Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Masonomace]

its going to be a very high quality video. im good at editing, and im confident in my skills to produce results.
hopefully it gets featured or something, it'd be a crime if it didn't.

I'll make sure I link it when i'm done

If you want some talk about the video, or if you want me to share knowledge of everything I know, I'd be glad to help you with this. PMs or messaging me on skype / discord is also a thing.

 

[-NV]

If you want some talk about the video, or if you want me to share knowledge of everything I know, I'd be glad to help you with this. PMs or messaging me on skype / discord is also a thing.

for sure, i'll send you a pm soon

 

[OllieWG♪]

its going to be a very high quality video. im good at editing, and im confident in my skills to produce results.
hopefully it gets featured or something, it'd be a crime if it didn't.

I'll make sure I link it when i'm done

I don't check in here too often, so it would be optimal if you just PM me when you're finished.
if that's alright with you anywho.

 

[Masonomace]

I've updated the OP quite a bit. But I do pose a question if you guys feel there's something missing such as frame data of some kind for Shulk. I make a bunch of Notepad files & save tidbits or lots of information & data that I just happen to lab & discover.

Also, I have a good amount of news & metagame advancement to discuss but I'll do that another time. I'd like you guys to check out my frame analysis & solution to the problem if you haven't already.

 

[Theosmeo]

Hey, so I recently started playing shulk after realizing he's the by far the best(most fun) newcomer in smash 4 but after playing a month of Anthers and For Glory(not the most high quality of matches I'll admit but good experience with the character regardless) until I started winning as consistently as I won with Ganon, my current main(which is about 75-85% success, these are random people in FG and Anthers friendlies though, so...) I played my friend who I always play one on ones with for hours. He's a better player than me and also a master of random so he's alway really interesting and worthwhile to play, but every move I threw got perfect shielded. No matter how nicely you space your Fairs or Nairs they can get perfect shielded and you can get punished. I was trying to tomahawk here and there but Shulk isn't the best at close range so usually I'd get punushed for it. Because most of Shulk's moves come out after frame 10(nothing surprising to me as a ganon main) when the 20xx of sm4sh comes it's likely everyone will power shield everything(which is why I've always hated power shielding except for projectiles) so how do you expirienced Shulk mains deal with it?

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

A perfectly MALLC'd back air is pretty much unpublishable if it's at least somewhat spaced. You'll to mix up your MALLC approaches, though, because eventually your opponent will catch on if you do short hop RAR bair every time. Speaking of RAR, I think one of Shulk's best tomahawks is to run then RAR backwards jump (as if you are going to do a RAR bair) and then land, run up, and grab.
If perfect shielding wasn't a thing Buster would immediately become even more amazing then it already is.

 

[Theosmeo]

A perfectly MALLC'd back air is pretty much unpublishable if it's at least somewhat spaced. You'll to mix up your MALLC approaches, though, because eventually your opponent will catch on if you do short hop RAR bair every time. Speaking of RAR, I think one of Shulk's best tomahawks is to run then RAR backwards jump (as if you are going to do a RAR bair) and then land, run up, and grab.
If perfect shielding wasn't a thing Buster would immediately become even more amazing then it already is.

I guess I should be practicing MALLC more often then, lol. Even then they can just watch for bairs startup and if they don't see it they'll just catch the landing, otherwise they'll perfect shield and leave.

 

[OllieWG♪]

I guess I should be practicing MALLC more often then, lol. Even then they can just watch for bairs startup and if they don't see it they'll just catch the landing, otherwise they'll perfect shield and leave.

MALLC is definitely one of the more useful things Shulk has over everyone else, it can be bait.

 

[Theosmeo]

Oh ok, thanks for your help, I've been doing better against my friend

 

[-NV]

I've updated the OP quite a bit. But I do pose a question if you guys feel there's something missing such as frame data of some kind for Shulk. I make a bunch of Notepad files & save tidbits or lots of information & data that I just happen to lab & discover.

Also, I have a good amount of news & metagame advancement to discuss but I'll do that another time. I'd like you guys to check out my frame analysis & solution to the problem if you haven't already.

Thanks for the cleanup and update
I'm working on boring stuff right now like audio and fonts, once I begin my datamine i'll make sure to ask your opinion before continuing.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So I picked up 7th at Anvil Smash yesterday and a playstyle adjustment recommended by a friend made me realize...we play a SERIOUSLY lame character. With our "superior" range becoming less relevant with every patch, we can't always rely on being able to just wall people out anymore. So what does that leave us with compared to other swordsmen? Mobility. My friend was telling me to stop trying so hard to predict things and instead stay mobile and abuse nair a smidge more. So what I ended up doing a lot was switching between Jump and Speed and just moving around a bunch, throwing out aerials occasionally to cover options and mixing in empty jump grabs. I'd use shield sometimes for holding onto leads and ended up only using buster and smash when I had folks knocked offstage. But overall it kinda felt like I was playing like Sonic except with a huge, slow disjoint instead of small quick ones in how much I just tried to make people catch me when I had the lead.

MALLC combos and MABD mixups are nice and all, but we're definitely a zoning character first and foremost, and with other swordsmen getting range buffs we gotta be sure to make use of the one thing we still have over them. And then there's Cloud but that guy's just a goofy character in general he's not our fault.

 

[ArtAtk]

So what does that leave us with compared to other swordsmen? Mobility.

You are 100% right about Shulk's Mobility being one of his distinguishing factors among swordsmen, and arguably 0% right that we all play a lame character .

• Marth & Lucina have quick/multiple aerials per jump
• Cloud& Ike have long-lasting, low-landing-lag/autocancelled aerials
• Roy& Corrin have a good mid-range combo game (autocancelled?)
• Link, Toon Link, Robin, Corrin, Pit, & Dark Pit all have projectiles for spacing to make you forced to approach their disjoints
• Mii Sword Fighter has...never mind...

So...that beg's the question: what exactly does Shulk have to work with that uniquely distinguishes him?

Your friend is right in a way; Shulk can't react as quickly as other members of the cast, like Sonic for example, so relying on quick predictions and subsequent reactions may not be the most optimal or fruitful playstyle from him. On the other hand, like you mentioned, Shulk has massive, albeit slow, disjoints, which puts a significant distance between Shulk's Hurtbox and the end of Shulk's Hitbox (the tip of the Monado) which opponents must be wary of and navigate in order to land a hit on a well-spaced Shulk.

That said, whenever Shulk experiences one of his aerial's landing lag and is positioned a distance away from the opponent that is less than that of the disjoint of said aerial, he's very likely to get punished. This is why I find it incredibly useful to pretend that there is a certain "no aerial" distance/bubble/zone around opponents which I must always stay clear of when landing with an aerial. This is especially the case when they are super fast like Sonic or C.Falcon and can dash grab the heck out of you in order to punish, unless obviously they themselves do something readily punishable just before you send out your aerial, like a laggy smash attack, grab, or even an airdodge-into-ground (if, say, Speed Art is currently activated) --by all means go in on them then!).​

Quintessentially, Shulk is perhaps a 60%-or-less-of-the-time spacing-heavy character, with a potentially 40%-or-more-of-the-time close-quarters burst-option provided by the momentum-based MArts (Speed/Jump), MALLC, MADC, MABD or--most under-utilized of them all--Turnaround-B/B-reverse/Wavebounce'd Monado Art Activations, which I will shorten to MA rBr for brevity!

