Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

B-throw to charging back slash lmao

Custom moveset loadouts

Rush down
Upward B : Air slash/Advancing air slash

Campers
Forward B : Back slash charge
Upward B : Advancing air slash
Downward B : Dash vision

Heavy hitter
Downward B : Vision/Power vision

Turtling with Shulk
Neutral B : Monado arts/Hyper MArts
Forward B : Enduring back slash
Downward B : Power vision/ vision


Mighty air slash will probably be useful just as a recovery move and that's it. It's probably Shulk's best recovery

Advancing air slash, if used right, is superior to normal air slash. You just have to get used to the whole "going down" part with the second slash. Oh, it's stupid easy to kill confirm with. IMO, easier than normal AS

Dash vision (Normal hit) allows you to set up for more hits after. It puts you in a position such that you can keep attacking the character since dash vision knocks it back

Power vision is great but risky. Strict timing but when you master it, it's hilariously good

Enduring back slash from b-throw is amazing.....

ALSO, can someone test power vision's effectiveness against Bowser or DK? Lmao

 

[erico9001]

I took Shulk into practice at 1/4 speed and found that his BAir is angled upwards. I guess that's why I've had difficulty hitting people (especially small people) at a range with it. Also, Shulk's Up Smash Looks really cool in slow motion =]

 

[Masonomace]

B-throw to charging back slash lmao

Mighty air slash will probably be useful just as a recovery move and that's it. It's probably Shulk's best recovery

Advancing air slash, if used right, is superior to normal air slash. You just have to get used to the whole "going down" part with the second slash. Oh, it's stupid easy to kill confirm with. IMO, easier than normal AS

Dash vision (Normal hit) allows you to set up for more hits after. It puts you in a position such that you can keep attacking the character since dash vision knocks it back

Power vision is great but risky. Strict timing but when you master it, it's hilariously good

Enduring back slash from b-throw is amazing.....

ALSO, can someone test power vision's effectiveness against Bowser or DK? Lmao

Bthrow > BSC. . .

Mighty Air Slash could be more useful if MArts were augmenting it's setbacks & toning down the few advantages such as Speed for the decreased height to help connect the moves, or Smash to increase the first slashing attack's KB to follow-up better with the 2nd hit, but I don't think it's Shulk's best. MAS has no horizontal movement & it's fallspecial frames worsen our control to move left or right, making us recover lower than we would with regular AS, which is not an improvement. Ofc Jump mode involved goes without saying, but when we're not using a mobility-favoring Art, MAS forces how we recover. I'd be more incline to nominate AS or AAS to be the better recovery.

AAS just might be our go-to Up-B option if Customs are allowed later on from how balanced the recovery is, & the 2nd dash mid-air snaps the ledge. It horizontally launches opponents which is harder to VI & recover from than vertical launches.

I like DV because I feel the intangibility lasts the entire distance Shulk travels, & the whole dash being a follow-up approach feels nice

PV is my kind of counter so far, I just like savoring it for the unnecessary smashes that get wind-up to edgeguard me & I break their attempt & send them flying for instant stage control or a KO

 

[Berserker.]

Power vision is probably the best for those who have good timing or really don't use counter all that much. I use counter a lot so I don't use this that much unless I'm up against a heavy hitter for reasons

 

[Pepto]

Power vision is great but risky. Strict timing but when you master it, it's hilariously good

SOOO much salt when I use that move against people, especially heavy hitters. I'll kill Ikes and Dorfs as early as 30-40% (pre-vision), and it's beautiful. So many rage quits.

 

[Berserker.]

VS Link stuff. Of course, I was helping a Link here

Shulk main here also whose brother has been a competitive Link since... Smash 64. Note that this has custom movesets involved

Projectiles are your best friend against Shulk. Avoid using the bow though especially against speed. Shulk players are likely to use jump or speed over buster anyway in the match up. Boomerangs and bombs are great. If the Shulk's using enduring back slash, just punish it IF you don't take that much hitsun. If you're % is around... I'm not sure like... 60-80%+? Well, idk. The only retaliation against EBS if you're at a moderately high % is don't spam projectiles. By spam, I meant don't just throw it out for the **** of keeping Shulk away or putting a wall of spam (Because that's punishable and it's not gonna work). Be smart with them. I think you can try luring Shulk to use EBS then punish. Not sure how since I haven't seen a proper retaliation yet but I'm sure you guys can think of something. Just be super defensive. Always have a bomb ready if the Shulk you're fighting has dash vision ready because Shulk dashes for the attack when he counters which is effective against campers. He can be hit out of it by throwing out another projectile

DO NOT throw out f-smash or dash attack a lot. If countered, it's gonna suck for you and plus, it's not hard to telegraph so don't risk it. Stick to d-smash or FF n-air. I should also note that if you whiff d-smash (which is stupid), the 2nd hit will leave you vulnerable to back slash (I think but this worked on some characters).

