Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Masonomace]

Some educational yet slightly-useless news. Vision's damage caluclations goes like this from what I've gathered:

Afaik, countering a move that deals ~6.166666665% or higher will apply that move's damage & calculate Vision's multiplier (1.3x) to it. So if default Vision countered a move less than that ^, then it'd deal the base 10% damage without the 1.3x multiplier. Theoretically, without testing it since I'm about to leave soon, this means that if you countered a move that deals close to or about 8% or higher, then your Vision will deal a damage higher than the base 10%. Of course it's always better to counter a more powerful move, but at least it takes just 8% to have a slightly stronger Vision attack.

Also, the knockback difference between Vision's base 10% to Mario's Ftilt countered dealing ~9.1% is quite noticeable. Something to note I suppose.

P.S. No one in this game deals 6.2% in Training Mode. Thank Bionis for Lucario's Aura helping me with figuring out more about Vision.

 

[Zatchiel]

Not useless at all Mace. Thanks for the info.

Edit: What is better? I was thinking about art transitions when a though struck me. Is it better to DI or to activate an art? If I get hit be Fox's Usmash at 60%, I know I am going to live. So would it be better to use my time in the air to MALLC or art change? If there is the possibility of a follow-up from Fox, then it would definitely be best too DI, but otherwise, I think it might be best to not DI and activate and Art instead.

Both, either, or neither; I'll explain this in a sec. Just note, as soon as you're hit you can start dabbling with your arts. As soon as you're hit (might be buffering?). And while you're doing so, you can DI, airdodge, or do an aerial attack.

Now, I'll explain what I mean by both, either, or neither. I'll try to stay brief as usual.

Both: Mallc and art change. May want to reverse that order to make sense, but while airborne, you have enough time to deactivate one art and get ready to mallc with another.

Either: Mallc or art change. One requires the other, the other can be done standalone. You'll know which one you have time for, or which would be most appropriate.

Neither: Sometimes it's best to either not switch off or just deactivate for vanilla. An example of the former is if you're in Shield art, an example of the latter is if you're in Smash. It's a matter of safety in this case.

Be cautious and rationalize your art choices before putting them into effect. It only takes a split second. Trust your instincts.

 

[gridatttack]

So I managed to encounter someone online who can perfect shield 90% of the time.
I had a hard time and I always lost.

What do you guys recommend against someone whos proficient powershielding?

I even tried tomahawks, but the opponent had a quick reaction so it was attacking again, and with our frame data, theres nothing much to do. I feel the shield still drops too fast.

 

[Scarhi]

So I managed to encounter someone online who can perfect shield 90% of the time.
I had a hard time and I always lost.

What do you guys recommend against someone whos proficient powershielding?

I even tried tomahawks, but the opponent had a quick reaction so it was attacking again, and with our frame data, theres nothing much to do. I feel the shield still drops too fast.

Yeah, I tend to struggle against those opponents too ^^ After a tomahawk if they manage to grab you before you grab them, you could try empty hop > Dtilt while staying outside of their grab range. Cross-ups are useful too (empty hop behind them > grab should work too) and maybe try mixing up your Nair approaches with RAR Nair to mess up with their timing.

Also, if your short hop approaches get stopped/powershielded, try approaching while staying on the ground, by walking and pressuring them with Dtilt. You could also walk back and forth, wait for them to commit and punish with a grab/Dtilt/retreating Bair or something.

 

[Masonomace]

Extra info about Vision feat. Dr. Mario & Mario. I'd give it a read in case you don't know how Vision works:

Tested on training mode. Dr. Mario respawned from the revival platform to land on the middle of Omega Gaur Plains & used moves to determine the difference between Vision's counter damages without applying DI.

Dr. Mario's Jab1 vs Ftilt
At 176%, Shulk Vision countering a move which in this case was Dr. Mario's Jab1 dealing 2.8% means that Vision's 10% base damage is applied without the multiplier. This shows the Deadly blow effect & KOs Dr. Mario. Although, this was the same result with Dr. Mario's Ftilt even though it deals 7.84%, which is higher than the ~6.166666% threshold. At least it applies the multiplier, but that equals 10.192% which isn't much more.