Side Note: "DPS" with Shulk
Remember how Shulk has one of the higher Damage Per Second (DPS) values among his party members in Xenoblade Chronicles? Using MALLC is almost like equipping a Double Attack Gem , where the more often you perform these aforementioned techniques, the more Shulk transitions from a spacing-based "Low-DPS" fighter like Sharla ("Hey, not so fast!") into a close-quarters burst-option "High-DPS" fighter like Dunban ("Timing is everything!") or even 7 ("Try and catch me.")!

But overall it kinda felt like I was playing like Sonic except with a huge, slow disjoint instead of small quick ones in how much I just tried to make people catch me when I had the lead..

Know what Sonic can't do? Turnaround-B/B-reverse/Wavebounce/ his neutral special immediately into an aerial/airdodge/another special (eg. Airslash or Vision, albeit frame 10 and 7 options respectively).

Add to that 14 frames or a 1/4 seconds of intangibility during the very beginning of the Monado Art Activation (the beginning of each Art's funky-looking "pose"), which can be cancelled into other moves/options immediately (Correction: First Actionable Frame or FAF is 6, so after 5 frames) versus only after 25 frames for Ryu's Focus Attack Dash Cancel which is invulnerable but still absorbs damage. Not to mention, using MA rBr Shulk's momentum and facing direction can have four different possibilities all for your opponent to consider (1. Turnaround-B, 2. B-reverse, 3. Wavebounce, or 4. none-of-the above) as opposed to only momentum changes in the case of Ryu's FADC, though this can be, albeit telegraphed, rBr influenced right when FADC is first used of course, but not during the dash cancel itself.

Additionally, the hitbox on Shulk's Fair is active on Frame 14, which, mindful of the FAF of 6, can make it hard to punish Shulk right after a Short or Full-Hop Monado Art Activation at the apex of said hop if one is patient and willing to forego inputs during part of or all of said intangibility (almost like a pseudo 50-50 ?). I'd say Shulk's bait-and-punish game is remarkably more nuanced than Sonic's (given Speed/Jump Art), or even Ryu's (given MA activation intangibilty and momentum/facing options).​

Moreover, Shulk is unable to shift his aerial momentum or fast fall during the MA activation pose (where typically one might air-dodge immediately after activation in order to immediately negate this momentum restriction, say in the event you switch to jump/speed in order to vertically/horizontally recover on stage respectively), but since it is possible to fast-fall right before MA activation / pose, this may potentially allow Shulk to land very safely assuming he is able to contact the ground within/before, or close to the 14 frames of intangibility elapsing.​

Let's do some math here; Compared to the 14 frames of intangibility upon MA Activation:

• Shulk's Fast-fall speed is (2.4), & his regular fall speed (1.5). Fast-fall speed / reg.fall speed = 2.5/1.4 = 1.6

• Shulk's full-hop has 60 frames regular-speed of hang-time, meaning 30 frames required to fall from the apex of the full-hop: Ceiling( 30 frames / 1.6 ) = 19 frames

• Shulk's short-hop has 39 frames regular-speed of hang-time, meaning ~ 20 frames required to fall from the apex of the short-hop: Ceiling( 20 frames / 1.6 ) = 13 frames

• Of course we're ignoring the 4 frames of hard-landing lag (versus the regular 2 frames of soft-landing lag)

• The First Actionable Frame(FAF) of Monado Art Activation is 6, so these first 5 frames will more-or-less overlap with the 4 frames of hard-landing-lag anyways

One followup question might be: Does this intangibility end prematurely when Shulk encounters landing lag? If not, this hypothetically could prove to be a safer, not to mention intangible, approach/landing option as compared to a perhaps poorly spaced MALLC'd aerial, depending on the situation/circumstances of course!

Btw, I'm very curious to know how many Shulk's can say they have been regularly incorporating full or short hop MAA(TAB|BR|WB) into their play-style? I kinda wanna make a poll about this but don't know how...halp plz?!?

Side Note: Camping with Shulk in order to increase burst-options
I've recently come to think that, not unlike Cloud's Limit-break Charge, Shulk has a round-about method of camping too: the fact that his Monado Arts recharge over time. So, the more you use up your Monado Arts, the more an opponent will want to approach you given that you have less advanced options available with more MArts cooling off, and the more you will be able to abuse your range/disjoints. (See, Shulk is kinda like Sharla after all, albeit with cool-downs for a sword and not a rifle.). So the more you use different MA Activation related techniques, it follows that more of your Arts will be in cool-down at any given time, so that opponents may more brazenly want to approach you in order to not allow you to freely recharge/cool-down un-bothered or unscathed.

Again, some more math; The quickest Shulk may possibly use up all five of his Arts is:

• 5 * 46 frames duration from MArt selection to activation to occur, and let's say we are MALLC-ing our landings

• 4 * 5 frames of waiting (FAF is 6 for MA activation)

• 4 * x number frames it takes to do a quick move allowing for buffered deactivation of current art
  • Raise & lower Shield (intangible ?, FAF ?)
  • Spotdodge (intangible 3-18, FAF 28)
  • Roll (intangible 4-17, FAF 31)
  • Jab1 (active 5-6, FAF 26)

Side-Side Note: Fastest Possible MArt Cycling with Shulk via "Bidou"
I've found that setting the C-stick for GC controller or R-stick for Gamepad/Pro controller to [Special] allows you to essentially waggle the C/R-stick (surprisingly, without the need to hold a trigger set to [Special] since you've technically already started a special but haven't finished using said special) in order to both immediately Buffer Deactivate and then continue to cycle through your Monado Arts at seemingly light speed, more realistically possibly one adjacent cycle per every 2-5 frames; Realizing this, I'm currently experimenting with the Bidou technique on the WiiU Pro Controller with very promising results.

In fact, let me just go ahead and embed the Bidou Technique right now:

Using both thumbs on the two control sticks at all times and setting/relegating Shield, Attack, Special & Jump to ZL, L, ZR, & R respectively for use with the index/middle fingers on both hands--very weird, I know; it definitely took a while for me to make the transition--allows for 6 different inputs at any given time--I've completely eschewed the face-buttons!
​

Quite honestly, the Bidou is perfectly suited for Shulk, given the "unique nature" of his delayed neutral special. Here's why:
​

At the expense of C-sticked aerials [which can quite reasonably be made up for with MA rBr] and constantly holding a trigger set to [Special]**(not actually the case, see Footnote), you gain the following==> easy, facilitated, repeatable/consistent, perfectly executed & fastest possible: foxtrotting, PP's, RAR's, fastest ledge clings/trumps, MA(TAB|BR|WB)A, landing into running grab, dash grab/attack, PP sliding F-Smash, "PP crouch dash" from this reddit post, and so much more--all of which can be further augmented by Shulk's Speed and Jump Arts! Now, combine all of this with Shulk's already impressive range, and paraphrasing from the few people I've played recently on Anther's Ladder, my Shulk has become downright "scary" to play against.

Best of all, whereas most neutral B's will cause some sort form of lag, either in the form of a projectile or a charging animation, Shulk is unhindered due to properties unique to his Monado Arts!