The tricky part in recovering as Link is when Shulk goes on jump. If he properly spaces f-air, you'll be hit out of spin attack. If he just plainly uses b-air, that's probably gonna seal a stock. To be honest, I've only landed f-air on spin attack like 1/16 times. I usually am hit by spin attack whenever I attempt to f-air so I'd just stick to b-air which is a bit harder to land but it's pretty safe. Just prepare your anus when your sent off stage. Shulk's edgeguarding is ridiculous especially with jump. IMO, just use z-air for recovering unless you need vertical height, then use spin attack and hope Shulk doesn't use d-air on it

Edgeguarding Shulk (Not on jump) isn't that hard. Edgeguarding jump Shulk may be tricky but N-air does stuff. I'm talking about Link's n-air. It's probably fast enough to stop Shulk's n-air before it even happens. One trick as a Shulk player I use is full hop nair to air slash. If you're fast enough and close enough (Fast fall m8), you can probably counter this. I think.

Against shield Shulk, well... Just projectile spam. Won't do much but he won't do much either unless he n-airs his way through which can be punished or not depending on how well spaced it is. My brother at first was pretty iffy on this because he was under the notion that I could easily zip through with jump or speed but if you apply enough projectile pressure, it won't be as annoying as it seems. The match up's tricky but it's not hopeless at all (nor even reminiscent of hopeless)



Same goes for TL in this one except it's slightly easier for TL (Plus, he has some differences which either don't help at all or help against Shulk) but still kinda of tricky anyway.

tl;dr: Projectile spam. Sure, Shulks can SHFF n-air all day but it's pretty punishable imo (This may vary). Just don't be dum. Be smart. Boom. You win. Projectile pressure will be the key for winning here

It sounds difficult but (it kinda isn't) if you keep up projectile pressure very well, you probably wouldn't have to worry about Shulk for the most part

 

[Lord of Boxes]

I find Dash Vision Amazing for area denial. I find it as a complete upgrade. I don't think theres less over or under counter windows, But I am not sure.

 

[Berserker.]

Dash vision for the most part is ass as an aerial counter. It overshoots. You have to SH counter to make it work. Also, if you're too close with the air dash counter, you'll still overshoot it so you'll have to space your counter also.

But tbh, I just use it grounded. I learned all this against Sheik and Fox when most of my aerial counters were missing (So I just resulted to using ground counter against them instead)

Also, you can set up for a u-smash after dash counter is triggered

Power vision is probably the best aerial counter. You almost never miss with it but jesus, you can practically only use it once in a while because of the ultra precise timing. You probably have to wait for around 30 seconds or maybe 20 for the counter window to reset. Dunno

 

[DaDavid]

I found I'm too used to how normal Vision works to try switching to one of the others. It's already unreliable enough in the air so Dash Vision doesn't attract me, and I use it so frequently that Power Vision kinda seems unworthy of the trade. Anybody else find that default is perfectly serviceable or is one or the other being overall seen as objectively better?

 

[Berserker.]

I found I'm too used to how normal Vision works to try switching to one of the others. It's already unreliable enough in the air so Dash Vision doesn't attract me, and I use it so frequently that Power Vision kinda seems unworthy of the trade. Anybody else find that default is perfectly serviceable or is one or the other being overall seen as objectively better?

Actually, vision counter (default) is 60/40 reliable in mid-air or worse imo. Not sure. Maybe it's because I suck with the air counter.

Dash counter, you can do a lot of things with it. It has more utility and it can still KO and deal decent damage.

 

[Masonomace]

I never tried it out for myself, but I wonder if buffering a SH+Vision input would be better than the grounded Vision proc. Especially Dash Vision especially because that makes you dash preeeetty far airborne only one inch off the ground, so it's not like it affects the grounded hit-box, but gains more height for the slash's tipper to connect easier. If Shulk doesn't have any landing lag after the Vision dash in mid-air lands on the ground, then, **** yeah SH+Vision ftw.

Regardless, Power Vision is my kind of counter, that Forward input<3

 

[Berserker.]

Any character with short ranged basically, is nearly immune to air dash vision. It's easy to overshoot

Any character who's small and has short ranged will probably not get hit at all by dash vision

Normal vision might work but basically, just don't use any vision but power vision against these character types

Still think dash vision is the best

 

[DaDavid]

I guess maybe as a Marth main since Melee I'm too used to a counter that (more or less) hits right then and there. I might mess around with Dash Vision some more though since I'm sure it'd be much more useful against ranged attacks that regular Vision Counter.

 

[OptimistNic]

EDIT: THAT WAS NOT PEACHYHIME. She confirmed on Twitter that she has not played online in weeks and she uses Samus anyway. So I was battling a poser (name tag was Hime) who just happened to be good with Peach/Zelda/Lucina/Puff. Sorry to get you hyped.