With Forwarding Vision, Jab1 countered KOs Dr. Mario with the Deadly blow effect appearing at 118% to deal the base 13% base damage without the multiplier. However, the flaw about Forwarded Vision becomes apparent when the move's damage is higher than the threshold but doesn't deal damage higher than the Forwarded 13% base damage, because Forwarded Vision's damage is the same as regular Vision after passing the threshold. So Dr. Mario's Ftilt countered by Forwarded Vision still only deals 10.192%. Forwarded Vision countering Ftilt KOs Dr. Mario with the Deadly blow effect appearing at 148%.

The good news: Forwarded Vision possesses more KBG, but it has the same knockback angle & BKB as regular Vision as far as we know. This explains why Dr. Mario dies from his countered Ftilt with regular Vision at 176% & then KO'd at 148% by Forwarded Vision.

"So how much damage does a move need to deal to break even or more than 13%?" Approximately 10% or higher. And Dr. Mario's Fair Late dealing 10.08% is just the move to use:

Dr. Mario's Jab1 vs Fair Late
You know Jab1's kill percent with Forwarded Vision, being 118%. As for Fair Late, Shulk's Forwarded Vision KOs Dr. Mario at 117% with the Deadly blow effect appearing. I even fastfell the aerial so I could be closer to the ground for a more accurate result. Fair Late's calculation being 10.08 x 1.3 = 13.104% could have affected the result by the slight ~1% kill difference between Fair Late & Jab1, but I won't go that far to say there's a marginal difference.
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Now let's use Mario, since his moves don't have any messy decimal values. Have some numbers:

Mario Jab1 vs Ftilt
At 176%, Shulk's Vision countering Jab1 KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. And at 196%, Shulk's Vision countering Ftilt KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. Yikes. Ftilt only dealing 7% means that the regular Vision dealt 9.1%.

At 118%, Shulk's Forwarded Vision countering Jab1 KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. And at 165%, Shulk's Forwarded Vision counteing Ftilt KOs Mario while showing the Deadly blow effect. Ftilt only dealing 7% means that the Forwarded Vision dealt 9.1%.

But before I say more, I wanna say that there could perhaps be a thing with something else that Vision applies, but I'll discuss about that later.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So I managed to encounter someone online who can perfect shield 90% of the time.
I had a hard time and I always lost.

What do you guys recommend against someone whos proficient powershielding?

I even tried tomahawks, but the opponent had a quick reaction so it was attacking again, and with our frame data, theres nothing much to do. I feel the shield still drops too fast.

I think MARC would be helpful in that situation. I am still trying to get it's uses down, but it seems like it would work there.

Masonomace could you make a thread called Masonomace's archive of great wisdom? I am not completely serious, but you have these great knowledge posts everywhere and it might be cool/best to get a compendium of all the Shulk Info known.

 

[Masonomace]

Masonomace could you make a thread called Masonomace's archive of great wisdom? I am not completely serious, but you have these great knowledge posts everywhere and it might be cool/best to get a compendium of all the Shulk Info known.

There's already good videos & guides of Shulk info spread around. One day when I get a capture card & make my own videos perhaps I may create videos explaining things about Shulk that are less-known. Custom specials are definitely going to be explained in my videos if I get the time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

There's already good videos & guides of Shulk info spread around. One day when I get a capture card & make my own videos perhaps I may create videos explaining things about Shulk that are less-known. Custom specials are definitely going to be explained in my videos if I get the time.

Is it scary that standard B customs alone make 15 different shulks you have to master? It is kinda crazy.

 

[Zatchiel]

So I managed to encounter someone online who can perfect shield 90% of the time.
I had a hard time and I always lost.

What do you guys recommend against someone whos proficient powershielding?

I even tried tomahawks, but the opponent had a quick reaction so it was attacking again, and with our frame data, theres nothing much to do. I feel the shield still drops too fast.