**Footnote: There are a multitude of situations where Shulk can simply press and hold [Special] the instant before performing a Bidou-based tech versus having to always hold down [Special] via a trigger!

Essentially: (Check out the snippet of Masonomace's OP, "spoilered" below in order to save space, for all of these situations):​

1. When Shulk doesn't currently have an art activated, all of the red highlighted bullet points within the "Spoilered" section below will allow Shulk to avoid going into MA selection while pressing [Special].
2. When already activated, pressing [Special] a single time won't cancel an art; that requires either 3 presses or 1 second held. The visible gray Kanji & sound however could tip off observant opponents.
3. The caveat: you need to make sure you aren't completely stationary, or motionless in the air, while holding down [Special] for more than 1 second, so release and re-hold often!

Spoiler: "The Quirks of Monado Art Cycling/Activating, As Borrowed From Masonmace's Initial Post"

Info & tips about the Monado arts
∙Once you've pressed the special button once displaying Monado Jump, Shulk cannot use his other specials while an art is displayed behind / overhead Shulk. You must wait until the colored kanji character activates with a particular sound being heard including the large flash that occurs, which can also be seen by Shulk's character portrait at the bottom of the screen.

∙It's wise activating an advantageous art while you're off-stage. Pay attention to the activation indicators so that you prevent yourself from ruining Shulk's recovery. Inputting Air Slash too soon before the art's activation results in cycling to the next art in the order, & without a reserved double jump, you're in deep trouble. However, it's safe to art shuffle if you know you'll reach the ledge by drifting with a reserved doublejump.

∙Shulk can cycle to or deactivate an art during or while

• Standing, Walking, Dashing, Running, Dash dancing, Drifting, Falling, Fastfalling,
• Z-Dropping, Z-Catching
• Short hopping, Full hopping, Double jumping, Footstool jumping
• Hitstun, Landing Lag, RCO Lag, Multi-hitting attacks, Flinching, Tumble falling, Tumbling after walking off carrying a heavy item, Reeling

∙Shulk cannot cycle to or deactivate an art during or while

• Jump squat animation, Footstool jump squat animation
• Skidding, Turning around, Crouching, Reverse Aerial Rushing, Swimming, Platform dropping, Shield platform dropping, Pivot Landing
• Staying on the revival platform
• Hitlag, Clash, Buried, Frozen, Sleeping
• Special falling, Edge slipping tumble falling, Footstool's tumble falling, Shield break falling
• Shielding, Perfect shielding, Shield drop, Rolling, Spot dodge, Air dodge, Neutral tech, Rolling tech, Wall tech, Ledge tech, Wall jump tech, Ceiling tech
• Standing grab, Dash grab, Pivot grab, All directional throws, Pummel
• Any kind of Item Throw
• Jabbing, Dash Attack, Tilts, Smashes, Aerials, other Specials, Taunting
• Floor Get-Up, Floor Rolling, Floor Attack, Tripping, Trip Attack
• Ledge Hanging, Ledge Climbing, Ledge Attacking, Ledge Rolling, Ledge Jumping

∙Although Shulk cannot cycle or deactivate an art during the red inputs you see in the bulletins above, every single one of those red inputs are all potential buffer windows to apply Monado Art Buffer Deactivation (MABD). This includes examples like Speed art's pivot grab as means of buffering the deactivation to retain the ground speed after the endlag from the grab finishes. Or something like Jump art's Up throw & buffering the deactivation followed by using an aerial or airdodge to retain the jump force, yet negating the fall speed attribute thus resulting with longer air time & jump height.

∙Shulk performs a pose for each Monado art, & each pose performed has a intangibility frame window starting from frame 1 - 14. If you interrupt the pose Shulk performs with any input, you reduce the amount of intangibility received from the art's activation.

∙Monado arts have a duration around 16 seconds without deactivation, & after an art deactivates it goes on around a 10 second cooldown before the art refreshes & can be activated again. When you cycle to an art on cooldown, it becomes gray.

∙You can deactivate a Monado art by either pressing the specials button 3 consecutive times, or by holding the button down. Holding the specials button down deactivates the art in exactly 1 second, but you cannot press any other button or move the joystick. Basically, there's limited utility to holding instead of consecutive pressing.

Note: these are the frames which would be normally be overlapping with the next MA activation duration of 46 frames anyway to setup the next MALLC.

• 4 * 1-5 frames to select MArt, realistically more if it's not Jump or Speed
• 4 * 5 frames of jumpsquat
• 4 * 39 frames of Short Hop into next MALLC
  • (I've mentioned before that frame perfect sh-non-ff'd Jump Art MALLC is possible but underutilized or unheard of, since 1 + 5 + 39 = 46 frames)
• = Roughly anywhere from five to seven seconds depending on how fast your can cycle to the next available/charged Monado Art during selection.

Which only means four to six seconds of camping MAXIMUM before you can repeat the whole process again, presumably always using the same order of MArts.

Getting back to Shulk and Camping (similar to Cloud): Thus, it may then be extremely advantageous and therefore strategic to intentionally and safely camp while waiting for all your MArts to recharge (as it takes only a maximum of 11 10 seconds to recharge them all), in a similar fashion to how Cloud2King camps on the platform on Smashville, in order to increase Shulk's DPS value and burst-options, as made possible by having more MArts and therefore MArt Activation techniques at your disposal.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

The intangibility is something I've really been trying to work into my gameplan more often, and I ESPECIALLY need to work on using it after a MALLC. Why throw up shield/spotdodge right away when any immediate attempts to punish you will be negated anyways? Not to completely forgo defense of course, but guys; unless I'm off on my math, the activation intangibility lasts only two frames less than a spotdodge's and in fact has the same duration of the intangibility of his rolls. Except the intangibility starts on frame one, vs. frame 3 for spotdodge and 4 for his rolls. And we can act out of it instantly. It's not bad.

 

[ArtAtk]

The intangibility is something I've really been trying to work into my gameplan more often, and I ESPECIALLY need to work on using it after a MALLC. Why throw up shield/spotdodge right away when any immediate attempts to punish you will be negated anyways? Not to completely forgo defense of course, but guys; unless I'm off on my math, the activation intangibility lasts only two frames less than a spotdodge's and in fact has the same duration of the intangibility of his rolls. Except the intangibility starts on frame one, vs. frame 3 for spotdodge and 4 for his rolls. And we can act out of it instantly. It's not bad.

You make a really good point regarding utilizing the MA activation's intangibility more right after MALLC, comparing the frame data of the tried-and-true defensive options.

Too often I find myself not thinking or reacting and simply--and usually ineffectively--buffering a f-tilt, roll, or spot dodge when some less unexplored, perhaps better, mixups/options (in order of opponent's increasing distance) might be: wait (1-14 frames) + jab, wait + dash grab; wait + f-tilt, wait + d-tilt, wait + sh (reverse-)nair, wait + air-slash, etc.

Moreover, if an opponent tries to shield grab you prematurely, you're then in great position to quickly punish them for it.