I was battling the poser this morning in For Glory. I went Shulk and beat him basically 7 times out of 10. I even managed to 2-stock him once or twice (I felt AMAZING, even though he knew Zelda's roll cancel pivot grab I still managed to overcome it)
Shulk's fair and nair are AMAZING for spacing. He went Peach/Zelda/Lucina/Puff and when he went Peach or Zelda I would use the Jump art to follow up when they got sent high or were vulnerable from their slow fall speed.

 

[Berserker.]

I actually scored a good number of kills from surprise u-airs. Some were from ledge dropping->FH U-air. Some were just really near the upper blast zone

 

[Berserker.]

Intentional double post

Oh and some stuff on DHD

This match up has pretty much been consistently a thorn for me. I've tried using speed and jump but the projectiles seem to be too much. I then realize that if I actually learned how to deal with each projectile, I'd probably not have that much of a hard time anymore. Truth is, it's not as hard as I thought after being patient. Despite this, the match up is still slightly stingy at the levels of Rosalina and Kirby. Ugh

Personally, d-tilt or f-tilt works way better against cans (Grounded) and f-air/n-air works against cans in mid air. His clay pigeon is where you can use your n-air but you have to time it right which isn't that hard to be honest. The gun man isn't really much of an issue. Take advantage of speed or jump in this one. I honestly see this as an opening to charge in and n-air.

Enduring back slash is alright against DHD. Not as good as I hoped for. It's only worth using with shield activated because despite the armor, the damage you'll likely take while using it is massive ********. Dash counter also isn't really that helpful. Even though you counter a projectile, you can be hit out of your attack animation. Note that DHD can still hit you again anyway by pressing B with his can or clay pigeon which sucks for us. tl;dr: The customs that were suppose to help us aren't really helping.

Vision is nearly useless in the match up unless you're countering DHD's smash attacks. That's all I gotta say about it

Empty jumping also helps. Hopping forward and using n-air even with speed or jump won't get you anywhere at all. If you use it like a maniac, you're not gonna have a fun time. Just use it when there's a nearby can or clay pigeon. Gun man, just use mid-air jump then FF nair.

Once you're up close, make sure you had speed activated. This match up is pretty much one of the only ones I've used Decisive arts because I'm fine with committing to jump or speed against DHD. The buffs are important for staying on him because default Shulk's mobility is subpar and not enough to stay on DHD's face.

tl;dr: if you learn how to take things slowly, then you'd probably have a better chance of winning for once. Some people probably may have had an easy time in the MU by just n-airing. i guess i just suck then. lol



Anyone else can add or object, that'd be fine. Opinions are great

Lastly, lol don't use buster or smash ever in the MU

And guys, please read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/trumped-distances-for-every-character.374002

 

[Pepto]

Anyone else can add or object, that'd be fine. Opinions are great

Lastly, lol don't use buster or smash ever in the MU

I disagree. When the match starts I go full kamikaze, no arts, and just charge him. Dh wants to set up projectiles and trap you with explosives, but that takes time. Even just switching to an art is enough time for him to set up a can and clay pigeon, but if you run in with Vanilla Shulk, he'll only have time for one projectile setup, and the Monado can shut any of them down. Once you're in his face, space your attacks well, and don't let up. Make him panic. If you're smart about it, can rack up about 50% before knocking him far enough away to switch to an art. Buster works very well. His percentage is high enough for your moves to knock him out of range for counter attacks, but it's low enough to get combos and good damage on him. By the time Buster runs out, you should be edge guarding. Switch to Smash, his extremely predictable recovery should do the rest for you.

Once he respawns, switch to Jump/Speed and repeat. Don't play a slow, patient game against dh, that's exactly what he wants, and he's better at it.

 

[Starfall11]

For some reason, I don't find the matchup against DHD to be particularly difficult. But it's possible I haven't come up against a great player yet. I use Speed and Jump and abuse SH Nair's. Pivot grabs and pivot Ftilts work great too. DHD's air mobility is really annoying since he's nigh impossible to gimp off the stage. But he's a relatively light character, so KOing him isn't especially difficult.

I find DDD to be particularly difficult since he can play the range game with the length of his damn mallet. The gordos can be annoying off stage, but Shulk can bounce them back with his air attacks. I find Sheik to be difficult since she can dodge anything. And Robin has been giving me a hard time as of late.

People who refuse to come in with Robin will just zone all day, then shield-grab me every time I go for a Nair. He's also difficult to gimp because of his amazing recovery. I try to use Jump against zoners, and it works out fairly nicely. But for some reason I find speed to be infinitely more useful in this matchup. Something about the short hop being only inches off the ground really helps me confirm and create more ambiguous mixups. I feel like people can see the Nairs coming too much in Jump form. Even when I try to empty jump and bait Robin, good players always tend to shield grab me anyways.

I really wish Speed didn't have the damage reduction nerf. I'd rather receive more knockback/damage. Speed has a lot of combo potential that normal Shulk doesn't have though. So it can make up for the damage loss.

For example, DThrow > Dash SH Fair works in Speed at mid-percents. It's not a "true combo", but it's extremely fast and difficult to escape from because of Fair's range. Vanilla and Jump Shulk can't land the F-Tilt after d-throw because their running speed is far too slow.

