the ending lag is longer too, making it the worst of the Back Slashes in those terms.