For example, here is Shulk's grab frame data:

Grabs ~~~~~~~~~ Hitbox Active~~FAF
Standing Grab~~~~7-8~~~~~~~~~~30
Dash Grab~~~~~~9-10~~~~~~~~~~37
Pivot Grab~~~~~~10-11~~~~~~~~~35

For most characters it appears whiffing a grab has at least a 30 frames or a 1/2 second lag penalty, and all grabs are only active for a single frame, typically several frames earlier than 14 frames. I could see a frame-perfect (1 frame MA select jump art), short hop (5 frame jumpsquat + 39 frames hangtime) MALLC'd air dodge (how long do the intangibility frames last for airdodge?) into the 14 frame intangibility as a bait-and-punish method to be a viable option for Shulk against more Shield-Grab-happy opponents.

 

[FOcast]

Btw, I'm very curious to know how many Shulk's can say they have been regularly incorporating full or short hop MAA(TAB|BR|WB) into their play-style? I kinda wanna make a poll about this but don't know how...halp plz?!?

I've started training my execution of this technique, but have not incorporated it yet. I'm focusing first on the edgeguarding application: Cycle to Jump -> short or full hop from ledge -> turnaround wavebounce -> fastfall forward air, hitting below the stage. This should be extremely effective against no-hitbox recoveries that benefit from going low such as Rosalina and the Pits.

Using both thumbs on the two control sticks at all times and setting/relegating Shield, Attack, Special & Jump to ZL, L, ZR, & R respectively for use with the index/middle fingers on both hands--very weird, I know; it definitely took a while for me to make the transition--allows for 6 different inputs at any given time--I've completely eschewed the face-buttons!

​

This is... a really interesting idea. I might try that out...​

 

[lmntolp]

Side-Side Note: Fastest Possible MArt Cycling with Shulk via "Bidou"

I'm discovering new things with Bidou, and today I found some really janky stuff with Monado Arts + B-sticking. I'll copy what I posted in the general bidou tech thread:

I also tested out Monado Arts out of curiosity.. and it's incredibly janky.

• To cycle through arts, I found Special -> R-stick up -> R-stick down -> .. etc. to be great for getting the right art quickly. Also, you can memorize which art ends in up or down, so a misinput is very unlikely. If you start R-stick in a direction other than up, you pivot/dash/crouch/fast fall just like in Bidou, and you can continue the cycle if you time it right. Also, some weird stuff might happen if you're using L-stick and R-stick at the same time, often stopping the cycle.
• It doesn't look like you can cancel the art with the B-stick at all, but if you keep pressing Special until it starts cycling, you can use B-stick to continue the cycle.
• You can use Bidou just fine with no art, but if you're holding Special while in an art, you'll cancel the art. The only way to stay in Bidou with an art (speed is nice with Bidou) is to always input something, anything, which will prevent the art from cancelling. I think holding up on L-stick works if you want to do nothing.
• While you're cycling arts, you are in Bidou mode. This is easiest to see if you try to cycle to a grayed out art. The B-stick can be used to do perfect pivots and other Bidou things even without holding down Special until the cycle ends
• Something funny I was able to do was B -> R-stick forward -> R-stick forward repeatedly, which makes you dash trot forward, cycling one art each time. If you use L-stick forward to cancel the dash trot, you can then reverse and start dash trotting in the other direction.

I have no idea what can be done with these options because I don't play Shulk at all. There are definitely some unique interactions here, but not really in a good way. Maybe I'll put this up on the Shulk boards to see if they find anything useful in this.

Basically, like mentioned in this Shulk thread, you can cycle Monado Arts very quickly, but it seems like it's hard to maintain Bidou while in an Art. I'd like to see if these findings are known, or if you Shulk players could make sense or make use out of them. There may be even more to discover here.

 

[erico9001]

EDIT: It has turned out some of these things are not crap

Hi, it's me! I'm here to do an update on Shulk stuff. This is pretty much what I think is crap and what I think is not crap.

First, here are three things that are crap.

1)
So. One thing that has been discussed recently is switching monado arts and then ledge trumping somebody, detaching from the edge, and then Fairing them. They like it because they think it would be fast.

Problem. Monado Art activation animation has 5 frames you can't act during. These means your fair won't be coming out at frame 14 but rather 19. Bair starts at 18. There are some other factors to include into this like how you're not going to hit the opponent with the first frame of fair but probably ~3 frames in, and there will probably be some frames after you detach from the edge and before your art actually activates. All in all, this is less useful than just detaching into the Bair.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)
Monado Art Ledge Snap (MALS) has been a thing lately. Found by player GetShulked, who insists it's useful. The optimists in the chat want to believe that, but I don't. They even want to call it an AT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzJmYfq5W8g
The problem with it is you need to be in no art as you approach the edge, and start the activation of an art right before you grab hold of the edge. This plummets the usefulness of the technique far down. After grabbing hold of the edge, you need to detach and jump at the right time so that you jump with the activation animation and your feet are grounded.

I do say it has more usefulness than the trump fair, but not by very much.

--------------------------------
3)
Bidou. Don't get your hopes up.

It took me a while to actually get out and try Bidou. Wasn't worth the hype.

So first of all time for some clarification. Some people complained about your art deactivating. However, this is not an issue at all. This can only happen if you're keeping your left joystick at center for some reason and doing nothing else (jumping in place is the exception). To be honest, Shulk has the best neutral B for setting up Bidou. We don't have to worry about sending a fireball, and so don't need to be in an animation in order to activate it. However, we do need to redo the setup every time we want to change arts, so that's a tiny bit annoying, but you get used to it.

The problem with Bidou+Shulk is we don't get much at all from it. What we gain:
-Perfect pivots and movement options
-Easy instant ledge grabs (speed art still can't). Ledge trumps aren't a big part of our game anyways, so this isn't so good.

What we lose:
-Easy up tilts (perfect pivot up tilt is harder, only really possible by pressing up and holding it for a little bit before hitting attack)
-The ability to use bair while moving forward, or fair while moving backwards, or doing Uair at the same time as a fast fall input.
-Sliding F-Smashes (which were only possible with Smash Stick anyways, while we most use tilt sticks)
-Time

The movement options are nice, well in speed art at least. However, given the downsides, not worth. Bidou is not going to take Shulk places.

-------------------------------------------

Things you should actually look forward to

I am still busy working on Shulk, though school has been taking time away from that. I have at least two major projects I'm working on right now.

> New MALLC Guide
(solo project)
Turns out almost all of us have been MALLC'ing the wrong way. We should be doing on-shield MALLC's, not on-hit MALLC's. This new guide gives several, several new methods for MALLC'ing and covers every legal stage's platforms.

> New Shulk website
(not a solo project)
Will be a good resource for Shulks from a wide range of topics. Houses organized MU notes/summaries (including tabs for combo percents, stage selection preferences, and more!), guides, and many things I'm not going to tell you about right now. This website is why I'm holding off on making the new MU thread on Smashboards. I want to get the website to beta form before we start that.

>Guide on the Monado Purge 50-50 combo
(I'm not doing this one, notyourparadigm is)
This is jump art buffered deactivation from uthrow into uair OR wait for an air dodge and punish that.

The route to improving Shulk is no longer original discoveries. We have found almost everything we can in that regard, and we have a bunch of useful tools because of it. Now, we need to shift focus towards refining what we have. It's time to engineer.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Isn't ledge trump B-reverse Air Slash true anyways? Even if it isn't it's still faster. Our character is complicated but that doesn't mean we should overcomplicate things.