You can also B-Throw/F-throw > Dash Attack > Fair. But I've been less reliable with this confirm.

 

[Scarhi]

Hey, this might be pretty useful with Shulk : http://smashboards.com/threads/air-...ccurs-prior-to-the-auto-cancel-window.373035/

tldr : We can cancel an airdodge's landing lag by using an autocancelled aerial during the last frames of the airdodge (IASA frames)
This means we have some new mixup approaches that could be useful against campy opponents who like to shieldgrab, such as SH > Airdodge > cancel landing lag with Nair > Grab

 

[Berserker.]

I disagree. When the match starts I go full kamikaze, no arts, and just charge him. Dh wants to set up projectiles and trap you with explosives, but that takes time. Even just switching to an art is enough time for him to set up a can and clay pigeon, but if you run in with Vanilla Shulk, he'll only have time for one projectile setup, and the Monado can shut any of them down. Once you're in his face, space your attacks well, and don't let up. Make him panic. If you're smart about it, can rack up about 50% before knocking him far enough away to switch to an art. Buster works very well. His percentage is high enough for your moves to knock him out of range for counter attacks, but it's low enough to get combos and good damage on him. By the time Buster runs out, you should be edge guarding. Switch to Smash, his extremely predictable recovery should do the rest for you.

Once he respawns, switch to Jump/Speed and repeat. Don't play a slow, patient game against dh, that's exactly what he wants, and he's better at it.

I dunno but I'll try this out

I find DDD to be particularly difficult since he can play the range game with the length of his damn mallet. The gordos can be annoying off stage, but Shulk can bounce them back with his air attacks. I find Sheik to be difficult since she can dodge anything. And Robin has been giving me a hard time as of late.

Dunno much about Robin. I second main him but I don't know much :\

DDD isn't difficult. At first, yeah. He was a pain in the ass but once you get around the gordos, he's fairly easy. Also, his attacks deal whopping high damage so counter is a ***** against him. Don't touch buster. Stick to jump and speed. It helps in getting around. Always maximize your range against DDD

Sheik is probably one of the funner match ups. I'm not sure how to explain it very well but take advantage of your range. There have been several videos of Sheik vs Shulk already so that's the best way to help yourself in this one

 

[Starfall11]

Thanks for the advice guys. As strange as it is, I feel like I have on and off days with Shulk. I've been terribly inconsistent with him in For Glory. But that could be due to Matchups and lag, so who knows. One day I'll win roughly 30% of my matches, a week later, I'm back up to 85% win rate. But I have been watching replays, and learning from my mistakes.

As a request, I think we should have a stickied thread particularly for "High Level" Shulk play. There aren't many videos out there as of yet. But I have found Trela's Shulk to be pretty spectacular. LF Syuton is a very solid Japanese player too. He only has a few matches on Youtube. But I studied them closely for around 30 minutes, went in to For Glory and started decimating people.

Both of them show how Jump Monado should be used. Speed is also pretty powerful. The more I play on a high level with Shulk, the more I feel these are the most important arts. Mobility is super powerful in a game like Smash. If we could start a thread with only high level replays, I think it would immensely help the community.

It would also be an excellent display of Shulk's potential in tournaments. (A lot of people still dismiss him as low-tier because of his awkward normals and the lag on his attacks.)

 

[Masonomace]

He was a pain in the *** but once you get around the gordos, he's fairly easy.

This. I witnessed a gordo deal 27% to a fellow Shulk & cringed from it doing two hits to equal out that insane percentage. We have to be accustomed to working our way around the gordos so much.

Thanks for the advice guys. As strange as it is, I feel like I have on and off days with Shulk. I've been terribly inconsistent with him in For Glory. But that could be due to Matchups and lag, so who knows. One day I'll win roughly 30% of my matches, a week later, I'm back up to 85% win rate. But I have been watching replays, and learning from my mistakes.

As a request, I think we should have a stickied thread particularly for "High Level" Shulk play. There aren't many videos out there as of yet. But I have found Trela's Shulk to be pretty spectacular. LF Syuton is a very solid Japanese player too. He only has a few matches on Youtube. But I studied them closely for around 30 minutes, went in to For Glory and started decimating people.

Both of them show how Jump Monado should be used. Speed is also pretty powerful. The more I play on a high level with Shulk, the more I feel these are the most important arts. Mobility is super powerful in a game like Smash. If we could start a thread with only high level replays, I think it would immensely help the community.

It would also be an excellent display of Shulk's potential in tournaments. (A lot of people still dismiss him as low-tier because of his awkward normals and the lag on his attacks.)

I think it's mostly lag. I played some FG & when I felt like the lag during the matches were so bad, it seemed like 0.30 second buton delay, it's a huge effect on one's game-play.