Two of the hardest things for Shulk to work against are shields, and relatively merciless frame data (Sheik, Fox, etc).

Against shields, aim to challenge them once in a blue moon unless you spy a habit. Throw the opponent off if they're trying to shield your stuff. Pay attention to when they are choosing to shield, and how they like to react out of shield depending on your proximity.

I won't say the overused "don't get predictable." What I will say is don't stay predictable; I'm sure you know when that happens. When you're getting punished for the same thing repeatedly. Stay confident in your ability to confuse.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So I managed to encounter someone online who can perfect shield 90% of the time.
I had a hard time and I always lost.

What do you guys recommend against someone whos proficient powershielding?

I even tried tomahawks, but the opponent had a quick reaction so it was attacking again, and with our frame data, theres nothing much to do. I feel the shield still drops too fast.

Wouldn't the Bair>>Buster-Fsmash be a good combo to pull off if they shield too much?

I often have the reverse problem, my brothers don't shield enough, so it is harder for me to get the various cross-ups. (It isn't a problem for me, no need to give me advice)

 

[gridatttack]

Not really. The guy got powershields 99% of the times.

He also got hang of MALLC, so every time I landed, he jumped away.

Thinking of what happened, I see he was shielding a lot in empty hops. I could have thrown off the timing and get a grab or a jab.
But overall it was annoying as I couldnt land good hits because of the good powershielding reaction.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Not really. The guy got powershields 99% of the times.

He also got hang of MALLC, so every time I landed, he jumped away.

Thinking of what happened, I see he was shielding a lot in empty hops. I could have thrown off the timing and get a grab or a jab.
But overall it was annoying as I couldnt land good hits because of the good powershielding reaction.

I think that is one of Shulk's main weaknesses. If he ever gets buffed, I can see that weakness being lessened instead of the frame data. I don't see how they could do it though...

 

[TruFor]

Not really. The guy got powershields 99% of the times.

He also got hang of MALLC, so every time I landed, he jumped away.

Thinking of what happened, I see he was shielding a lot in empty hops. I could have thrown off the timing and get a grab or jab.
But overall it was annoying as I couldnt land good hits because of the good powershielding reaction.

If someone starts to powershield everything, it normally means that you are too predictable / he has an easy time to react to your approaches. So i would avoid full hop aerial / tomahawk appraoches in this case, since your opponnent has enough time to react accordingly. Go for alot of mixups with short hops, run pass him, or walking. Actually, you don't have to approach your opponnent directly like that, where you force a 50/50 scenario with aerials or empty hop grabs, since it's too risky. So normally, attacking when your opponnent has time to shield is commitment. What i'd suggest you to do is to move around much more, so practice movement options like fox trot cancelling in speed art etc. . Bait him with throwing out safe moves outside his range (dtilt, nair) or just move around and do nothing. If you really want to commit for a direct aerial approach, then i'd always go for a short hop well spaced/cross up aerial since it's more difficult to react to.
And btw. MALLC approaches (especially if your opponnent knows about MALLC) and empty hop grabs are both nothing more than mixups, which means that you shouldn't use them that much (maybe 2 times a stock).

 

[Sonicninja115]

If someone starts to powershield everything, it normally means that you are too predictable / he has an easy time to react to your approaches. So i would avoid full hop aerial / tomahawk appraoches in this case, since your opponnent has enough time to react accordingly. Go for alot of mixups with short hops, run pass him, or walking. Actually, you don't have to approach your opponnent directly like that, where you force a 50/50 scenario with aerials or empty hop grabs, since it's too risky. So normally, attacking when your opponnent has time to shield is commitment. What i'd suggest you to do is to move around much more, so practice movement options like fox trot cancelling in speed art etc. . Bait him with throwing out safe moves outside his range (dtilt, nair) or just move around and do nothing. If you really want to commit for a direct aerial approach, then i'd always go for a short hop well spaced/cross up aerial since it's more difficult to react to.
And btw. MALLC approaches (especially if your opponnent knows about MALLC) and empty hop grabs are both nothing more than mixups, which means that you shouldn't use them that much (maybe 2 times a stock).