 

[erico9001]

I'm not sure about true. I was reading something recently that it depends on how soon you grab the edge after they do, sooner the better. However, that was not tested much. However, yeah, reverse air slash is our best option yet

 

[FOcast]

1)
Problem. Monado Art activation animation has 5 frames you can't act during. These means your fair won't be coming out at frame 14 but rather 19. Bair starts at 18. There are some other factors to include into this like how you're not going to hit the opponent with the first frame of fair but probably ~3 frames in, and there will probably be some frames after you detach from the edge and before your art actually activates. All in all, this is less useful than just detaching into the Bair.

I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. It is possible, with good timing, to do turnaround aerials off of Monado Art Activation without the activation animation playing. Also, the other reason to use this would be that Fair's hitbox is much more favorable to this position. I'm sure many of us have tried to ledge trump Bair and found it very difficult to hit with, whereas Fair's sweep would make it ideal for catching many drift/jump patterns.

That said, I tried to grind out this very technique a while ago, and I agree with your assessment that it is crap. Reverse Air Slash fulfills the same purpose with much less effort, and doesn't require you to setup an art to cancel into.

2)
Monado Art Ledge Snap (MALS) has been a thing lately. Found by player GetShulked, who insists it's useful. The optimists in the chat want to believe that, but I don't. They even want to call it an AT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzJmYfq5W8g
The problem with it is you need to be in no art as you approach the edge, and start the activation of an art right before you grab hold of the edge. This plummets the usefulness of the technique far down. After grabbing hold of the edge, you need to detach and jump at the right time so that you jump with the activation animation and your feet are grounded.

I do say it has more usefulness than the trump fair, but not by very much.

I haven't tried this out yet, but I think it's very much worth looking into. I think you're neglecting the fact that we could also execute this technique by dropping from the ledge, cycling arts into regrab -> MALS, much like a melee player might ledge stall into invincible ledgedash (except worse in every way).

There is the risk that you opponent would catch your regrab and punish, but as long as you don't overuse this, most will not be ready for it (don't do it against characters with awesome Dtilts like Diddy, Mac, etc.). In such cases it could easily function as an excellent bait, where an opponent seeing your regrab goes for the Dsmash punish, which you phase through with Activation intangibility for an awesome punish.

I'm not sure about true. I was reading something recently that it depends on how soon you grab the edge after they do, sooner the better. However, that was not tested much. However, yeah, reverse air slash is our best option yet

Here's how it works:

Any time anyone grabs the ledge, there's a 20 frame window where nothing can happen. You can't drop down, you can't get up, and you can't get trumped. If you buffer a jump or roll during this window, you will NEVER get trumped.

If you grab the ledge at the very end of that window, your opponent will be instantly trumped, but you will need to wait out the full 20 frames before you can do any action. With this timing, nothing is guaranteed off the trump.

If you grab the ledge one frame after your opponent does, they will have a full 19 frames to react to you doing so, but if they fail to buffer a getup option, they will be trumped at the end of the window. Once that happens, you will be able to ledge drop air slash one frame later, which is probably guaranteed on the full cast.

Between these two extremes is the timing of any given trump. Later trumps are less react-able, but also give you less frame advantage. Characters who are popped far off the ledge or have small hitboxes will get missed by Air Slash at various times on this scale.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm sorry that I've been really inactive with this thread, but it's mostly because of things going gradually along the way & nothing really to show for what I've learned & discovered whether it's vital or not. I just feel like Shulk is so amazing in Doubles & my scene acknowledges that, to the point that I'm more proud of my Doubles performance all the time than my Singles. So yeah. Doubles Shulk is love.

 

[notyourparadigm]

Hey everyone! I finally finished the Monado Purge video, please give it a watch! The percentages on each character are still being labbed by GetShulked, but a fair portion of the cast is already done!

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

So, there's been something kinda small l've been wondering about that you guys might be able to help on. When should l generally focus on MALLC spacing and when would it be better just to be in Speed or maybe Jump for the neutral game buffs. Or is it more of a preference thing?

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

My generally gameplan is to MALLC a safe back air on shield whenever Shulk reverts back to his vanilla state and play in that Art for its duration, most generally Speed.

TANGENT INCOMING:
Speed is the go-to Art in neutral in my opinion, as you do not take any defensive nerfs. Jump and Buster can also play the neutral fairly well, though only in certain situations. Jump art, for example is hindered pretty severely on Battlefield (as you will land on the lower platforms from a short hop), and Buster isn't mobile enough for my liking on wide, open stages like FD. Jump, however, is amazing on FD, as there is tons of room to freely jump around. Battlefield, on the other hand, is a rather compact stage, allowing Shulk to focus more on his ridiculous disjoints rather than movement. Therefore, Buster is a great Art to use on BF.
TANGENT OVER

As for focusing on spacing with MALLC, back in the early days, I remember that 9B utilized a "successive MALLC" playstyle where he would almost exclusively focus on using MALLCing to throw out safe back airs. This strategy is very dependent on you not messing up your timing, and I'm pretty sure fast characters can punish you in the air while you are switching your Art. Powershielding generally beats this strategy, too. You can certainly make MALLC an integral part of your gameplan, but I wouldn't recommend having your entire playstyle revolve around it, as you would be ignoring Shulk's other good tools.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

My generally gameplan is to MALLC a safe back air on shield whenever Shulk reverts back to his vanilla state and play in that Art for its duration, most generally Speed.

So, basically MALLC when you want to use an Art? Looks like how Darkwolf does it, from what l've seen (lol, 1 match. But he seems really good).

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

So, basically MALLC when you want to use an Art? Looks like how Darkwolf does it, from what l've seen (lol, 1 match. But he seems really good).

Essentially. Darkwolf is easily my favorite Shulk to watch. His MALLC game is always on point, and he isn't at all afraid to go offstage to use Shulk's great edgeguarding tools. He goes in, much like I do.

 

[Masonomace]

Hey look. . .it's Mace de-railing the topic again!. . .(I'm sorry)

Recently been labbing something slightly different from the usual frame skipping & the like. This is about short hopping & fast falling within a window forgiving enough to still take Soft Lag & not Hard Lag like I usually had myself believing in. So with that said, made an edit to the OP if you want to give it a look.

*Also included info about Short Hop Airdodge (SHAD):

Soft Landing & Hard Landing
Soft Landing Lag is seen on the left side of the image below, which looks like he's bending both knees with a small circular wave of smoke that dissipates quickly. This happens when you perform an empty short hop with Vanilla, Speed, & Shield art. However, Shulk can apply a fastfall & still result with Soft Lag if timed correctly.

Hard Landing Lag is seen on the right side of the image below, which looks like he's taking a kneel down with his right knee to the floor upon landing with a larger circular wave of smoke. In any art especially Jump art, this happens when you empty short hop & fast fall too early, full hop with & without fast falling, & doublejumping with & without fast falling.