From the high-level Shulk's I've noticed for not watching much I say Trela, Hylian, & SilentDo0m are pretty high up there, including a few others I didn't mention that I have seen from the Shulk Video Thread. But yeah, I second this request. So again, I like the idea that would help develop Shulk's meta even further, but then again, the WiiU isn't far off yet. . .we should expect higher level of play in November 2014 & there from now on. I see why players are turned off by Shulk's game-play, but at the same time Shulk isn't for beginners, even intermediate / decent players struggle to be consistent with him at times.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh right if it makes you guys feel better, Trela got 1st place in GCF1. Go figure (He used Robin more than Shulk)

He's mostly seen as mid. You can blame the bad representation in For Glory mode but mostly, it's just an impression which can change. It's understandable

Oh and, a lot of Shulks suck so there's that.


Oh and you guys were right. N-air works against Gordos so well

 

[Opana]

May be more useful in the U version, but crouching seems to ignore the Monado art cycle when pressing B. Maybe b-sticking can buffer other moves, like a back slash? I believe I can buffer a counter.

 

[Masonomace]

I can get it with using B-sticking for Shulk. B-sticked Back Slash or Vision sounds interesting to say the least.

Also I witnessed this moment in a video I was critiquing from the Shulk Video Thread. @ AlvisCPU 's smexy Reversed MArt Speed momentum showing the goods at 1:20 - 1:21 . Check out that B-reversed running cancel into more running, no more skidding for Shulk

 

[Berserker.]

I won but I was so dumb against Wario. As in, I felt like, "What the hell am I suppose to do in this match up?"

Then out of no where and out of dumb luck, I countered his massive fart and sealed the game. I was at a losing position btw so this was pure luck

 

[AlvisCPU]

I can get it with using B-sticking for Shulk. B-sticked Back Slash or Vision sounds interesting to say the least.

Also I witnessed this moment in a video I was critiquing from the Shulk Video Thread. @ AlvisCPU 's smexy Reversed MArt Speed momentum showing the goods at 1:20 - 1:21 . Check out that B-reversed running cancel into more running, no more skidding for Shulk

Oh wow, did I do something right?

Having a look back on the video, that's actually hilarious I think I'll learn to play some mad mindgames with something like that.
(Yet to look through the critique with the video open alongside, but thanks in advance!)

 

[Berserker.]

I wouldn't worry about Shulk's tier list position for now. If you wanna prove Shulk is legit, you should prove yourself also. Go to a tournament and do ****

Oh and someone do an extensive testing for this: http://smashboards.com/threads/pseudo-ken-combo-shulk-style.374229


Brb. Gonna try out doing (jump art)u-smash to u-air or air slash combo at high % (100%+). I got a hunch

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I've been playing a lot of Shulk again recently. He was the character I thought I'd main going into the game based on his playstyle from what I saw. I was immensely dissapointed with him. But I'm still putting my time into him. Prepare for a wall of Shulk criticism. Come at me bros.

Shulk is a horrible character that REQUIRES a stance to become a better character. But his stances aren't as great as one would hope at times. Blue is his most useful all-around one that works in tons of situations (especially at low percents), but the decreased damage dealt hurts him quite a bit and makes this stance fall short of always being the best one.

Green may actually be his best at mid to high percents because he lands a hit and then can follow up at absurd distances and angles, and this is the ONLY DECENT STANCE that does not decrease his damage output. Green is also incredible for stalling. Need blue to get in versus a campy player? Stall by jumping around with Green until blue is back up. I think Green may actually be his best stance.

Yellow may be best used if you take a stock and are at a high percent when they come back. Lets you rack up some free damage. If you're really evil you stall with Green when Yellow is down. Yellow is greatly hindered because it also decreases his damage.

Purple is garbage. Like I said, Shulk is actually a really bad character at baseline. Purple does not affect his attributes in any meaningful way so you are left with a vanilla Shulk that does more damage with less hitstun and TAKES more damage as well. I can't find a situation for purple to be useful yet but I haven't spent time experimenting in training mode yet.

Red is really situational. The best time I've found to use if is if you are at a low percent and the opponent is at a high percent (like if you come back after they took your first stock, or if you are destroying them one-sidedly). The worst time to use it is when you are both at a high percent because (as far as I've found) your increase in knockback taken is greater than the increase in knockback given. Down throw in red is a decent kill option.

I wish Shulk was better. I struggle in matches with Shulk that I can roflstomp with a handful of other characters. The gamecube controller will help him a lot but I don't think it will help him enough. We'll see though.

 

[Berserker.]

I've been playing a lot of Shulk again recently. He was the character I thought I'd main going into the game based on his playstyle from what I saw. I was immensely dissapointed with him. But I'm still putting my time into him. Prepare for a wall of Shulk criticism. Come at me bros.

Shulk is a horrible character that REQUIRES a stance to become a better character. But his stances aren't as great as one would hope at times. Blue is his most useful all-around one that works in tons of situations (especially at low percents), but the decreased damage dealt hurts him quite a bit and makes this stance fall short of always being the best one.