MALLC is only a mix-up? Once or twice a stock? MALLC is a free, easy art change that is unpunishable and can actually hurt the opponent if done correctly. At a higher level, MALLC leads into shield breaks and death combos....

 

[gridatttack]

I suppose he had MU experience too. Like, we were starting the first game, and in the first 10 seconds, he was powershielding everything I did.

But yeah, I suppose I need to be less predictable. Also I feel im too aggro, like I always jump in straight ahead and try to make stuff happen. I wonder if thats not the best way to play Shulk, as fellow Shulk main here where I live plays more defensively. Thanks for the tips TruFor!

 

[WindHero]

I suppose he had MU experience too. Like, we were starting the first game, and in the first 10 seconds, he was powershielding everything I did.

But yeah, I suppose I need to be less predictable. Also I feel im too aggro, like I always jump in straight ahead and try to make stuff happen. I wonder if thats not the best way to play Shulk, as fellow Shulk main here where I live plays more defensively. Thanks for the tips TruFor!

I can relate to this. One thing I've been seeing a lot lately, especially on FG, is that I have one very nasty habit that gets exploited all the time: I often tend to drift back toward my opponent after getting knocked back. Heck, sometimes they edgeguard me that way, when I have enough air time to hang back a little and still reach the ledge. Defensive playing really is a good way to go, especially when the opponent doesn't have projectiles. Shulk does best when walling out opponents with superior range, which is sometimes easier if they approach you... Just not against Diddy Kong or Sheik, they can move and attack fast enough that walling them is hard when you just stand there.

 

[B1_]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lAtz4HszlXI
I think these types of MALLC'S need some attention in the shulk metagame.

 

[Zatchiel]

I suppose he had MU experience too. Like, we were starting the first game, and in the first 10 seconds, he was powershielding everything I did.


But yeah, I suppose I need to be less predictable. Also I feel im too aggro, like I always jump in straight ahead and try to make stuff happen. I wonder if thats not the best way to play Shulk, as fellow Shulk main here where I live plays more defensively. Thanks for the tips TruFor!

That's I how prefer to play him too. Trust me, I know your pain.

Unfortunately for someone as slow as Shulk, there is such a thing as too much aggro in a hanful of matchups. Just try to pace yourself more, even when you don't think you have to. You'll get accustomed to doing so when you really have to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lAtz4HszlXI

I think these types of MALLC'S need some attention in the shulk metagame.

Erico touched on this in his mallc video. I remember it rather clearly since it's a huge part of how I learned it. Your video doesn't highlight the potential difference in shield safety, but from what I can tell that might be something to look into. Otherwise, from my experience with it, it was much flashier than it was useful.

Anywho, short hop mallc works best (and marvelously) with Jump and Speed. Don't have to touch the ground or exhaust a midair jump to see either of them through. Plus you get combos that work 'til percents quite later than the other arts.

 

[Sonicninja115]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lAtz4HszlXI
I think these types of MALLC'S need some attention in the shulk metagame.

That is a great way to pressure. Plus, they don't know if you are going to put out an attack in defense, empty hop or approach. I am going to start learning that.

 

[ZcK]

I talked about them few pages ago
Short hop fast fall mallc only works on shield and it may go unpunished close range if you re fast enough I posted a video a few pages back
It works well if they lack missiles or dont attack you everytine you jump because they know you are slower then them
By they way buster up throw againist fast fallers then jab neats 30% of damage at 40 or such percents, fox specially loves this

 

[B1_]

Nah these MALLC's do midigate the landing lag you take if you hit your opponent with this type if MALLC, not just on shield. The window for this opertunity however is pretty strict so keep that in mind, Its a very precisice timing, and it requires alot of finger and hand dexterity but it works. And it does get alot easier over time, practicing successive SH MALLC however is a way harder challenge since you have to mash the b button way faster. Also, this can actually improve your monado activation and deactivation skills. Ill make another video demonstrating that it works later today

 

[gridatttack]

Yeah, SH MALLC is the only one I can't do. For some reason I either activate the art too early.