Either state of landing lag will occur unless an aerial, airdodge, or a special move is used resulting with a different kind of landing. Shulk's airdodge landing lag animation is identical to his Hard Landing Lag state you see on the right, except that airdodge landing lag is more frames. Even the one autocancel that Vanilla Shulk & Jump Shulk share which is full hop forward air suffers Hard Landing Lag, so the one shared Fair autocancel is not very helpful or impressive.

Here's some sort of Venn diagram showing what option gets what kind of lag state:

*NEW* short hop fastfall labbing
I've lead to believe myself this whole time that whenever you input a fastfall during a Short Hop, you'd always get Hard Landing Lag. However, this self-assumption that I've chosen to put trust in due to my lack-off labbing has been recently been debunked, sort of. You can't apply a fastfall early. . .you just have enough air time frames. This can work with every art except Jump art because it takes Hard Lag whether you short or full hop, so this labbing doesn't particularly matter to the art.

普 (Vanilla): short hop fastfall begins as soon as frame 21 | SH air time is 39 frames.
-Input a fastfall within the frame 33-39 window to get the Soft Landing. Otherwise, a fastfall input within the frame 21-32 window induces Hard Lag.

疾 (Monado Speed): short hop fastfall begins as soon as frame 18 | SH air time is 34 frames.
-Input a fastfall within the frame 27-34 window to get the Soft Landing. Otherwise, a fastfall input within the frame 18-26 induces Hard Lag.

盾 (Monado Shield): short hop fastfall begins as soon as frame 19 | SH air time is 35 frames.
-Input a fastfall within the frame 28-35 window to get the Soft Landing. Otherwise, a fastfall input within the frame 19-27 induces Hard Lag.

Short Hop Airdodge
普 (Vanilla) & 盾 (Monado Shield)
Summary: Both Vanilla & Shield art's SHAD autocancel, which is pretty neat. Vanilla's full-on drifting SHAD has average airspeed that can travel about 1/3 length of FD, while Shield art's full-on drifting SHAD has very poor airspeed that travels about 1/6 length of FD. Rolling overall covers about 1/5 length of FD, so there's that comparison. Shield art's SHAD is meh as a mixup but a decent evade option for if you ever feel like not using your godly bubble shield. Stay grounded like usual, & go for empty hops into surprise dash attack or dash grab. The only differences between Vanilla & Shield art is whether you'd choose to be closer to the ground with smaller short hops traveling less distance, or be in the air for a little longer with a higher short hop traveling more distance. For how defensive Shield art is though, I'll give a quick math rundown: out of the 35 total frames of air time in Shield art's SH, only the first two frames of air time followed by the 7 air time frames after AD intangibility finishes including the two frames of Soft Lag. . .you're only vulnerable for a total of 9 air time frames plus two landing lag frames before holding shield. Vanilla is vulnerable for a total of 12 air time frames plus two landing lag frames before holding shield. The comparison isn't much, & the You decide~

翔 (Monado Jump)
Summary: An empty Short or Full Hop induces Hard Landing so applying fastfall is not a bad option, but there are trade-offs whether you do or don't apply it. Jump art's SHAD autocancels with Hard Lag, but one full-on drifting SHAD covers about 1/2 length of FD using amazing airspeed & the sliding friction across the ground upon landing. With this, you can really make it hard for someone to hit you which is great since you take additional damage from being hit in Jump art anyhow! The cost of using a AD in your SH is that you can't fastfall at all, so you sacrifice mixup aggression that makes Jump art's SH fearsome in Neutral. The trade-off of using SHAD over SHFF is that despite your SHFF mixups become unusable, SHAD is only vulnerable during the first two frames of air time followed by the 15 frames of air time after AD intangibility finishes (this is a total of 17 remaining vulnerable frames of air time out of 43 total frames of air time). The SHAD's landing slide across the ground is large & the defensive nature of the input maintains a high level of safety that not very many characters could contest in hopes to punish you.

疾 (Monado Speed)
Summary: SHAD on its own without anything else is pretty bad because of the fact that you take airdodge landing lag, which is 21 frames. On the other hand, it's not a bad option if you choose to buffer input a doublejump, aerial, or special move before landing so that you don't take airdodge's horrendous landing lag. The better options to input after a SHAD would be Nair for the low landing lag, or to doublejump towards or away from your opponent. Although, a special move given the right moment can be effective too. Mostly though for Speed art you'll want to go for empty hop mixups into an instant landing to running grab or pivot option from out of nowhere for a surprise factor. The SHAD itself will cover a little over 1/3 length of FD (the third SHAD lands on the ground, sliding off the ledge, only suffering some of the airdodge landing lag).

 

[ZcK]

Here you can appreciate a perfect landed MALLC, with the F-air delayed as much as possible. So that the moment the hitbox comes out the next instant you are already on the ground and MALLC is activated. Giving Shulk many potential options before the opponent could act.

I got a question however as Im not too savy on frame analysis.
In a magical theorical world the moment you land after hitting an opponent shield with F-air then he would incur 6 frames of shieldstun and thus Shulk would be at a relatively tremendous frame advantage. My question is, could this be even possible? Obviously considering it is done frame-perfect.

Because then what could the opponent do then? OOS options as grabs or even jumps take at the least 4 to 7 seven frames before they come out, adding the shieldstun frames then Shulk can jab or even grab them before their fastest option comes out. Im assuming this with normal shielding, with powershielding however, I think Shulk jab is still faster than any grab so technically he could also beat that, but I´m not too sure how perfect shieldng works so if someone can shed some light on this, I would be grateful.

If any of this ends of being doable, then I think this is were the true power of the Monado might lie.

 

[Masonomace]

In magical theorical world, that would be up there in Shulk's maximum peak of optimization.

The reality though is, the art's activation's timing will differ on whiff, blockstun, & hitstun. This fact completely changes this theoretical advancement. With that in mind, it also comes down to those side factors including the character's hurtbox size, shield size, frame data, etc..

But to go back to magical theorical land, yeah hitting with frame 15/16 of Fair dealing said shieldstun & then going through shield hitlag & all that, landing on the very next frame being the first frame of the art's activation, which is 0 frames of landing lag, that would grant you much more frame advantage. This would allow you to get a free frame 1 shield to either perfect shield or regularly shield any attack, jumpsquat+airdodge drift away from the skirmish position, or challenge their next move option with Jab1 within close range. If your move or their move is spaced, Air Slash OoS would be the best.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that even though it's 0 frames of landing lag with a Perfect MALLC, you still have to take 5 frames of art activation endlag before acting on frame 6. But still, a Jab1 out of a PMALLC can stuff any shieldgrab if they regularly shielded. Perfect shielded will probably punish even Jab1 maybe(?)

 

[Masonomace]

Another Mace Discovery
(Not too important honestly, just another neat-to-know thing).​

Lol, another unexpected discovery I've come across for Back Slash. So I've known for a long time that Back Slash can connect a back-hit on a character forward roll when rolling away from you, but I never explored it in-depth & why it ever happens. And now I'm glad I figured it out.

EDIT: Found some of those "exceptions" I mentioned earlier. Expect a new tier list image soon.

EDIT #2: Complete! Here's the ranking list. Behold:

Spoiler: Data findings

BACK SLASH BUFER TURNAROUND TEST ON FORWARD ROLLS


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-18.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 15-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 15-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 15-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 13-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-19.


Avoids on frame 16 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 18 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-17.