Green may actually be his best at mid to high percents because he lands a hit and then can follow up at absurd distances and angles, and this is the ONLY DECENT STANCE that does not decrease his damage output. Green is also incredible for stalling. Need blue to get in versus a campy player? Stall by jumping around with Green until blue is back up. I think Green may actually be his best stance.

Yellow may be best used if you take a stock and are at a high percent when they come back. Lets you rack up some free damage. If you're really evil you stall with Green when Yellow is down. Yellow is greatly hindered because it also decreases his damage.

Purple is garbage. Like I said, Shulk is actually a really bad character at baseline. Purple does not affect his attributes in any meaningful way so you are left with a vanilla Shulk that does more damage with less hitstun and TAKES more damage as well. I can't find a situation for purple to be useful yet but I haven't spent time experimenting in training mode yet.

Red is really situational. The best time I've found to use if is if you are at a low percent and the opponent is at a high percent (like if you come back after they took your first stock, or if you are destroying them one-sidedly). The worst time to use it is when you are both at a high percent because (as far as I've found) your increase in knockback taken is greater than the increase in knockback given. Down throw in red is a decent kill option.

I wish Shulk was better. I struggle in matches with Shulk that I can roflstomp with a handful of other characters. The gamecube controller will help him a lot but I don't think it will help him enough. We'll see though.

The only time purple's really useful is when you're fighting specifically, a character with short range and is in general, slow. Actually, you can go through a lot of matches without using it. It's too risky and like what most people have said, it doesn't really add much options. Yellow's great though. Even if used at 0%. Against characters that generally go at your face, it's fine. Against characters that use projectiles, it's not useful at all. Good example of it being useful at 0% is specifically against Little Mac. I should add that green is really good for edgeguarding

But overall, your qualms regarding Shulk are understandable. I was also very disappointed with how buster turned out. I'm still under the notion that it's not working as intended.

Anyway, have you checked out the video thread yet? We don't wanna force you to change your opinion so it's cool. At least you gave Shulk a shot

 

[SamuraiPanda]

The only time purple's really useful is when you're fighting specifically, a character with short range and is in general, slow. Actually, you can go through a lot of matches without using it. It's too risky and like what most people have said, it doesn't really add much options. Yellow's great though. Even if used at 0%. Against characters that generally go at your face, it's fine. Against characters that use projectiles, it's not useful at all. Good example of it being useful at 0% is specifically against Little Mac. I should add that green is really good for edgeguarding

But overall, your qualms regarding Shulk are understandable. I was also very disappointed with how buster turned out. I'm still under the notion that it's not working as intended.

Anyway, have you checked out the video thread yet? We don't wanna force you to change your opinion so it's cool. At least you gave Shulk a shot

Is there something in the video thread I should see? I watched some Trela matches. I heard Ally plays Shulk but I haven't seen a video of that yet.

I'm still going to play Shulk for a little while. It all comes down to tournaments though. If Shulk isn't a useful CP or main and can't hold up in tournament play then that is when I'll officially drop him.

 

[Berserker.]

Is there something in the video thread I should see? I watched some Trela matches. I heard Ally plays Shulk but I haven't seen a video of that yet.

I'm still going to play Shulk for a little while. It all comes down to tournaments though. If Shulk isn't a useful CP or main and can't hold up in tournament play then that is when I'll officially drop him.

Okay then. Now you don't need to look at the thread.

Wait a minute, he plays Shulk?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Supposedly.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Hey, this might be pretty useful with Shulk : http://smashboards.com/threads/air-...ccurs-prior-to-the-auto-cancel-window.373035/

tldr : We can cancel an airdodge's landing lag by using an autocancelled aerial during the last frames of the airdodge (IASA frames)
This means we have some new mixup approaches that could be useful against campy opponents who like to shieldgrab, such as SH > Airdodge > cancel landing lag with Nair > Grab

A quick trip to the lab and it appears this is only applicable in speed and shield modes, as vanilla short hopping goes high enough to finish an air dodge. Considering speed Shulk's air speed this might have some use though.

 

[DraginHikari]

I've been playing a lot of Shulk again recently. He was the character I thought I'd main going into the game based on his playstyle from what I saw. I was immensely dissapointed with him. But I'm still putting my time into him. Prepare for a wall of Shulk criticism. Come at me bros.

To be fair I don't think your going to encounter a lot of coming at you in a negative aspect. Most people here are not under a delusion about Shulk definite weaknesses and the trouble of overcoming those issues. I am definitely not tournament level and I cannot add anything particularly useful. I have some seen some people do some impressive things. It's good that your at least willing to see how it plays out.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

To be fair I don't think your going to encounter a lot of coming at you in a negative aspect. Most people here are not under a delusion about Shulk definite weaknesses and the trouble of overcoming those issues. I am definitely not tournament level and I cannot add anything particularly useful. I have some seen some people do some impressive things. It's good that your at least willing to see how it plays out.