But that seems like a good way to pressure and mix things up.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Did you guys know that you can cancel DA with grab? It actually gives a bit of a boost too. @meleebrawler and I were testing it out with Mewtwo, because when Mewtwo does his DA, he has a sound that starts immediately, making it rather obvious if you get it.

The acronym is either DAGC or DACG.

Edit: it is a lesser known tech called boost grabbing. Pepespain has a video on it.

 

[Fenriraga]

Sorry if this has been noted or mentioned before, but I want to start helping here and I'm testing out what I feel is possibly a true combo with Shulk.

Starting with your foe somewhere close to or at 0%, no rage, with Speed Arts active, going from:

SH N-air right next to your opponent>Fast Fall as it connects>D-tilt >Chase then Dash Grab as they're hit stunned>F-Throw immediately>Chase and finish with a Short hop F-air

seems to be a pretty reliable combo for me and nets about 26-27% at the start of a lot of my matches. I've been trying it more religiously all day on training mode on different characters, it mostly seems to work on most of the cast but I can't test it with DI for obvious reasons. I have done it some at my local tourney, but I still can't pinpoint how much of it is actually a true combo, if at all, or if any steps can be modified and improved.

Tomorrow I'm going to try and get a recording of it using the dumb old YouTube feature on Smash itself and convert it to a gif to show what I mean, but can anyone else confirm or test this for me?

 

[OllieWG♪]

Sorry if this has been noted or mentioned before, but I want to start helping here and I'm testing out what I feel is possibly a true combo with Shulk.

Starting with your foe somewhere close to or at 0%, no rage, with Speed Arts active, going from:

SH N-air right next to your opponent>Fast Fall as it connects>D-tilt >Chase then Dash Grab as they're hit stunned>F-Throw immediately>Chase and finish with a Short hop F-air

seems to be a pretty reliable combo for me and nets about 26-27% at the start of a lot of my matches. I've been trying it more religiously all day on training mode on different characters, it mostly seems to work on most of the cast but I can't test it with DI for obvious reasons. I have done it some at my local tourney, but I still can't pinpoint how much of it is actually a true combo, if at all, or if any steps can be modified and improved.

Tomorrow I'm going to try and get a recording of it using the dumb old YouTube feature on Smash itself and convert it to a gif to show what I mean, but can anyone else confirm or test this for me?

I found this combo a few weeks ago but i prefer to use Nair again after the F-throw so i can set up for another grab.
It's a fairly good combo that's landed me so much starting percent occasionally.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I found this combo a few weeks ago but i prefer to use Nair again after the F-throw so i can set up for another grab.
It's a fairly good combo that's landed me so much starting percent occasionally.

You guys do know we have a combo thread right?

 

[OllieWG♪]

You guys do know we have a combo thread right?

Yeah just thought i'd share that, I'll go there soon it's just I occasionally look here to see what's new and what's going on with the Shulk metagame. I really don't participate but...I thought i'd give it a try.

 

[ZcK]

So how safe is an approach involving a reverse nair coming from SH Jump ?

If the opponent finds himself shielding and you approach this way the momentum jump carries put you behind his shield making it quite safe i think. However there´s only a hitbox at your back by the time you start the attack so basically this is quite risky againist very offensive players.

Im not sure how safe it might be to throw out this from time to time buuuut this setup leads into some death combos, since the momentum you have carries itself when you land with Jump and if the Nair manages to hit at the right angle the opponent will fly just behind you, as you slide a bit because of jump, in a very convenient angle where D-air or even B-air can combo, the latter specially works at relatively late percentages, Air slash combos too but since Jump is active shulk doesnt hit the opponent with the second hit most of the time unless rage or sometthing.

 

[Zatchiel]

So how safe is an approach involving a reverse nair coming from SH Jump ?

If the opponent finds himself shielding and you approach this way the momentum jump carries put you behind his shield making it quite safe i think. However there´s only a hitbox at your back by the time you start the attack so basically this is quite risky againist very offensive players.