Avoids on frame 18 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-17.


Avoids on frame 16 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-19.


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18 ONLY


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 17-18.


Avoids on frame 22 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 17-21.


Avoids on frame 17 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 20 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-19.


Avoids on frame 19 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-18.


Avoids on frame 19 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-18.


Avoids on frame 19 & onwards. Vulnerable on frame 17-18.


Avoids on frame 20 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onwards. Is vulnerable on frame 17-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 13-19.


Avoids on frame 21 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 15-20.



Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 14-19.


Avoids on frame 18 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 21 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 18-20.


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 18 ONLY


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 21 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-20.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & ownard. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18 ONLY


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 18 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 18-19.


Avoids on frame 15 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 19 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 16-18.


Avoids on frame 31 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 19-30.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 19 ONLY


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 19 ONLY


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 21 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 20 ONLY


Avoids on frame 28 & onward. Vulnerable on frame 22-27.


Avoids on frame 20 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.


Avoids on frame 24 & onward. Is NEVER vulnerable whether you buffer holding or not.

 

[erico9001]

Just realized that Little Mac stage spike on battlefield/omega battlefield/omega wuhu got patched some time ago. A shame! wonder how. Did they change a property of our D-throw? Also doesn't work on G&W anymore either.

Anyways, a couple new videos for everyone!

New AT incoming too, stay tuned

 

[IMßA]

Hey Guys, My brother and I were practicing yesterday, and we might have come across a potential new kill confirm for Shulk. I myself do not main Shulk, but my brother does and has been since Smash 4 came out. Maybe this has been discovered already so please go easy on me if I'm late to the party (again, I don't main shulk myself).

So here we go:

As you all know, when Shulk is in Buster monado, his short-hop n-air can true combo into his f-smash at mid- to high %. This is great, since it gives a ton of damage to the opponent. However this does not kill because of the reduced knockback in buster.

I asked my brother what would happen if you cancel the buster monado right after the n-air hits (MABD). He tried it, and it was an instant kill. From around 60 to 90 % this is is a true combo apparently. I tried DI'ing in, away, and with no DI. I tried jumping away, airdodging... no succes. The hitstun is too long and the kock-back to low to escape it. It killed roy at around 70% (before the n-air hit).

Roy's stage position was about here on FD:

/----------------------------------------|------------------- x -------------------\

So if your opponent is at around 70%, you have a guaranteed kill setup. All you need to do is hit that n-air in buster. As soon as the hit is registered, quickly cancel buster (go vanilla shulk), and finish the combo with a f-smash as soon as you hit the ground. It requires a quick input ofcourse, or else the F-smash will come too late. You HAVE to cancel it before you land.

Input: Jump (short-hop) > A > B+B+B > f-smash (c-stick or directional + A).

Around 95% and above the combo is no longer true, since the knockback becomes too high. Im pretty sure you can kill certain characters close to the edge at 50/60%.

I've never seen any Shulk player do this. I have been victim to the short-hop n-air into f-smash, but they never cancel buster mode before the f-smash. I have seen a buster n-air MABD into air-slash, but this kills around 90-100% at the edge whereas the f-smash version kills much sooner.

This kill-setup might be pretty situational, but usually people do not fear death when Shulk is in buster mode. Since his attacks rarely kill in buster mode (especially on mid-percents). So it might be a great mix-up to throw people of guard and take their stock.

On the slim chance that this is new, this ofcourse needs to be tested. Percents may vary per character, and might not even work on floaties. We haven't tested it further yet. Just wondered what you guys think.

 

[notyourparadigm]

On the slim chance that this is new, this ofcourse needs to be tested. Percents may vary per character, and might not even work on floaties. We haven't tested it further yet. Just wondered what you guys think.

This is a confirm that we are aware of, but thanks for the explanations / diagrams! However, in my experience, MABD confirms from Buster -> Vanilla require a lot of commitment, which can make them suffer in terms of viability. For example, in your example, in order to nair confirm into fsmash, you cannot hold the control stick in any direction while inputting the buffer deactivation. As well, like you said, you have to buffer deactivate prior to landing. These are actually rather significant hindrances, as this means that you are far more susceptible to messing up the inputs.

In order to ensure that the confirm actually occurs, you must begin inputting either with the assurance or assumption that they will be hit by the nair-- I do not believe it is physically possible to react to your nair confirming in time to release your control stick and input the MABD before you land. You have to commit to the input, which leads to a nair that you cannot retreat with (i.e. is shield-grabable as hell). Maybe after a reset this is more viable, but without a proper read / conditioning your opponent is going to have an easy time shielding this confirm, so be careful!

 

[IMßA]

Ok great to hear! Yeah I see what you mean. It's not possible to react to them shielding or not shielding the n-air. But the same goes with a lot of moves ofcourse. With link I can sour spot n-air and confirm to a dash attack at certain %. But I can rarely predict if the n-air is going to hit. But if it does, it can take a pretty early stock if they are close to the blast zone. Sometimes you just have to go for it ^^. Especially if you yourself are not at kill %.

 

[erico9001]

Time for another one!

 

[ArtAtk]

A few of these may have already been recognized during the development of the Vision Sliding video (I haven't been on the Discord since a while), but I've been having a lot of success with some alternative non-platform, non-dair, unbuffered but semi-reliable Vision Sliding setups. If I can find the time I'll upload a video to my channel but basically there are three things I've noticed, and I think I'll order then in terms of importance or usefulness:


1) JUMP ART SH BUFFERED FAIR (FAF FASTFALLED) PSEUDO-BUFFERED VISION SLIDE:


With SH Jump Art airtime being just 1 frame longer than Fair's FAF (43 vs 42), it is actually possible to fastfall with good timing while also psuedo-buffering Vision in order to vision slide fairly reliably, I'd put it on the same difficultly as wavebouncing actually, which means with practice it can become consistent. Effectively, by fastfalling around the FAF of the fair, you are able to compress those last two frames of Jump art SH airtime into less than two frames of airtime, which the game will round down to just 1 frame of airtime, allowing you then to then buffer your Vision on that last compressed airtime frame in order to achieve Vision Sliding. (Edit: it may in fact be three frames compressing into one, since the way dair Vision Slide works is dair has an FAF of 61 and FH has 60 frames of airtime, essentially such that you can buffer Visio N to occur on the landing frame, frame 61...main point is fastfalling in Jump Art especially given it's higher fall speed may be able to compress those remaining airtime (after fair FAF) plus the landing frame such that Vision Sliding is consistently possible to do, I'm not 100 % on the specifics really.


Recalling that Jump Art's Airspeed and sliding distance yield the longest Vision Slides, I think this is actually a super convenient and potentially viable method of Vision Sliding, since you can be weaving back and forth in the air with Jump Art to better position yourself to get hit or even abort the Vision Slide setup if things are not quite lined up right. Coupled with the handy aerial drift freedom I have access to by using the Special Stick down to input Vision (I use Bidou, where the Special Stick down can also double as a means to input fastfall pre fair's FAF as well as "pseudo-buffer" Vision with frame perfect accuracy since it registers as a single frame long directional input, of course it's still possible to achieve this just using regular controls with good coordination as well), it is actually fairly easy to go for a Vision Slide on reaction while maintaining full control of my so-called bait, the whiffed SH Jump Art Fair. Not to mention fair has much less landing lag than dair, and Jump Art's significant landing lag sliding allows Shulk to escape punishment, allowing for potentially multiple retreating or cross up Vision Sliding attempts for as long as Jump Art remains active.