That... is really too bad. I was hoping for some vehement defense of Shulk so I could learn new things :/

 

[DraginHikari]

That... is really too bad. I was hoping for some vehement defense of Shulk so I could learn new things :/

Heh, you will probably get some useful information those here that have actually done those things it's just not likely to be vindictive was more of what I was getting at. Generally more of a... being useful without getting offended type of deal.

 

[Pepto]

That... is really too bad. I was hoping for some vehement defense of Shulk so I could learn new things :/

Hi, vehement defense here.

Shulk is a very good character in certain situations. Given his range, relatively quick moves, and ridiculous spacing ability, he does very well against mid sized brawlers and the other swordsmen, as well as certain campers (dh, Mega Man, Bowser Jr). Even in Vanilla form, he can punish very well and create a wall of nairs and fairs that's hard to get past. His problems aren't inherent to the character like they were for Brawl low tiers, but in certain matchups.

Because Shulk's moves have such great range, they sacrifice start up speed, so characters like Greninja, Sonic, and the spacies can get in extremely fast and make it hard to get a move in. Characters like Pikachu, Kirby, and other light weights are hard because they're so small that Shulk's attacks can miss and so light that his two part attacks (fsmash, usmash, uair, bair, AS) don't land since the first part knocks them too far for the second to connect. Lastly, Ganon is surprisingly difficult, since he's so heavy that instead of the first hit of two part attacks knocking him too far for the second part, he barely moves and gets a free punish (Ganon punches HURT). Plus he's so strong that he completely ignores Shield Art and knocks you around like it's not even there.

That being said, Shulk still has plenty of options, namely his grab game. Up throw to u tilt does wonders. 1) It connects and you get to juggle for some decent damage, or 2) they jump out of it, but now you're at an advantage because you're on the ground while they're falling. His grab game isn't all that great, but even that limited up throw is still a viable stall tactic and a good way to rack up damage until your aerials and tilts can deliver decent knockback.

For the Arts:

You're on the right track with Jump (green). It allows you to do some ridiculous follow ups (u throw to uair can kill surprisingly early), and is great for edge guarding (fast fall nairs are extremely useful for gimping subpar recoveries) and still making it back.

Speed (blue) is great for hit and run. It also decreases jump height, which lets you do some ridiculously low aerials (auto canceled nair is your friend). But mostly it's a change up art. Your running speed is faster, but your attacks aren't, so being fast doesn't benefit Shulk nearly as much as it helps other fast characters. Use it sparingly.

Shield (yellow) is basically a troll art. Use it when you don't want to die, it's that simple. However, Shulk's recovery with Shield is laughable, so stay in the center of the stage, and revert back to your grab game. Also, certain characters (like Ganon) are so strong that you'll still go flying, usually so far that you can't recover.

Buster (purple) is where so many people on this thread go so wrong that I'm not sure we're playing the same character. Buster is extremely useful is multiple situations. The grab game I mentioned earlier can last longer and dish out much more damage with Buster activated. Lightweight characters who are extremely hard to follow up against become easier to handle with Buster. Visions can deal so much damage with Buster that it ignores the reduced knockback and kills early anyway. Shulk is so momentum based that you can rack up 50%-70% with a few well executed smashes and punishes if you have Buster activated. And if your percentage isn't too high, the deceased knockback resistance can help you escape combos as well.

Smash (red) is so cheap. I used to think it wasn't worth it, but I gave it a shot and it's ridiculous. DJ uair kills early, usmash kills early. Hard punishes can kill as early as 60%.

Shulk is a difficult character to utilize and he's got some pretty rough matchups, but he's by no means a bad character. I'd suggest you work on his Vanilla mode and just understand the character without any of the Art gimmicks. Once you have a really good understanding, throw in the Arts. Learn what works against certain characters and in different situations.

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk is a horrible character

I'm going to be in the *edited*majority*edited* & definitely disagree with you. I feel like this is subjective, & saying that he's horrible comes off as a ridiculous lie when he at least has several options against the rest of the cast. A horrible character by my definition is the said character having absolutely nothing to answer for the opponent's options; MArts can help answer them, given that the MArt chosen succeeds. Although MArts are of course recommended, Shulk can be a decent character without any MArts to augment his game-play. Your expression of disapproval is understanding to an extent, but I feel your criticism of every MArt & their shortcomings are half justified.

Purple is garbage. Like I said, Shulk is actually a really bad character at baseline. Purple does not affect his attributes in any meaningful way so you are left with a vanilla Shulk that does more damage with less hitstun and TAKES more damage as well. I can't find a situation for purple to be useful yet but I haven't spent time experimenting in training mode yet.

Sure, Buster isn't the greatest Art, & there are players that make it out to be good, but calling it garbage? Unnecessary. If you want some decent situations then try using this Art at mid % like 50 ~ 70% for an example, & when you have momentum in your favor. You don't need stage control or need to be in the lead to make this Art fully useful to you, just don't keep it on for all of the 16 seconds you can use it for unles you were doing good for that long. If you get off a 2 - 3 hit follow-up with Buster on, take it off to be safe about it.