As it stands, Shulk doesn't have any approach options that are exactly "safe." But Jump n-air is much safer than a lot of options Shulk possesses.

As far as reversing it goes, I don't know if anything quite changes. The landing frames are identical, as is the data vs. shield. So it may just come down to preference. I personally like to just tap the opponent's shield with drifting n-air and carry myself as far behind them as possible.

If n-air ever feels too risky in Jump, just remember you can use FH f-air for clearance. Just n-air before you touch the ground to negate landing lag.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was testing MARC, when I found something. It is possible to cancel Shulk's monado animations with any input, so it is possible to dash in the opposite direction once the monado activates. It could be useful in speed. Run away, MARC, Dash towards opponent.

 

[FOcast]

I was testing MARC, when I found something. It is possible to cancel Shulk's monado animations with any input, so it is possible to dash in the opposite direction once the monado activates. It could be useful in speed. Run away, MARC, Dash towards opponent.

Yup, I like to use this to mix people up during their invincibility frames after I get a kill.

 

[Rawbinator]

So from the Competitive Discussion forum there are already some patch changes...Shulk got damage buffs! Looks like +.5% to tilts, aerials and dash attack. I think they haven't got frame data yet

 

[Masonomace]

Guess I have lots of Damage Tables to update. . .=D. . .=/

 

[WindHero]

Really praying that we get some frame buffs... Since .5% across the board doesn't fix any of our fundamental weaknesses. -_-

 

[Sonicninja115]

.5% buffs hitstun, not KB. This might allow a lot of moves to true easier and unlock a lot more combos.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Shulk received a 2 Frame reduction on the landing lag on all aerials. This makes Shulk's nair share the same landing lag as ZSS. No startup frame buffs noted, but it's some. Fair has gone from ~21 frames of landing lag in the 3DS days to 16.

The damage increase + loss of some landing lag should make nair even safer on shield. It was neutral on shield drop before given optimal conditions (hit with beam, land just about the frame after you hit shield with it).

This patch seems similar to 1.0.4 for Shulk, .5% on most moves and some landing lag reductions.

Sonicninja115 More damage should mean more knockback if the BKB and KBG values havent changed.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Shulk received a 2 Frame reduction on the landing lag on all aerials. This makes Shulk's nair share the same landing lag as ZSS. No startup frame buffs noted, but it's some. Fair has gone from ~21 frames of landing lag in the 3DS days to 16.

The damage increase + loss of some landing lag should make nair even safer on shield. It was neutral on shield drop before given optimal conditions (hit with beam, land just about the frame after you hit shield with it).

This patch seems similar to 1.0.4 for Shulk, .5% on most moves and some landing lag reductions.

Sonicninja115 More damage should mean more knockback if the BKB and KBG values havent changed.

Yeah, I was tired when I wrote that.

They nerfed diddy's Dtilt a couple of patches ago. They change it damage from 5.5 to 5. This made Dtilt-Usmash only work in a ten percent window instead of twenty.

 

[kenniky]

I think tipper nair is safe on shield now. It was +0 before the patch iirc, so now it's at least +2 (not accounting for damage increase)

uair hit 1 true combos into utilt and Air Slash at any percent. Might also be possible to link it into usmash, ftilt, or jab. Opponent usually falls out of air slash though

 

[gridatttack]

I have to wonder, does ledge trump to Air slash is any useful? Would help getting some kills.

Just got the idea watching M2K mention this for cloud in his first impressions.

 

[FOcast]

I have to wonder, does ledge trump to Air slash is any useful? Would help getting some kills.

Just got the idea watching M2K mention this for cloud in his first impressions.

Yes, ledge trump -> Air Slash is amazing. Be careful, though - different characters have different trajectories that they follow when trumped. I had a very hard time landing the setup on Fox or Falco, as they move too far too quickly. I don't know to what extent it's guaranteed on what characters, but it's an extremely powerful option that can kill at 80-100 in Smash.