For comparison, an example of a 1 frame offset which can't be used reliably is SH Speed Art buffered airdodge (Speed Art airtime is 35 and airdodge FAF is 34) since you can't fastfall during airdodge, but it is still possible to have an albeit much lower chance (but still better than trying to Vision Slide with no timing strategy at all) of performing a Vision Slide via inputting Vision on the second of the last two frames before landing into the 22 frames of airdodge landing lag (since Speed Art SH airdodge doesn't auto cancel) considering the fact that any Vision input within ten frames of airdodge's FAF will be buffered as a Vision on that second-to-last frame which won't get you the desire Vision Slide (effectively giving you eleven frames to buffer and input an Aerial Vision and only one to input a Vision Slide, but it's still better than nothing, plus it may be worth it to have Speed Arts airspeed and mobility)

2) VANILLA/BUSTER/SMASH FH "APEX" FACILITATED AIRDODGE VISION SLIDE:


While conceptualizing in the past the idea of the Monado Art Beat (1st nine frames of an art cycle where the Kanji behind Shulk will newly materialize and then solidifies) several months ago and different timing applications (for example, Vanilla FH Art Cycle MAB FH-apex airdodge for a visually confirmable near frame perfect Mallc airdodge, where the apex of FH on frame 26 of the 60 frames of FH airtime {such that you would art cycle on frame 17-18 or so in order to align the Kanji solidification either on or a few frames after FH Apex, recalling it takes 45 frames to activate an art} is visually defined by the disappearance of the dust motes that accompany Shulk during his ascent right as he transitions into his descent) which, using the MAB, offer a means of timing near frame perfect Mallc airdodges (since you don't need to worry about hitlag prolonging your airtime)...


Anyways, what's relevant is that this same concept of a Vanilla FH apex airdodge allows you to potentially buffer a Vision on that last frame of airtime since 60 FH airtime frames minus the 26 frames before and including the apex = 34 which happens to be the FAF of airdodge. (EDIT: actually this may be slight less reliable than the Speed Art SH airdodge Vision Sliding Setup I mentioned earlier since in this case you aren't buffering airdodge out of FH apex, you are just delaying your input)


And since airdodge auto cancels on frame 36, if you input airdodge any earlier than the apex of FH (frame 25 and earlier) you won't need to suffer the 22 frame landing lag penalty for messing up the setup by having input airdodge too early; thus, you should be generally aware that if you input airdodge while rising, you will NOT have the opportunity to buffer a Vision Slide.


On the other hand inputting the airdodge too late or after passing the FH apex will cause Shulk to land before the airdodge FAF kicks in, so in this case you won't need to worry about being stuck in a buffered Vision for 75 frames and being punished, as airdodge landing lag is only 22 frames in comparison.


In this way, with some keen vigilance regarding when you input airdodge during your FH with respect to its apex (you want to aim for said apex on frame 26 right when the dust motes disappear) you can choose to forego Vision on reaction if it appears that you accidentally airdodged while rising (too early), and you will be always able to avoid any unwanted and punishable Vision endlag of an attempt to buffer Vision on an airdodge that was input a few frames after FH apex, instead only having to incur 22 frames of airdodge landing lag. In this way, you can very easily avoid whiffing a FH airdodge Vision Slide by knowing not to attempt a buffered Vision after a rising FH airdodge (pre-apex) and also by simply not being able to Vision out of a post-apex airdodge that will land before it's FAF.


3) VANILLA/BUSTER/SMASH FH BUFFERED FAIR/BAIR MONADO SHEATHING ALIGNED UNBUFFERED VISION SLIDE:


Lastly, I haven't extensively tested this but it seems to me that Shulk visually "sheaths" or replaces the Monado onto his back almost exactly a second or 60 frames after inputting his fair, bair, and maybe even his uair (which has an FAF of 60 and will therefore have that same issue of a 1 frame offset as does Jump Art SH Fair, where fastfalling at the right time into a buffered Vision could help make it viable by compressing the last two frames of airtime into one). Since in order to use down special one needs to press down on the L-stick first (which also unavoidably inputs fastfall), this is where again Special Stick (which I use for Bidou already) can make it possible to input a frame perfect Vision while AVOIDING FASTFALL in order to more consistently coincide with this aforementioned Monado sheathing animation on what appears to be the 60th frame (without having actually verified that this is the case in training mode). This is probably as hard as wavebouncing Shulk's Monado Art Activation since the difficulty of the single frame input (3 frame input window for wavebouncing) is offset by the consistent visual indication of the Monado Sheathing animation (whereas, outside of the physical rumble of your controller upon activation, there is no way to know when the art will activate other than muscle memory, good internal timing, godly reaction speed, or the application of the Monado Art Beat as eluded to earlier in 2)


Since fair and bair both provide more spacing than fair, it may be possible to use Vanilla/Buster/Smash FH fair or bair along with this Monado sheathing animation and Special Stick down as a way to semi-reliably Vision Slide, which would allow While to make use of his horizontal hitboxes as a means of baiting opponents into rushing in (with say a telegraphed move like dash attack)and trying to punish your whiffed aerial. This in my mind is more ideal than the dair based Vision Slide setup mainly due to how suspicious it is for Shulk to be randomly dairing while spaced far away from an opponent, since dair has both a lack of horizontal hitboxes and high landing lag, I.e. there is absolutely no good reason to be using it in the neutral, especially at the beginning of a full hop. At least uair has considerably less landing lag despite also lacking horizontal hitboxes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Anyways, I can definitely try to upload a video if ppl are confused or want to see footage of these Vision Slide setups in action. But yeah, these are just some setups I developed which could make Vision Sliding more useful at the expense of fully guaranteed buffering of Vision. But hey, Mallc isn't automatic either right? Practice makes perfect, and the more consistent a technique is the more viable it could potentially be (remember, wavebouncing is still a thing that I think is grossly overlooked in the Shulk Meta but that's just my two cents).

 

[notyourparadigm]

Interesting idea using a fastfall to "squeeze" two frames into one! If you say it's possible to get consistent at, it's definitely something worth talking about. Dragonbrain has mentioned to us that he's randomly triggered Vision Sliding (he claims; no video evidence yet) when performing Ghostwalker (which... also needs a video on it soon) which involves Jump Art + air dodges. He might himself be using this sort of 'frame squish' technique without knowing it. Still, I'd really appreciate seeing video footage of all three methods, if you have the time!

I've been thinking about making a follow-up video to Vision Sliding with some new methods, FAQs + misconceptions, also discussing "Groundnear Vision" since some people seem to confuse the two and have difficulty telling them apart. So many videos to make, so little time ;w;

ArtAtk does this mean you are dipping into the Monado Research life again

 

[Y2Kay]

https://smashboards.com/threads/mas...hread-session-15-shulk-roy-11-28-12-3.438657/

come speak!

 

[erico9001]

Good morning! You probably know why I'm here.

Also, I'm opening a new matchup thread I think