I wish Shulk was better. I struggle in matches with Shulk that I can roflstomp with a handful of other characters. The gamecube controller will help him a lot but I don't think it will help him enough. We'll see though.

I can agree with wishing he was better, but I like that he's got a high learning curve. Personally I think Shulk will be a better Doubles character than Singles, but that can just be me.

 

[Berserker.]

That... is really too bad. I was hoping for some vehement defense of Shulk so I could learn new things :/

If you want to be convinced.....

Like what Pepto said, start getting used to normal Shulk. If you can't click well with vanilla Shulk, you're probably not gonna do well with either of his arts. F-smash is underrated for edgeguarding. Grabbing is very important with Shulk, regardless of which art you're using. DACUS U-smash---- Oh wait, no GC controller >_____>

Vanilla Shulk's decent. That's all I gotta say. Damage output is on par (or at least comparable) with Link's if compared. His attack speed is pretty slow in general. His overall mobility is subpar and his weight is above average. That's all I can say. He's not horrible but at worst, he's probably below average as a fighter

Also, use his grabs a lot. It's one of his most important moves especially when using speed, buster and shield. Speed because boost pivot grabbing is incredibly useful with it. Also, SHFF N-air is very effective here. The nerf'd jump height (Worse than shield's nerf) actually benefits Shulk. Additionally, grabbing during speed is also great as a follow up because his jab combo does not always fully connect. Oh and one more thing, speed also increases air mobility which well whatever. It makes using SHFF N-air even better. Take advantage of your speed, mix up your movements. You have a lot of options with speed (blue) art. Ignore the damage decrease and just keep on hitting

Shield is amazing for keeping your stock and for pissing off your opponent. Surprisingly very effective against rush downs because they'll probably go at you anyway so all you need to do is laugh at damage, space with n-air or grab. You can run it for 100% of the match if you want. Sounds stupid but give it a shot . Also, you should KO using shield if you're at around 100%+ in case smash isn't safe. Despite the damage reduction, the knockback is still good enough anyway

Buster well... It was my favorite art but I found it too risky. However, I've used it from time to time. This is basically your wild card of the sorts. If things aren't looking too hot for you, pull this out and turn the tides to your favor by racking up damage. The key to using buster is by using it defensively. Not offensively. Using it offensively will likely cause more mistakes and more mistakes lead to taking more damage. FH F-air, N-air, All your tilts and grabs are very important and potent in buster. Maximizing your range and using counter (when the player is at around 55%+) is very important here. If you're getting too much damage, switch out immediately.

Smash is basically buster without the defense decrease. The damage decrease sucks ass but you don't need the damage. You can KO at around 60-80%. That's insane. Problem is, you're also lighter with this art activated so don't use it when you're at 100%+

Basically, buster and shield are basically momentum shifters. Jump, speed (and shield) are well... I'd say your basic stances that you'd use. The key to feeling it with Shulk is being patient, playing defensively, utilizing the arts at the right time. Also, be creative with your arts. I've seen people try using smash at early %'s to avoid combos. I've seen people use shield 100% of the time to play safe. I've seen people stick to gimping for KO'ing with the speed/jump combo. I've seen people commit and play an ultra-risky playstyle of buster/smash.

I almost forgot about vision countering. It's an amazing counter BUT don't get predictable with it. Aerial counter is a bit iffy. Feels like the hit/miss ratio is at 60/40 or 65/35. A bit inconsistent

Monado arts cancelling (potentially or is) really big for Shulk. Cancel lag of any move by just timing your activation. I haven't seen anyone (I meant, no video) utilize it but this could be really big for Shulk

That's all I can input about him. Also, other notable players that use Shulk are Trela, Hylian and SilentDo0m if you're interested. Not sure about Hylian, I think he mains Lucario but he's still notable with Shulk

More fun facts about Shulk
- Shield strength during shield art is increased by a lot
- Buster cause shield pushback and it does good amount of damage on shield. It does not have high shield damage but the sheer damage itself does the work
- Air slash is great for KO'ing. No one knows this. For now. Don't get predictable with it
- As said, he can DACUS for 1/4 of FD

F-tilt KO's. D-smash has surprisingly high KO power even without smash. D-tilt and D-smash can be used for edgeguarding. U-tilt is a GREAT anti-air. U-smash is effin disjointed as hell but I'm eyeing this. Space your n-airs. Don't use f-smash a lot.

Request though but can anyone check if speed reduces landing lag?



Edit: Worth the double post but there were A LOT of times where in I've dealt 17% damage with f-tilt and 10% damage with n-air (Buster activated)

Hi

That's not a minority. Most of us just think he's decent




I think Vanilla Shulk might actually be better than we think. I don't know. I'll try going on a vanilla run and see how I fare. Actually, maybe everyone should try this at the cost of some losses. It's probably worth it